Flat tappet failure...what do you think?

Ever seen all 16 lobes and lifters eaten up?
I have an engine (mark IV 454 Chevy) a friend brought to me to fix. He rebuilt it and used an Elgin hyd. flat tappet cam kit. Real mild...230 @ .050". It lasted for 15 minutes of break-in time before the problems started.
All 16 lobes have started to wipe. Usually only see one or two.

Oil is full of glitter. It was real tight trying to turn it over. The crank will definitely need to be turned.

Even the piston pins are really tight. They're just cheap cast Sealed Power flattops w/ pressed pins, so he'll likely be buying pistons too. I'm thinking it has shrapnel in the pin bores causing them to tighten up. Junk or do you know of a way to cure this?

The timing set is suspect...there's visible galling b/t the block and the cam gear. I'm wondering if shrapnel from that caused the lifters to stop rotating and eat itself. The timing set is a cheap standard set w/ an aluminum cam gear.

FWIW...he did everything "right" for break in...zinc additive, fired up and ran at 2k rpm, etc.

I know this isn't a Mopar, but still a fairly common flat tappet failure issue. Trying to tap into some of the knowledge here for some insight.

Timing set

I just helped a friend put a small comp flat tappet hydraulic cam in a 318. Everything went together great, lifters moved nice and free, used the proper oil, etc. Break in went well, we even drove it about 20 miles that evening. The next day he drove it to his dads house and didn't even make it 20 miles before enough of the lobes were gone it would no longer go. He bought a magnum core engine to freshen up and throw in, no more lifters without wheels for him lol.

This guy is a believer now too, lol. I tried to talk him into a roller, but the price scared him off...now here we are. It will be getting a hyd. roller.
I've built a few flat tappet motors in the past few years and all have done fine, but I don't like to chance it. Every time I tell them...I'll do everything I can to make it live, but if it eats itself, it's yours.

absolutely right, I am scared to death to build any engine with a flat tappet camshaft, my personal experience and that of others in my area who build engines is the junk they are selling will not survive no matter how particular you are about break-in. I rented my dyno to a guy just to break-in his camshaft, he has a background as a machinist, so he is very particular, we did everything by the book, I helped him swap to stiff springs did a couple pulls and engine made decent HP, two weeks later it is flat. I build about 15 engines a year, every flat tappet engine that comes in has flat or very worn lobes, many are recent builds. Again I know a guy who has built engines all of his life did a mild 289 for a mustang restoration, cam did not survive 30 minute run time. And I could go on and on.

Why does it look like there is supposed to be something bolted on the end of the block at the cam hole ?? I know little about a Big Block Chevy

They're drilled for a retainer plate that's used in reverse rotation marine applications. Not used otherwise.

Thanks

Those lifters are fugly!!!

Whose are they, and how much run time?

Exactly what oil was used?

How were the springs set up?

It wasn’t a situation where the rockers were OE style, and the slot was contacting the stud?

I know you know how to break in a cam…….. just looking for a few more details.

It was an Elgin cam, lifter, spring kit. 15 minutes of run time.
I'm pretty sure he used Amsoil oil. His nephew is an Amsoil dealer so he gets it from him. Not sure what weight. He also added a bottle of zinc additive.
130 psi seat pressure at 1.88" installed height.
Crane Energizer roller rockers. The cheaper cast aluminum silver rockers.

ELGE929PM
Elgin, Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft & Lifter Set, Chevrolet Big Block, 231/231 @ .050, .544/.544, 109 LC
Adv. Duration: 292/292
Duration @ .050": 230/230
Lift: .544/.544
Lobe Separation: 109 LC
Includes Lifters: PVT652394 Hyd. Flat Tappet
2200-5400. Very strong mid-range, choppy idle.

It ran for about 15 minutes until it started getting hot. He shut it down and let it cool off, then it didn't want to turn over. Cranked real slow. He pulled the plugs out and it turned over better...next he pulled a valve cover and found some rockers turned sideways. Obviously saw the glitter in the oil at that point. Then he proceeded to get violently ill.

I just ran five years on a .650 lift solid lifter cam in my small block. And I even run alcohol. Brad Penn (Penn Grade) oil and EDM lifters. I would put it in another engine tomorrow.

I wonder where Elgin is sourcing the lifters.

With all that I’m seeing I’m leaning toward a very dirty engine, (oil passages not cleaned) to start with. Did he make sure the lifters turn easily in their bores first?

It is more expensive but cheaper than two flat tappet cams and a tear down lol.

I try and talk customers out of FT cams these days……… but those who haven’t had one fail during break in are often willing to still try a FT.

John, with all respect, in my opinion folks were not having these problems five years ago, at least folks who knew what they were doing.

Now you see folks that know what they are doing have problems all the time.

Until something changes I would never use a flat tappet cam again.

We heard this five years ago and five years before that. People use crap oil, won’t clean things right, and don’t pay attention to details.

Being all 16 are bad my guesses are:

Improper pre-lube of lifter/cam
Bad batch of lifters
Maybe double check the diameter of the lifters as my father in law had a set years ago where 1 was smaller diameter than the rest. Maybe these 16 are larger than spec and weren't turning.
Way too much valve spring pressure

This video is worth watching.
https://www.google.com/search?q=lif...DMgkIARBFGDsYwgMyCQgCEEUYOxjCAzIJCAMQRRg
Doug

My guess is this cam may have not received the parkerized or nitride heat trading process. We always pay extra for nitride on our hyd f.t. resto type engines.

I'm seeing a couple of red flags:
1) Elgin cam and lifters = CHEAP
2) Amsoil with a bottle of zinc additive - if he is using the Amsoil Break In oil, adding zinc additive is a NO. If using Amsoil regular oil, use the Break In oil.
3) Cheap rockers - possible valvetrain bind, was everything checked?
4) 130 psi seat pressure - with that seat pressure, I'm willing to bet open pressure was 330+, another NO.

And guys wonder why flat tappet cams fail...

I can’t ever remember using break in oil but I do throw in a zinc additive for break in. Inner springs are out and this isn’t the time to learn how to time an engine. Get the dog gone thing fired up immediately. Fresh gas, charged battery, lines tight, water topped off, primed engine, and a small cap of fuel down the carb.

I had my first cam break in failure last year. Forever I'd used Shell Rotella and an additive. This one was a Crower cam and Johnson lifters.

Got another identical cam and lifters then used Lucas break in oil

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUC-10636-1

No issues after that.

That looks like there was a bit of bind in the valvetrain - cam got pushed back because of the bind. I would be checking the rockers and geometry something is way off and from the looks of it the mains might be a little tight as evidenced by the copper already showing on the one bearing.

[url=https://youtu.be/k_ExoIuTpks?si=nFzK1ephbVDVV3Yt][/url]

I broke my last hyd f.t. cam engine in with only the outer valve springs. It's a 541/529 /292. After break in I added the inner damper springs. Knock on wood. Been going good and has over 55,000 miles on it so far with no issues ever.

All 16 look bad, engine is tight to turn over, lots of glitter in the oil, etc. all point to a general error, not a specific cam related problem. My guess is that the engine has a basic machine work error or an assembly error. Piston clearance too tight, bearings too tight, or something along that lines. Engine filled up with cast iron dust and everything went down hill fast. It is also possible that it was just a soft cam, but if it was me I'd double check all clearances in the rotating assembly to be sure.

I've never seen all 16 lifters fail on break in. It is usually only one lifter that fails although I have seen two a few times. But never 16. I doubt he had 16 defective lifters but it could have been a soft camshaft. I've never seen a whole cam that was soft but it could happen.

I did see an engine where the owner installed extended tip spark plugs that were so long the straps interfered with the valves. That engine turned into junk very quickly. Multiple bent valves, bent pushrods, lifters wiped out, cam lobes wiped out, etc. Just because the guy installed the wrong plugs!

Were the lifters checked for rotation prior to fireup? Agree that it's a systemic problem, like the cam was ground flat like a roller, not with the proper bevel on the lobes, or something. S/F....Ken M

I’m wondering if these cams are made correct to line up with lifter bores? going to look at my original 413 short block to see where that lobe sits in relation to centerline of lifter.

What springs?

About 35 years ago my brother had a 402 that did that after a hydraulic cam swap. Not sure what the duration was but lumpy for sure and somewhere about .600 for lift.

He was told the GM High Performance springs would work... It ran for about 20 minutes and it finally would not run any more. Those lifters look good compared to his. Springs were checked post mortem and the closed pressure was good but the open pressure was in solid roller territory.

Kevin

looks like the camshaft was walking (taking a very hard walk) in the block,...why? what was the end play in the crank? lifters were rotating, i can't see any lobes flat. foot of the tappets could have been damaged from all the metal debris. what caused the cam to thrust to the rear of the block? this needs a better postmodern than flat tappet syndrome. i messed with that lobe profile some years back and i came away thinking it was very gentle. what was the over the nose spring pressure?,....not that i think spring pressure did this but using a small tappet with a 1.72 rocker those numbers need to be checked. i think maybe there was a major engine assembly issue. not enough things checked or cleaned.

I have been a mechanic since 1976 when I went to work at a Chevy dealer after getting out of votech school. Was changing a lot of 307 chevy cams, most high mileage failures. Having been threw tech school I was taught the proper break-in procedures, the other flat rate techs laughed at me for wasting time. At that time techs just throwed the cams in and run them out the door, and you know what no major issues. They just changed the oil, no worries about metal still in the engines, no special break-in oils, just slam them together and go. Maybe a bunch of factors coming together, but I just believe flat tappet cams are such a small market today the quality is just not there no matter what oils or procedures you use. Times have just changed, if you want a vintage muscle engine, just upgrade to roller lifters, nobody can see you done it, no worry about always adding special oils, not really affected by sitting long periods, the extra money is well worth the peace of mind.

It kills me to spend more money and then get it in the butt. That exactly what happened to an engine I built for my son. Small .620 roller cam, set of 828 comp cams roller lifters with 50 runs out of my old 408 engine. Great running engine for half a season in my sons duster running 6.54 on four occasions (10.30’s). Then a tie bar broke letting the roller turn. Totally ate up The entire engine.

i don't think it makes any difference whether it's flat or roller. you don't do your homework on parts and cleanliness you're setting yourself up for a problem. from i can see the cam didn't go flat; the engine was probably dirty from machining and not cleaned and there weren't enough checks done. before i bought any parts for this thing i'd mock the crank and cam back up to make sure there running parallel. that leaf chains cam sprocket may not be correct and the timing chain/sprockets should be checked to make they're running perpendicular to the crank. take the oil pump apart. look at every nook and cranny in the engine.

I bought a 69 RR 383 in 74 engine had been built up but kicked out pushrods, bearing piggy backed. 79 new crank, adjustable rockers manly 509 cam (what had when bought) raced engine 4 years in Duster, fast forward to 92 used cam in 440 for my 64, raced that for 10 years (don’t think I got lifters back in same spot) still in engine today on engine stand ready for the 73 Cuda. Cam had 3 different type spring from single to triples. Still look new. Oh, I paid $250 for RR and still have the 383 short block. What I’m getting at is mainly incompetence in building an engine. IMO

He used regular Amsoil, not the break-in oil. Now he tells me he used 2 bottles of zinc additive...that may be an issue?
The oil pump was primed before firing it.

The cam is most definitely going flat. You might not be able to see it in the pics good, but it has lost a significant amount of material off several lobes.
Not sure exactly what valvesprings they are, but they're singles w/ a damper. I think they are Howards. Haven't checked the open pressures yet.
I didn't build this engine and it was partially disassembled when I got it after all the issues.

Old flat tappet cams seem to be fine for the most part. It's the newer ones that have issues from what I've seen. Even then it's hit and miss.
I have a 509 MP purpleshaft that's 30 years old and has been in two different blocks. Still runs great.
I have friends that absolutely know what they're doing (not getting into resume's) and have wiped flat tappets on really mild stuff doing everything correctly.

Powell Machine on Youtube has several videos showing the lifter faces are not being machined correctly. Hardness on parts appears to be fine on the ones he has checked. Cam manufactures like to blame the oil, but that simply does not explain all of it as even people with mild cams have had issues that used to not occur in the past like they do today. Metalmax Mopar on Youtube also goes over this topic as well. Have to measure the crown numbers with a dial indicator on all the parts to weed out the bad ones.

It looks like the lobe taper was not ground on those lobes properly to me
I had three different hydraulic lifter cams ground with no taper at all from Comp Years ago right after they bought and started using their all new 5 axis cam grinder machines years ago
Stupid programmers and engineers

" Old flat tappet cams seem to be fine for the most part. It's the newer ones that have issues from what I've seen. Even then it's hit and miss.
I have a 509 MP purpleshaft that's 30 years old and has been in two different blocks. Still runs great.
I have friends that absolutely know what they're doing (not getting into resume's) and have wiped flat tappets on really mild stuff doing everything correctly.

Chip sorry to hear that, what a real PITA !

I've never lost a FT cam before and was extremely anal about the one I just broke in, just rebuilt a mild street 283 for the hot rod.

I had a new (but bought it over 13 yo so older stock) Summit (Crane) generic cam (214/224 and .465" lift) so nothing rad. I used brand new hyd FT Johnson lifters, BUT, every single lifter got refaced to ensure proper radius as I don't trust the manufacturers to do it properly anymore. I also used a proper hi zinc break in oil, I don't play chemist with oil additives and they may not jive with the break in oil's formulation so a always just use a good break in oil with decent zinc and phos. I hope the Amsoil your guy used was their proper mineral break in oil and not the synthetic stuff, synth is a big no no for break in, that could have caused a problem as well. I used old, tired single springs and the same moly lube that I've always used on lifter bases for cam/lifter break in. I also lightly hone the lifter bores to ensure the lifter is free to spin nicely.

I mark every pushrod beneath the rocker to verify that they are spinning when running and use a set of junk VCs with cutouts so I can see if the pushrods are turning during break in. If the pushrod is spinning it means the lifter is turning properly on its lobe. Fired it off last week and all went well, pushrods all turning nicely and changed the oil after cam break in with fresh break in oil and a new filter. I did'nt see anything in the oil filter so hopefully it all went well, guess we'll find out in the next week or two after more driving. Wish me luck.

I won't use a Comp flat tappet cam anymore read way too many horror stories ......imo, if you can find old NOS lifters and older hyd FT cams that suit, snap em up.

Let me tell you about my experience with flat tappet camshafts. I do a lot (average 10 a year) of ISMA 2 barrel engines, by rule, they are flat tappet camshafts. For the 10 years prior to the china flu, I never had a cam go flat. Now, if you get a cam lifter package, I would say you have about a 40% chance of not having a failure.
Here’s a small list of some of the things the engine builders/ owners tried to avoid a flat camshaft.
80 lb springs = failure
1.2 rocker arms = failure
Manual rotating engine to make sure lifters are turning freely, then run starter while watching them = failure
Preheating the oil = failure
Yes, we run them up to 2000-3000 within 10-15 seconds after starting.
Now, I am sure some of the internet experts that have not broke in multiple flat tappet cams in the last few years will tell me “you don’t know what you are doing”. LOL
What has seemed to work, is having their used lifters “rebuilt”. There is a place in Minnesota, which rebuilds them for under $4 each. I have done 3 engines with “rebuilt” lifters and new cores and no failures so far.
This whole situation makes me sick.

Joe

That’s the bad link I posted. Watch it, it’s eye opening.

what is the consensus on lifters with an EDM'd hole in the lifter's face ?
should those lifters also be sent out to have the faces redone ?

The oil hole likely is a good idea for HD applications. The lifter face would still need to be cut correctly, or none of these other tricks are going to help. DLC coated lifters is the same thing. What does the crown face look like when measured?

Many of these parts companies have been bought and sold and the shop guys who used to do these parts the right way have likely retired, or have been forced out by these big business mergers. They could have new people not fully aware that their work is off the mark combined with tools that are worn out so the accuracy level has deteriorated etc. etc. The first company who fixes this problem with better made parts and high level of quality control that keeps junk from getting shipped out is going to make a lot of money. The other companies who pretend crummy parts are not their fault will die a slow death.

Agree 100%
My current solid has been in two motors now, street strip(10.40 ish) for 7 years. Howard’s solid with EDM lifters. Other guys have used the same and similar grinds in my circle over the last few years without issue.
If the lifters have zero issue rotating, good lube on startup and good oil, my experience over a very long time is that issues are very rare. Not unheard of, but rare.
Looking at the pictures Chip posted in the OP, my guess is that contamination elsewhere in the motor locked up/ hindered the lifters, right after startup. That is ugly.

I checked the springs this weekend. 130 psi seat pressure and right at 400 psi open. A lot more stout than I expected for open pressure.

I’d give that combo (130 seat/400 open, 1.7 RR) about a 2% chance of surviving break in these days.

In other words……no surprise it didn’t live.

At least the mystery has been solved.

On the plus side….sounds like the current springs would possibly work with a HR cam.

I had a lobe go flat on a good hydraulic flat tappet, when I switched to a set of cylinder heads with hydraulic roller springs after 7,000+ or so miles

Yeah open pressure way too high.

Something I have always done (that I learned from a guy who built 1950's champion NASCAR Hudson Hornet engines...believe it or not) was to take the lifter bottoms and lightly etch them in a figure 8 on a piece of glass using jewelers rouge as an abrasive....he said it micro etched the machined surface to help it retain oil on the mating surface....just wipe them clean with mineral spirits and use GM eos at break-in. He said they break in almost instantly.

Well I always did it on all my flat tappets over the years...and I never lost one even running fairly high spring pressures...not 400 but mid-ish 300's.

Sometimes the old ways are the best

That cam never had a chance. I wonder what else was wrong with that build?

Agree with the above posts - it seems the use of synthetic, non break in oil and excessive spring pressure did the cam in.

Beyond what's already been said, the specific type of damage seen on the lifters seems pretty consistent with what I was advised
might be an excessively high concentration of ZDDP.

According to the lubrication engineer I briefly emailed back and forth with alot of years ago, too much ZDDP can cause spalling and pitting.

Just repeating what I was told, have no idea what's really correct, but he described ZDDP additive use as an attempt to achieve the Goldilocks zone of just-right PPM,
and if you double the amount it usually has the opposite effect of what we want.

i read that some where in a magazine article way back when...........
i can't remember what magazine that was though.

if he used amsoil synthetic for break in that would be a issue

I see no need for more oiling on Mopar V8 blocks do to the excessive lifter to bore clearances, unlike Chevy and some Ford casting every Mopar V8 block I've primed with the lifter valley cover or intake manifold off leak oil like there is no tomorrow, a bunch of oil from the sides, tops and bottoms onto the cam lobes and into the lifter valley which drips down onto the cam also
EDM mods to non roller lifters was started originally for BB Chevy motors that starved those camshafts for oil

Again even the guys who buy and use the highest quality flat tappet cams are having trouble, look at this thread from class racer, these a stock eliminator guys using best parts available https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=85341 the flat tappet camshaft is not a reliable piece to put into an engine anymore. The people that knew how to make them are either retired or dead in my opinion, the knowledge is lost. You can jump all the hoops with oils and break-in, but it is a crap shoot. I was a mechanic at a Chevy dealer in the 1970's nobody got excited about break-in on stock engines and special oils they just throwed them together and they worked. The only guys who broke-in cams were performance cams, and most of my buddies who installed smaller performance cams were oblivious to what break-in was and they still worked just fine.

I'm betting a lot of the flat cam problems is that they weren't ground with a the 1 degree slant on the lobes that makes the lifters rotate. I'm willing to listen to other theories.

I used to buy bulk sets of solid lifter off of Jim Dowel at Racer Brown. I’m probably down to one set now. I should call him and have a short talk about this.

Internet seems to suggest that all lifters need to be measured and verified today. Cams also, but the cams appear to be less of a problem. The more I read and watch about cam and lifter failures the less I think the oils are the issue, especially if your cam is not crazy big.

The majority of the cam companies claiming to be selling USA made lifters appear to be selling Johnson brand lifters, and not the Hylift Johnson made ones. Doing some reading on a Pontiac site a few days ago about cam and lifter failures and the guy who owns Jones Racing Cams told everyone that the Hylift made ones are the preferred ones to get.