Moparts
W9 or P7 ?
Posted By: W5Dart378
W9 or P7 ? - 12/23/07 04:36 PM
I'm trying to decide which to go with on my new combo as I have a nice set of 270cc W9s and a set P7s I couldn't pass up. This will be 440" max single stage nitrous plate, leafsprings,28x10.5s. Need to run 5.30s in the eigth at 3200# W9 or 3300# P7. With the new XR block coming I guess I'm gonna go all the way, instead of putting the W9s on my X block.
Looking for some opinions, haven't heard of any 4" stroke P7 combos, or any killer W9 combos. Anyone?
Posted By: DemonDust
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/23/07 04:42 PM
Well thats a hard decision. If you already have the W9's I'd use them. But then again by Februrary or March you caould have a XR block and you can buy complete P7 heads now for much less than W9's.
Hard choice. I guess it all depends on how much money you want to spend
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/23/07 05:00 PM
Quote:
Well thats a hard decision. If you already have the W9's I'd use them. But then again by Februrary or March you caould have a XR block and you can buy complete P7 heads now for much less than W9's.
Hard choice. I guess it all depends on how much money you want to spend
From what I read, he has both sets of heads, if this
is the case I'd look at the P7, its different and
I think it has more potential
Posted By: W5Dart378
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/23/07 07:57 PM
Yea, it looks like the P7 would make a little more power.
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/23/07 11:38 PM
I'd like to have put this simple 440W9 Bracket combo on a DTS dyno.... Should make about 870 based on what I've seen (10% more) If it had more cam in it (was 274 @ .050) probably had bit left in it as well. So with different cam, carb & little more tune time, I bet it would tickle 900 on a typical DTS.
I think same motor with good set of Cup P7's on it "should" be 60-70 better. I think a 476ish inch type P7 with between 14-16:1 & big roller will make around 1000 on a "normal" dyno. Biggest thing limiting the P7 for use on big CID & making massive HP is the intake valve size... Yeah they flow alot, & have alot of cross section, but the throat area & valve curtain area is the #1 limiting factor. Most of those heads are 2.20" valve deal....
NE1 have pics of P7 motors, heads and intakes you could post, i'd like to learn more please.
Posted By: PUNK
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/24/07 02:12 AM
Quote:
Yea, it looks like the P7 would make a little more power.
Holy Smokes!!! Is that a W5 head on the bottom. I knew the P7s were big but WOW! I didnt realize. Im so nervous about buying used Nascar stuff, or else I would buy some P7 top end stuff and then be patient for the XR2 blocks that will fit P7 stuff. Im anxious to see how the XR2 blocks and the P7 heads work out. If I could get the heads, I would like basically everything including rockers,valves, valve covers. I think this stuff will be fun. All the cup rockers are crazy ratios it seems, like 1.95:1 ratios.
Posted By: Leon441
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/24/07 03:11 AM
I would not waste my time putting a W9 head on a X block. 59 degree lifters with 1 7/8 lifter spacing. NO WAY NO HOW
But realistically that W9 on a R3 block is going to struggle to make 900 HP unless you run sheetmetal intake and two fours. I make 900 with a cast intake and single four so all of a sudden others think it is easy. It would be if you run two fours and a sheetmetal intake. Cylinder heads are everything. If CFE was so easy to match he would not have gotten all the Pro Stock truck business. I have ran large bore small blocks with big arms and smaller arms the only difference is torque. I like the difference you feel it in the seat on the shift.
I own two sets of P7 heads they flow great numbers but no better than the CFE W8's. I do not plan to gain a thing in HP switching over to the P7's. What I plan to gain is races as if I hurt something I was able to afford spare parts. With the W8 CFE that was not possible and repairs were expensive and pretty much had to be done by CFE if you didn't want some bonehead screwing them up. Tim Davis ran very successful with his W8 heads in PRo Comp. He sat on P7 bare castings that could have been done specifically for drag racing from the start and did not. Not that going with a custom CNC P7 for drag racing is not potentially better than the W8 because it is but the weight break would have made it no worth while. But we are not talking about CFE CNC P7 heads we are talking about old NASCAR takeoffs. They are real nice but no comparison to what could be done from scratch.
If you can afford the wait you should be able to have a P7 XR realistically together sometime mid summer. I have an engine so I can gamble. If the engine sells I have plenty to do while the car sits. So I am rolling the dice on the P7 XR. I plan to build 460-480 CID to start and experiment. After seeing what this stuff is capable of I plan to stretch out and probably have built some Drag Race P7 heads and see how big I can make a small block. With a sheetmetal and two fours 1,000 should be no problem. Limit it to a single four cast intake maybe 930 in a perfect combo.
Like parts of the anotomy every one has an opinion.
Leon
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/24/07 04:42 AM
I've picked an entire P7 top end (machined heads w/ titanium valves, ported manifold, TD rockers and stands, valve covers etc..) in anticipation of the XR block, and I grabbed a pair of P7 bare castings and intake off EBAY, so I'm glad to hear you say one could start from scratch on the P7 heads and have them done specifically for drag racing.
P7 Stuff is super cheap right now. The bare heads were 180.00 shipped!
Posted By: STEFF
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/24/07 04:11 PM
Leon, do you know your 10 degree CFE W8's compare to CFE's 15 degree inline Small Chevy Heads?
Posted By: Leon441
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/24/07 06:27 PM
No, Steff and the W8's I have are 13 degree not 10 degree. I know you did not imply this but they are not Pro Stock truck heads but are expremely similar. I have not talked to Carl lately but my understanding was the W8's I have are better. Carl has said they were the best inline valve stuff available.
There is nothing wrong with the CNC'ed P7 NASCAR stuff I have two sets. But if I were going all out I would have bare casting sitting in CFE's shop. When you start talking about making 900+ with anything you need to be realistic about the limitations. Personally I am not going to be worried about HP on nuts with the P7 I intend to spray my way to the finish line very quickly. And when I tear it up the dimestore prices of the used Nascar P7's is going to be great.
Huray MOPAR on a budget.
Leon
Posted By: STEFF
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/25/07 03:49 AM
The only reason I ask is a buddy of mine, using the 15 degree Chevy CFE's on a 427" motor with a BES modified W789 intake & dominator made about 975hp. The motor went 8.49 @3000lbs. I'm kinda' suprised that 900 would be the cap for a w8 or 9 motor with a single 4, if the heads are equally as good. Apperently Bishoff really knows how to make that intake work & yes this motor was set on kill......valve spring eater, high maintainence etc...
Posted By: FASTFISH420
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/25/07 05:42 AM
Steff,
I know what you are talking about when it comes to HP.I know which motor you are talking about and Davis built a 418 inch chevy that makes the same power with the same intake and he said my heads flow alittle better than his,but the power output of the chevy versus mopar is way off.The chevy still makes more power.Tim still to this day scrathes his head over this and cant come up with a good conclusion....
Posted By: Leon441
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/26/07 02:45 AM
Tony told me he could easily get another 50 HP out of my intake. We then removed the intake to get the engine in the truck without the trailer hitting it. We found that two of the dividers on the intake the gasket has slipped into the runner. I could not begin to guess how much this lost. Tony said that Tims sheetmetal engine makes big power and would not say how much. But, he did say if he did some intake work and a new set of gaskets I could be real close. I just could not see doing it when the car was so far off to begin with.
LEON
Posted By: FASTFISH420
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/26/07 03:10 AM
Leon,
50hp is very hard to believe.My engine has the good intake that Tony is speaking of,and tim told me it is more like 15hp.So I dont believe your intake is that bad...50 hp would be worth the money this thing cost.
Posted By: vc360
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/26/07 12:50 PM
Fastfish you got any pics of your car?
Posted By: Leon441
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/26/07 11:43 PM
My 420 intake is basically out of the box. It runs the same as the ported 772 and the 598. Everyone says the 420 is miles ahead well it would be if ported according to Tony. Funny Tim claimed if I bought an intake from him it would be worth a 100 HP when he wanted $2,500 for one of his when this thing got started. I would not beleive anything that came out of Tim Davis's mouth without checking it out for myself.
Leon
Posted By: FASTFISH420
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 12:00 AM
Leon,
Tim has always been straight up honest with me on hp ratings,Him and Tony are joined at the hip anyway.2500.00 is alittle steep,so is 100hp though....
Posted By: moparacer
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 12:05 AM
Does the P7 NASCAR stuff suffer from some of the problems that the chevy SB2 and SB2.2 heads do? Some of the heads were done for short tracks, restrictor plates etc. and just flat out dont work good for dragracing. I think you really have to do your homework when you buy these cheap heads floating around on the internet.
I have heard of several instances where guys couldnt get them to work and they needed alot of RPM. Some even gave up and went back to conventional stuff....
Posted By: STEFF
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 12:16 AM
Quote:
My 500 intake is basically out of the box. It runs the same as the ported 772 and the 598. Everyone says the 500 is miles ahead well it would be if ported according to Tony. Funny Tim claimed if I bought an intake from him it would be worth a 100 HP when he wanted $2,500 for one of his when this thing got started. I would not beleive anything that came out of Tim Davis's mouth without checking it out for myself.
Leon
what is the 500 intake? I thought there was only the 420, 598, 598ab & 772.
Posted By: LA360
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 12:43 AM
There is several variations, so what you are describing is a definite possibility with the P7 stuff. I have heard of some weird and wonderful ports with these heads.
AL....
the 500 intake is the same as the 420. the whole number is 5007420.
howard
mrsmallblock
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 04:07 AM
Of the ones on ebay, what should we NOT buy. Any signs to look for??
Posted By: LA360
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 04:35 AM
I bought all my stuff through Rick Liuzzo, who has a Ebay site, and the site listed in my Sig.
http://stores.ebay.com.au/Hardcore-Mopar-Race-Parts_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQtZkmI think most sellers use a generic pic, so I would speak to someone like Rick who has some experience with these engines. He'd know which heads to stay clear of.
AL...
here is a picx.
Posted By: STEFF
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 02:16 PM
How much difference is there between the 420 & 598? Is it worth getting a 420 to modify & adapt a Dominator vs modifying a 598?
Posted By: Leon441
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 07:42 PM
I meant to refer to that intake as 420 not 500. They claim there is a tremendous difference due to there is more material to do more work to the intake. I have heard that out of the box they are better but I don't know the 420 was the first I ever ran out of the box if you want to call converting to dominater flange out of the box. My 772 is ported to the extremes as it was run on a 468 Nitrous engine. I really need to work on the 420 but like I said why make HP when the combo does not perform in the car. Fix the problem then find more HP. I am just waiting to go to the track as I think I have a good idea where the problem is.
Leon
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 10:08 PM
598
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 10:09 PM
598AB
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 10:10 PM
420
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 10:12 PM
Magnesium Prototype.....
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 10:13 PM
Twister
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 10:16 PM
772
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/27/07 10:17 PM
772 converted to 4500
Posted By: scottb
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/28/07 01:26 PM
Ryan do you have a picture of the arrington intake by chance you could post thank you
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/28/07 10:46 PM
Quote:
Ryan do you have a picture of the arrington intake by chance you could post thank you
I was going to try to take some at shop today, but we had steady stream of visitors all day & did'nt get around to it.
Posted By: Domino1609
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/29/07 04:39 PM
Quote:
The only reason I ask is a buddy of mine, using the 15 degree Chevy CFE's on a 427" motor with a BES modified W789 intake & dominator made about 975hp. The motor went 8.49 @3000lbs. I'm kinda' suprised that 900 would be the cap for a w8 or 9 motor with a single 4, if the heads are equally as good. Apperently Bishoff really knows how to make that intake work & yes this motor was set on kill......valve spring eater, high maintainence etc...
I am not making this post to start a war but I will say this. A 15^ GM head and a 15^ Mopar head both done by CFE, taking into consideration the fact that both would be built for the same class, the same bore size the same everything. All things given they are almost the same port, now remember I am talking about the generally available stuff not the special PN Mopar W8 heads or the 15^ X heads that never made it to John Q Public
A single 4 drag race motor on kill should make 2.5-2.6 HP per cube with a sheet manifold, a little less with a good cast piece.
Like Leon said, Carl does in fact still to this day say that the W8 is the best small block race head ever made, period.
I do have a set of P7 heads on an R5 that we have been working out for Comp Eliminator. We had every trick in the book done to our W8 stuff (CFE)
and to be honest the P7 heads we have here (started from a bare casting, CFE) have it all over the best W8 heads we had. The problems are that although we have countless R5-P7 parts, nothing will work now, its all custom. But I dont know of anyone else working these out for Comp so like the small inch W8-R4 stuff we had it will take time and time and time and well.....TIME.
Happy New Year to All!!!!
Rick Liuzzo
Posted By: SCDaytona
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/31/07 04:22 PM
Rick: You getting the itch to get back into Comp. or is this P7 engine for someone else? Why not use the P5's?
Posted By: DavidDean
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/31/07 10:21 PM
Very informative post.I'll keep dreaming while playing with my W-2 & W-5 stuff.One of these days I'll step up
Posted By: Leon441
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 12/31/07 10:30 PM
I love my W8 CFE's.
I would not build a round-d-round W8 for what I try to do. That said I am buying up parts to do a round-d-round P7 head engine to spray the crap out of. Can't beat the price of the heads. Now I am running into a delima on valves that were supposed to be dirt cheap. Can not find the size I need. So $2,000 in new valves will ruin the cheap price of what I have.
Leon
Posted By: LA360
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/01/08 12:24 AM
P5? You've got to find them first!
The P7 stuff will make good power, and there's plenty of stuff out there. When you've got a new block coming out, it would make sense to play around with some combinations for prospective clients.
AL....
Posted By: SCDaytona
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/02/08 02:46 PM
If Rick wanted P5's, he could get them pretty easily.
Posted By: quick77rt
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 05:23 AM
Due to the lack of the "other" blocks I just got an R5 for my R5/P7 build.
How many different p-7 intakes are out there....Ive only one...sorta looks like a mini pred intake.
Posted By: Mike Swann
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 02:25 PM
A couple of points to consider.
I have heard that the W9 heads are thin on top and agressive profiles & high RPMS will crack the rocker supports.
There is a 80lb gain with the R5 block.
Hope this helps
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:03 PM
Quote:
A couple of points to consider.
I have heard that the W9 heads are thin on top and agressive profiles & high RPMS will crack the rocker supports.
There is a 80lb gain with the R5 block.
Hope this helps
I dont know what your refering to thin but the valve
cover area is thinner(so called light weight), on
the rocker area, if you use the good rockers, like
TD or Jesel you wont have a problem(at least I havent)
but I have only been turning mine to 8200 rpm but
have been as high as 8600rpm and I dont have any
problems on the rocker mounts. I heard from the race
group at work that they did have pedistal problems
cracking when they first brought out the W-9 but
havent heard of it since then
Posted By: Domino1609
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:11 PM
Actually there were quite a few intake manifolds made for the R5/P7 combination.
I have a few of each here, some of what I have are no longer NASCAR legal, I am not sure why but that is a fact so if you need pictures or info I will try to help.
We have built and dynoed about every combination of parts that are available for the R5-P7 (most in roller cam form) and to be honest I think the port work means more than the part number.
Certainly there are a few manifolds that have much larger volume than others, but as changes were made and time went on the runners became shorter. No doubt the intent was to move peak power up higher in the RPM range.
I have one motor here that makes peak at 9300, not that long ago this thing would have been a decent Comp Eliminator motor, think about it this way, it has a cast manifold, a circle track style cam, 12.5 Compression and was dynoed with a nothing carb.It makes almost 2.4 per cube with break in oil. A few modest changes and it can still be very good.
Actually we are having a few sheet manifolds made for these things, if you think you want to go down that road let us know.
Rick
Posted By: W5Dart378
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:20 PM
There are quite a few P7 intakes:
Posted By: W5Dart378
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:24 PM
2819:
Posted By: W5Dart378
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:26 PM
:
Posted By: W5Dart378
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:28 PM
....
Posted By: W5Dart378
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:29 PM
And another,
Posted By: quick77rt
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:38 PM
Thanks for the intake pics and info, I should be good with mine then since im not trying to squeeze max power.
Although do know one of the intakes makes a few more approx 20 #-s torque at a lower rpm but takes it off the top.
Thanks again.
Posted By: W5Dart378
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:39 PM
Wow this is an old thread.
I'm planning to do a P7 one day. I'm just now getting my W9s on my X block now. On the heads cracking I could see an issue with max porting and the older rocker mount that doesn't have the extra bolt on the ends.
In the classes around hear that my car fits in like ORSCA Modified street, canted valve heads require +100#., and I believe the Realstreet class in Floridia they aren't allowed.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:56 PM
The one thing I'd like to make for my W-9s is a set
of studs for the rocker hold downs that stays in the
head, I've cut the bolts in the intake port for flow
but everytime I take the rockers off I have to make
sure I put the right bolt in the right hole so it
matches up in the port. With the studs I could leave
them in
Posted By: Mike Swann
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 03:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
A couple of points to consider.
I have heard that the W9 heads are thin on top and agressive profiles & high RPMS will crack the rocker supports.
There is a 80lb gain with the R5 block.
Hope this helps
I dont know what your refering to thin but the valve
cover area is thinner(so called light weight), on
the rocker area, if you use the good rockers, like
TD or Jesel you wont have a problem(at least I havent)
but I have only been turning mine to 8200 rpm but
have been as high as 8600rpm and I dont have any
problems on the rocker mounts. I heard from the race
group at work that they did have pedistal problems
cracking when they first brought out the W-9 but
havent heard of it since then
I turned my 540 to 8600 on every pass.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 04:05 PM
I turned my 540 to 8600 on every pass.
I'd go higher if it made power, but mine peaks at
8100 rpm and I cross the line at 8200 so thats all
it takes for me. My new 514 should be a 8500 to 9000 rpm
engine
Posted By: 68CudaB1
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/16/09 04:37 PM
When I spoke to CFE about this same topic here is what they told me.....
A W8 is the better head for all out N/A apps, they did not want anything to do with a W9 casting.
A W8 head will outperform a P7 head IF THE P7 does not have a sheetmetal setup....if the P7 has a sheetmetal, then it will dominate..
They also told me that they were confident that their W8 head would support 1000HP out of 420" and still do it with 15* valve angle
Posted By: LA360
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 01/31/09 10:28 PM
For the coin, the P7 stuff that is around is hard to beat for what you pay. I know first hand what you will spend with CFE for a top end, that money will basically buy you a fresh R5/P7 engine.
W9 heads were designed with a very specific purpose (Dirt Oval Track), where as the W8 had to where several caps figuratively speaking.
If I was looking to build a small block that made 800+ HP I wouldn't look at anything but a P7 head these days.
JMO anyway
AL....
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 07/22/09 06:33 PM
with what i have seen with my buddies extremely tame p7 motor thus far, i think the p7 head is going to have way more potential than a w9 head. just my opinion.
I think with that new block, longer stroke it will allow, it will be hard to keep an optimized combo out of the 8's just on motor even at the weight you are talking. He has already been almost 141 mph with a tiny cam, 12 to 1 compression, and zero tuning at 358 inches using the belt to drive the water pump . Lots of upside to the p7 head with that new block.His convertor was behind another combo nothing like the p7 motor he has, so there is a ton of et in getting that sorted out as well.
Posted By: dizuster
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 07/22/09 11:10 PM
Jeez Don, are you board? Bringing back posts from the dead 6 months later...lol...
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: W9 or P7 ? - 07/23/09 01:14 AM
Quote:
Jeez Don, are you board? Bringing back posts from the dead 6 months later...lol...
yeah, i guess so..lol..until scott got his out a couple of weeks ago, all any of us could do is yap about how we thought they might work.now that he has done it, a little more info is availabe to educate somebody trying to figure out which way to go..