Moparts

Prototype HEMI????

Posted By: StripeHOG

Prototype HEMI???? - 03/18/10 02:10 PM

anyone have any info or photo's of the "Semi-Hemi" prototype of the late 60's????
Posted By: BlakDak

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/18/10 02:34 PM

this one?



search for "ball stud hemi"


http://www.moparaction.com/Article/BallStudHemi/ballstudhemi.html
Posted By: StripeHOG

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/18/10 03:13 PM

that would be the one thank you very much
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/18/10 03:57 PM

Actually THIS is a piece of history.

The pic above was modified (Why Aruzza would customize a piece of history like that is beyond me )

Change the internals, paint it up like a big block chevy, toss the original competition series thermoquad carb in favor of a Holley, toss the original air cleaner and other original external componants, I simply do not get it!

Attached picture 5872996-A279_BallStudHemi_1_Lg.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/18/10 03:58 PM

2

Attached picture 5872999-A279_BallStudHemi_2_Lg.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/18/10 03:58 PM

Article

Attached picture 5873000-A279_BallStudHemi_3_Lg.jpg
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/18/10 03:59 PM

Page 2

Attached picture 5873001-BallStudTQA.jpg
Posted By: Race&Resto

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 01:01 AM

I've always thought someone would take one of these ball stud Hemi motors and build up a 72 Hemi Cuda, 72 Hemi Challenger, 72 Hemi Roadrunner, or 72 Hemi Charger Rallye. You'd have to agree that one of those would look just plain awesome installed in one of those cars.
I read something several years ago that John Arruzza was going to put one of these into a 68-69 Barracuda, so did he ever do that?

Posted By: Chris2581

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 02:33 AM

Quote:

I read something several years ago that John Arruzza was going to put one of these into a 68-69 Barracuda, so did he ever do that?






He put one in the Tom Hoover small block notchback Cuda.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 03:03 AM

I could never understand why Dick basically down graded a hemi by taking out the rocker shafts whick in theory are more stable and put the crappy old ball stud chevy set up on the engine. And how did Dick manage to cast a complete set of totally different heads to bolt on the mopar RB block? Totally amazing what that man did. I have a few pictures of that thing when I was at the Walter P museum a few years back, I has a gold anodized plaque that states what it is on the valve cover.

Wierd lookin, but cool.

Kasey
Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 03:50 AM

A B-block stamped "444 B" ???

Quote:








Quote:

I could never understand why Dick basically down graded a hemi by taking out the rocker shafts which...




Just trying to compete on cost, those other engines are cheap to make.

Posted By: sixpakdodge

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 04:54 AM

Quote:

I could never understand why Dick basically down graded a hemi by taking out the rocker shafts whick in theory are more stable and put the crappy old ball stud chevy set up on the engine. And how did Dick manage to cast a complete set of totally different heads to bolt on the mopar RB block? Totally amazing what that man did. I have a few pictures of that thing when I was at the Walter P museum a few years back, I has a gold anodized plaque that states what it is on the valve cover.

Wierd lookin, but cool.

Kasey




Dick Landy didn't cast the heads or design them for that matter. Chrysler did all that. Dick just did further R&D on it after Chrysler was done.
Posted By: joshking440

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 05:00 AM

is that block a lowdeck???
Posted By: B1Fish540

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 05:26 AM

I assume its a raised deck like the "regular" 426 hemi.

Its weird to imagine ProStock racing if that motor had replaced the Hemi.
Posted By: 69HemiGTX

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 05:33 AM

The actual prototypes were 400s, not 426s. Also, the block was specific to that engine because the bottom row of cylinder bolts were spaced further apart to make room for the exhaust ports. I've always wondered if it would have had the Hemi's clackety clack exhaust note or one of a lame Chevy.
Posted By: b1dartsport

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 06:33 AM

Here's a couple of pics of it in Tom Hoover's notch back Cuda(also was a S & M car) which has since been sold.

Attached picture 5889991-001(436x600).jpg
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 11:08 PM

My biggest question is why the $#&$#*&* would they put a Fram filter on it?
Posted By: cheapstreetdustr

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/27/10 11:56 PM

i recall seein that motor in the cuda at carlisle
but i dont remember the flames...
i thought it was brown...the cuda..
Rip...Dick...
you were a cool guy..
cheapst
Posted By: 8secDart

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 03:18 AM

Quote:

Here's a couple of pics of it in Tom Hoover's notch back Cuda(also was a S & M car) which has since been sold.




I got the flame hood off the Cuda hanging on the shop wall.Very cool (Hoovers mover) is on the scoop.
Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: Race&Resto

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 12:59 PM

Quote:

He put one in the Tom Hoover small block notchback Cuda.



In the article that was posted above it said that the notchback Barracuda was an original 440 car, now I'm curious which is it.

Quote:

Here's a couple of pics of it in Tom Hoover's notch back Cuda (also was a S & M car) which has since been sold.



Does anyone know for sure if this was a small block or big block car, was it a M-code notchback Barracuda originally, anyone ever look at the VIN# of this car.
Posted By: Race&Resto

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 01:25 PM

Quote:

2.





Is this a different engine build, because notice the #'s stamped on the pad of this RB block, as compared to the other low deck B block. There must be more of these ball stud hemi heads floating around, because I've heard that there were a couple of motors or parts & pieces that may have survived over the years.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 02:43 PM

A fine example of the accountants beating the engineers over the head with cost/benefit print-outs ("those rocker parts cost $84.62 to make!!"), and made them re-invent the 1963 Chevrolet Mk I engine.

Advantage 1: cheaper
Advantage 2: fewer parts
You get the point...

But, if it's cheaper and works as well...?
Examine the chamber vs. piston dome: no quench, no swirl, horrible emissions, high knock sensitivity. Bad idea, wouldn't pass smog, just a historical curiosity.
Posted By: rustbuckett68

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 02:55 PM

Wonder if there is any relationship between this engine and the Australian 'Hemi' six?
Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 04:05 PM

Quote:

Wonder if there is any relationship between this engine and the Australian 'Hemi' six?




Yes. In both cases the term 'Hemi' was just a marketing tool and has no technical merit.
Posted By: rustbuckett68

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 04:16 PM

I have read that the 'Hemi' six was developed in the US as a replacement for the leaner (possibly cancelled for production costs) in the late sixties. The reason I asked was that the head layout looks similar. The Aussies did complete the production work IIRC. 302 HP from a 265 six! Must have been a good design. Too bad it never made production.
Posted By: Race&Resto

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 07:28 PM

What about this monster, "the doomsday hemi" who owns this thing now.



Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 07:39 PM

I remember seeing that in one of the mags years ago. Was'nt that supposed to be the NASCAR engine that never was?
Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 07:45 PM

That's the one I want, though that cam belt looks a bit weak for my needs. I don't think that one was ever really developed. It's a lot harder to design an overhead cam setup than a stud-rocker setup. I seriously doubt that Chrysler would have built those even if the sanctioning bodies approved.

Cory

Quote:

What about this monster, "the doomsday hemi" who owns this thing now.




Posted By: Stanton

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 08:14 PM

That overhead cam engine was never meant to be nor did it function. The whole point was to make Nascar believe that if they allowed Ford's SOHC motor to compete then Chrysler would develop and produce their version. In actual fact, the cams in this motor were driven by an electric motor when they brought the Nascar officials in to see it. And they never let them get very close or they would have noticed that it was a pretty crude "prototype". The ploy worked.
Posted By: b1dartsport

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/28/10 08:51 PM




Quote:

Here's a couple of pics of it in Tom Hoover's notch back Cuda (also was a S & M car) which has since been sold.



Does anyone know for sure if this was a small block or big block car, was it a M-code notchback Barracuda originally, anyone ever look at the VIN# of this car.That car was definitly an M code car. When originally raced it had a 513" cheater wedge motor in it built by Jake King. It was originally owned by Bryce Ader,under M&L motors sponsorship of Lexington Ky & did not lose one round of racing in SS/FA in 1969. Bryce traded the car to Sox & Martin in 1970.



Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/29/10 02:05 PM

It's a lot harder to design an overhead cam setup than a stud-rocker setup

But not that hard to convert a pushrod hemi to SOHC - modify the rocker ends and run the cam down the middle where the pushrods came up.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/29/10 02:22 PM

Quote:

My biggest question is why the $#&$#*&* would they put a Fram filter on it?




....Or a Holley carb, or the orange (BBC style) valve covers, or......

Posted By: Race&Resto

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/29/10 03:31 PM



Quote:

Dual overhead cam Hemi.

A pair of 426 dual-overhead cam Hemis might have been produced in 1964 to counter Ford's response to the 1964 426 Hemi, the 427 SOHC, but when NASCAR ruled against Ford's engine, there was no need for the overhead-cam Hemi.

Neither of the DOHC Hemis were ever placed in a car; one was destroyed, the other moved to the Kansas City area. (source: Muscle Car Review. Thanks, Stéphanie Dumas.) Recently, famed engine builder Larry Shepard told us that he has the A-925 cylinder head and other related parts, purchased from the late Dan Napp.

An article by Tom Shaw in Mopar Muscle went into more detail. The DOHC Hemi was project A-925, and it would need to be much more powerful than Ford's SOHC 427, but still rugged enough for racing - and able to conform to NASCAR's rules. Two possibilities were considered, according to Shaw - one using two cams positioned between the heads, in the "valley;" four valves on each cylinder were operated by lifters, pushrods, and lifters. This expensive setup was an unused contingency plan. Nearly as ambitious was an engine with aluminum heads, dual overhead cams, and, again, four valves per cylinder, with pent-roof chambers. (Chrysler had been working with four valve per cylinder engines for a never-completed Indy run in 1963.)

The dual-plane intake manifold had eight runners per side (Chrysler was into efficient and innovative intakes) and made of magnesium - but designed for a single four-barrel carburetor, as required by NASCAR.

The cams were driven by a cog belt, using external cog wheels at the front of the heads. Because the cams were directly above the valves, valvetrain mass was low, so the engine could rev high - a 7,000 rpm redline was specified, high for the era.

Shaw wrote that no DOHC Hemi ran under its own power; they were driven by an electric motor to check the valvegear. Research stopped in 1964 when NASCAR banned the SOHC 427 and Chrysler's own race Hemi. One Chrysler DOHC Hemi reportedly still exists.

Jon Field wrote that there was a third (at least) Mopar DOHC Hemi made — and that he owns it, a 301 cid aluminum-block-and-head engine with twin cams, two cam covers on each head (the plugs are between them), hydraulic tappets, brass valve seats, and four Weber two-barrel carbs (165 cfm each). He says the oil pan holds 10.6 quarts, and that the engine has stainless steel headers, and an aluminum intake; it is apparently functional and runs on regular gas. We don't have any information on where it came from and whether it's a Chrysler effort or an aftermarket modification.

Meanwhile, Chrysler alumnus and historian (of The Ramchargers) David Rockwell told Mopar Action that the A925 engine was a fake — a completely nonfunctional piece meant to impress Bill France into banning Ford’s SOHC engine (Stewart Pomeroy agreed). The one engine was run by an electric motor. The story goes that Chrysler racing chief Ronnie Householder learned about the ban from Bill France, and the engine was then destroyed.




Did a search and found this older moparts thread on the different types of Hemi heads made.
Posted By: 8secDart

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/30/10 02:38 AM

Quote:




Quote:

Here's a couple of pics of it in Tom Hoover's notch back Cuda (also was a S & M car) which has since been sold.



Does anyone know for sure if this was a small block or big block car, was it a M-code notchback Barracuda originally, anyone ever look at the VIN# of this car.That car was definitly an M code car. When originally raced it had a 513" cheater wedge motor in it built by Jake King. It was originally owned by Bryce Ader,under M&L motors sponsorship of Lexington Ky & did not lose one round of racing in SS/FA in 1969. Bryce traded the car to Sox & Martin in 1970.










It was M&L motors in Lexington NC.Yes it was a M code car.Lenny

Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by Defbob - 03/30/10 04:30 AM

Posted By: quickd100

Re: Prototype HEMI???? - 03/30/10 10:02 AM

A few years ago the dual overhead cam motor was in the St. Louis area. I know the name of the guy but don't know if he still has it. Dave
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