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Degreeing a cam in..

Posted By: VernMotor

Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:18 AM

Ok let talk about this some..I wanted my cam in at 102. numbers are intake open at 32 deg and close at 56.5 . that is @ .050 after opening and .050 before closing. Now there are two-three ways to do this.. Not saying any one way is wrong. This is how I do it.. might be wrong ??

add 32+56.5 + 180 = 268.5 div by 2 =134.25 - 32 =102.25
show me your numbers and how you do it.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:44 AM

I like duration at .050 /2 -32
268.5 /2 = 134.25 - 32 = 102.25

or your way.
I have a milidon gear drive and you set the cam @ .050 then turn crank to desired BTDC number then line the top gear up to inner hub there are seven bolt holes. then go through various methods of checking @ .050 .0200 .050 before and after max lift and so on!
I like where you are going to degree it help the big girl get moving!!!
Posted By: BobsProFab

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:49 AM

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob
Posted By: Hunted Duck

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:50 AM

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob

This is how I do mine also.
Posted By: 340B5

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:52 AM

I do it the same, after setting 0 the same way on the crank degree wheel.
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:52 AM

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob



I did that also..it come out the same way..
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:54 AM

Quote:

I like where you are going to degree it help the big girl get moving!!!



Yea I had it at 104.5 ..thought this might help
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:01 AM

Quote:

Ok let talk about this some..I wanted my cam in at 102. numbers are intake open at 32 deg and close at 56.5 . that is @ .050 after opening and .050 before closing. Now there are two-three ways to do this.. Not saying any one way is wrong. This is how I do it.. might be wrong ??

add 32+56.5 + 180 = 268.5 div by 2 =134.25 - 32 =102.25
show me your numbers and how you do it.



Jamie thats the same way I check the numbers but
when I install it I sorta cheat. I have a gear drive
so I would (in your case) set the crank to 102 and
have the #1 intake at the top with my indicator on
it and slide the idler gear on... then make the before
and after(.050) checks to see if its correct and
adjust if needed
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob

This is how I do mine also.




Make that three
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:16 AM

I do it at .200 before max lift, .100 and .050 BML and then .050, .100 and .200 after max lift, add the two numbers up and divide by two. I do this at the retainer with the lash set, not on the lifter. Most motors(all of mine ) know what the valves are doing, they don't know or care what the lifters are doing If it is hydraulic cam and lifters I use a solid lifter and set the lash at zero
Posted By: Ari440

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:19 AM

can anyone post how to do it please
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:28 AM

Now I do it at the lifter..right or wrong/..I might recheck after I get the head on. now checking it at .050 before max and after. I got 60 deg and 35 deg. 60+35+180=275 div/2 = 137.5 - 35 =102.5 so very close. I will try tonys way tomorow. Only thing I do like about how I do it. is you only got to read .050. and 0 on the dail. where the max deal you reading odd number and adding .050 to odd numbers to read on the dail..
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob

This is how I do mine also.




Make that three



One thing comes in to play here is how your degree wheel reads ..my is broke in to 90 deg segments...not all degree wheels are this way.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:48 AM

Your doing it the way the cam companys want you to I don't like doing the lobe centers that way so I do it at the valve retainers, I also always check the exhaust after getting the intake lobe center where I want it. This makes sure the cam lobe centers are ground correctly on both lobes, the exhaust lobe center should be retarded the exact same amount the intake lobe is advanced. IE Lobe seperation angles are 108, you install the cam with four degrees advance on the intake lobe, which means the intake lobe is installed at 104 max lift after top dead center, the exahust lobe max lift should be exactly at 112 BTDC
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:50 AM

Ari440

First you need to find true TDC. Use a stop and bring the piston up to it and record the reading (i.e. 10* to the right of 0). Now go backwards till the piston hits the stop. If the reading is the same (10* to the left of 0) you have TDC. If not adjust the pointer (or move the wheel) till the #'s are the same on either side of 0 TDC.

Now place your dial indicator on the intake liffter. Bring the lifter to max lift and zero the indicator. Now rotate untill you read .050 and record the #. Rotate back to 0 (max lift) and continue till you read .050 the other way. Record this #.

Add the 2 #'s togheter and divide by 2 and that is your intake CL.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 03:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob

This is how I do mine also.




Make that three



I do the install like you guys are saying with the
.050 before and after, add then /2
For what Cab is saying about checking at the valve,
I dont usually check it there.... I just advance the
cam basically to give more torque and compensate
for the valve train loss
Posted By: Ari440

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 04:12 AM

Quote:

Ari440

First you need to find true TDC. Use a stop and bring the piston up to it and record the reading (i.e. 10* to the right of 0). Now go backwards till the piston hits the stop. If the reading is the same (10* to the left of 0) you have TDC. If not adjust the pointer (or move the wheel) till the #'s are the same on either side of 0 TDC.

Now place your dial indicator on the intake liffter. Bring the lifter to max lift and zero the indicator. Now rotate untill you read .050 and record the #. Rotate back to 0 (max lift) and continue till you read .050 the other way. Record this #.

Add the 2 #'s togheter and divide by 2 and that is your intake CL.





THANK YOU VERY MUCH BILL
Posted By: ksj

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 04:25 AM

Kato Engineering has your answer Jamie
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 09:57 AM

Same way Vern, after checking top dead center. I check off the lobe, with a large Jomar wheel on a crank socket with a separate attachment. That way, I can turn the crank without disturbing the wheel.
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 11:16 AM

Quote:



THANK YOU VERY MUCH BILL






Posted By: patrick

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 12:07 PM

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob



that's how I did mine. find max lift w/ the dial indicator, 0 it out, then go .050 on either side, taking degree measurements. add them up and divide by 2....I was checking at the lifter, heads weren't on the motor yet.
Posted By: nosboy

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:21 PM

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT BILL!!! You HAVE to find the TDC of the PISTON and NOT the mark on the balancer.. I've seen balancers OFF BIGTIME!!!. Also, use the LIFTER and NOT the pushrod or rocker or valve.. There is angles involved in the relative positions of pushrods,rockers,,etc,etc,etc, that WILL throw off your readings... the LIFTER ITSELF,,,, not the piston inside the lifter,, the OUTSIDE WALL of the lifter... I put my cam at 102 and I am really impressed with the performance!!!! I have a 5000 stall convertor and the cam wakes up WAY BEFORE 5000 and I waste some power,,,but,, my challenger still runs 10:40's CONSISTENTLY and it idles pretty good sometimes.. The trick is to LEAVE the mechanical advance springs IN the distributor and NOT TO PIN the dist together,,, so it will start RIGHT AWAY all the time!!! the advance kicks in at around 1800 rpms and my car runs between 5000 and 7000 all the time
Posted By: ProSport

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 01:44 PM

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob



This is how I do it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 02:01 PM

The big thing to remember here is --degree the cam to know where its at SO you know which way to go - if need be - AFTER you run it some--The recommended spot is a good GUESS at where it should be to get the desired results BUT if you are say 1/8 miler vs. 1/4 etc you may need to advance or retard to get the exact performance out of it that you are looking for--I have seen BIG inch engines make 50 Ft lbs more on the dyno by retarding a little I have seen small block 1/8 milers tear the chrome off the rear bumper and pull like a rocket in the 1/8 but run out of steam in the 1/4 so---going crazy over a degree or two is USELESS--a good smart racer will move it around a little to FIND where it needs ( after RUNNING it )to be for his combo and desired results OR if it dynos great and you are winning races WHO cares what it is degreed at? - except to be able to put it back in the same place after teardown - Getting picky over HOW to get there is missing the point IMO --just do whatever you do the same way every time. One of the best ways - accurate every time - is with the tool in the lifter bore that holds the mic and measures straight off the lobe--- make it run good for real --not on paper
Posted By: B5 Bee

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 03:35 PM

When checking .050 before and after, turn it in it's normal direction, check .050 before, then .050 after, all in one direction. This will keep the chain tight and not add in the chain slop to your readings that will happen if you turn it back and forth.
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 03:39 PM

Quote:

When checking .050 before and after, turn it in it's normal direction, check .050 before, then .050 after, all in one direction. This will keep the chain tight and not add in the chain slop to your readings that will happen if you turn it back and forth.





Forgot about that

Last cam I degreed was in the Jr and it has no chain
Posted By: 9secondsatellite

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 05:27 PM

Quote:

The big thing to remember here is --degree the cam to know where its at SO you know which way to go - if need be - AFTER you run it some--The recommended spot is a good GUESS at where it should be to get the desired results BUT if you are say 1/8 miler vs. 1/4 etc you may need to advance or retard to get the exact performance out of it that you are looking for--I have seen BIG inch engines make 50 Ft lbs more on the dyno by retarding a little I have seen small block 1/8 milers tear the chrome off the rear bumper and pull like a rocket in the 1/8 but run out of steam in the 1/4 so---going crazy over a degree or two is USELESS--a good smart racer will move it around a little to FIND where it needs ( after RUNNING it )to be for his combo and desired results OR if it dynos great and you are winning races WHO cares what it is degreed at? - except to be able to put it back in the same place after teardown - Getting picky over HOW to get there is missing the point IMO --just do whatever you do the same way every time. One of the best ways - accurate every time - is with the tool in the lifter bore that holds the mic and measures straight off the lobe--- make it run good for real --not on paper

measure off the lobe, go right to the source. the right tool and procedure will make it accurate every time.
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 09:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i do it @ .050 before and after max lift
add then divid by 2

Bob

This is how I do mine also.



I would like to see picture of you guys degree wheels..something don't add up here. just to take the 2 numbers and add and then div. Like my numbers..60 and 35 deg add them =95 div them by 2 =47 ???



Posted By: B5 Bee

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 10:29 PM


I THINK this is what you have.

Your 60* looks good.
Look at your 35*, it is really 145*, once the pointer gets to 90*, it counts backwards, you have to ignore the printed numbers and continue counting the marks upwards from 90 to the mark that you see as 35*, it will be 145*.

60+145=205

205/2=102.5


A wheel that is marked a full 360 makes it easier to figure.
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/14/09 10:41 PM

I think Cab is right, the motor does not care what the lifter is doing , its the valve opening that counts, never looked at it that way, I always measure @ the lifter , I wonder now how much difference the is between the 2 points in degrees?
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 02:03 AM

B5 bee thanks for looking at that..your math looks good. and you came up with something better than I did. thats why I want to see other degree wheel
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 02:04 AM

emarine01 I going to find out..will check it out before the weekend is out..
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 02:46 AM

Jamie I believe this is the one I have... if you
look at the image you will see its a 180 degree and it
shows area's that the valve event should be happening
your issue is every 90* it starts again
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1057/?image=large
Posted By: bonefish

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 02:48 AM

a
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 02:51 AM

I check the ICL first then check the numbers at .050,then check the exhaust lobe using the same method to confirm the LSA.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:27 AM

This is my small 11" wheel only one that will fit in the car. Have a bigger 14 or 16" real cool!

Attached picture 5418426-Cranksproket1.JPG
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:31 AM

crank sprocket from Mancini's is cats butt!

Attached picture 5418437-Cranksproket2.JPG
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:31 AM

3

Attached picture 5418438-Cranksproket3.JPG
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:32 AM

4

Attached picture 5418442-Cranksproket4.JPG
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:33 AM

5

Attached picture 5418443-Cranksproket5.JPG
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:35 AM

Quote:

This is my small 11" wheel only one that will fit in the car. Have a bigger 14 or 16" real cool!

I don't own the smaller degree wheels,can you tell us the difference between them?
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:37 AM

Last

Attached picture 5418446-new2.JPG
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:41 AM

Yeah I got that same crank adapter... works great
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This is my small 11" wheel only one that will fit in the car. Have a bigger 14 or 16" real cool!

I don't own the smaller degree wheels,can you tell us the difference between them?



I originally in the days before time had a direct connection 7"
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopdegwheel2.html
then later as the earth began to cool I got the 11 " fits just right down in the car
and now I have an 18"
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mor18degprow.html
The bigger they are the larger the numbers this does two things makes it easier to read and more accurate. I assume that's what your asking!!
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:54 AM

I was looking for accuracy and whether there was over 1 degree difference between them.I thought with all the pics,I might learn something important.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 03:58 AM

I had one Moroso degree wheel and one Mr Gasket, I gave one of them to 9secondPhil years ago, my point is that , as already pointed out, that some of the degree wheels will mislead you. I bought one form Comp Cams last year as the center of the old ones was getting worn and wouldn't always center good , The new one doesn't have a centering adapter so I have to hold it on center and tighten the bolt up and hope it stays in the center LOL The intake cylce begins with the intake valve opening before top dead center and ends up closing after bottom dead center with max lift somewhere bewteen 90 degrees after top dead center and 120 after top dead center, some people will call that 90 degrees before bottom dead center and 60 degrees BBDC The thing to remember on checking the cam timing on both lobes at .050 lifter rise is to add the 180 degrees between TDC and BDC that happens every time the valves open and close, if the intake valve opens at 35 .050 lifter rise before top dead center and closes at 56 degrees after bottom dead center you have 35+180+56 which equals 271 degrees intake valve duration at .050 Same thing on the other side but the exhaust valve timing starts before BBDC and closes ATDC, so its maximum valve opening is always going to occur before top dead center. On finding and checking lobe center you measure in relation to max lift .050 before and after, I measure in three places to make sure what the valve is seeing as it reaches maximum lift don't be suprised to occasionally see one degree variation on those three places My point on bringing this up is you can check it at .300 begore max lift or .050 BML, the lobe center will stay where the cam grinder made it As far as degree wheels, here is a picture of the two I have now, they are confusing if you don't use them as a way to measure cranksaft degrees only

Attached picture 5418496-MVC-043S.JPG
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 04:01 AM

Quote:

I was looking for accuracy and whether there was over 1 degree difference between them.I thought with all the pics,I might learn something important.



Well in a 11" wheel you have .095 per degree and in a
18" wheel you have .157 per degree... you can get much
closer with the big wheel
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 04:08 AM

Quote:

I was looking for accuracy and whether there was over 1 degree difference between them.I thought with all the pics,I might learn something important.



Well as someone who started small the bigger they are the easier it is to be real accurate as you see much better and it's easier to see 1/4 and 1/3 degree's!
on a seven inch wheel the numbers are .061 apart.
on a 11 inch .096 apart. on a 14" .122 apart and on a 18" .150 apart. think that's the math
seen some on Top Fuel must be six feet in diameter.

I would say with a 7" hard to be within a degree on the 11 inch 1/2 a degree and the 18 inch I'm sure I'm bang on!!!!
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 04:19 AM

It's obvious the larger wheel SHOULD be more accurate. I was looking for some testing to confirm enough to replace my old unit. Guess I'll keep it.
Posted By: patrick

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 11:48 AM

mine's marked 0-180, not 0-90-0....
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 12:03 PM

pro wheel

Attached picture 5418807-May14_01.JPG
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Degreeing a cam in.. - 08/15/09 12:51 PM

Quote:

It's obvious the larger wheel SHOULD be more accurate. I was looking for some testing to confirm enough to replace my old unit. Guess I'll keep it.

The larger wheel is easier to read, but even a 7" when used carefully and correctly will get the job done "accurately". If you can repeat the setup and ICL less than 1 degree, that is all you need. The operator is more important...But better tools make it easier. IMO, setting the wheel to TDC is the place to spend time getting it the best you can.

When I buy a cam, I map the duration from 0.020" to 0.350" lobe lift, that is close to 0.050" before max lift depending on cam. Once you get to 0.050", the ICL should be the same (less than 1 degree different measurement). If you do it at 0.006, 0.008, 0.020, 0.050" you will see the difference in the opening and closing ramps.
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