Single carb options for NSS class

Can you run a single Holley in NSS now? I have an Edelbrock Thunder series 800 that I can run but the car has a nicely tuned QF 1050 on it right now.

Thanks

Gus

Yes you can. Only restriction is 4150 based and throttle opening no bigger then 1.75 and no billet throttle body.

I will assume that you want to race NMCA NSS at Norwalk next month. NMCA allows maximum of 1.750 throttle blades. NMCA 2023 NSS rules

edit: treed by Max

Oh yes, no dreaded billet throttle body. According to NMCA's tech director it has a "distinct advantage". Now what that is no one's quite sure.
Doug

Thanks guys See you at 42, I'm racing my Savoy for the first time in 3 years.

Gus

I sat at the table when the NSS class was formed. The whole idea at that time was full bodied 1962 to 1965 big blocks with two four barrels. Big three GM, Ford Mopar. Group started doing match races, index racing came later. I am really surprised how long the class has lasted and how it has grown. I guess for the fans they don't care if it has one or two four barrels. But as a former racer in the class, as far as consistency goes, give me a single four barrel any day. One of the reasons we started the class we were just turned off by the way bracket racing changed racing. Delay boxes, trans brakes, etc. So we wanted to do it the old way with no electronics and pay homage to the cars that started super stock racing. So it is still NSS racing, lot of different year cars have been added, lot of different combos been accepted. But you need to keep the cars unique as possible, otherwise you are just bracket racing old cars.

Mine is just an old stick shift barn find that I street drive and like to make a few passes once in a while.


Gus

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NSS racing is really a great class and we appreciate you guys setting the foundation for us that are racing it today. No nitrous. No delay boxes. Just car and driver and gas pedal. Real drag racing.

I also ran N/SS in it's infancy. Great class. We have no problem dialing index with 2 4 barrels..
Doug

They gave you the correct answers.
I am one of the three members of the NMCA NSS rules committee.
If I can help you with any questions just let me know.
I am not on Moparts a whole lot. You can shoot me an email if you have questions.
bwheeler051@gmail.com

We run NSS down in Texas.
I have never understood the carb rules for any nss group. We can stroke engines, use the best heads, valves, valvetrains , transmissions superstock in the day would have lost their minds over, converters that would have shocked their bones , clutch set up they could not have dreamed of . Cams- well, they had nothing approaching cam design of today , machining just wasn't there as it is today. Fiberglass and carbon fibre everywhere .
Yet carbs are required to be stuck in the 60's - makes no sense to me.
With todays carb technology we can get more power with less fuel and, more consistent af across cylinders than ever before- seems we would WANT top do this and point the government to our efforts to participate in helping with carbon emissions while still putting on good racing with nostalgia cars.
Intake manifolds are far better , ignitions are better and, we use all the best equipment there.

I ,,, just,,, dont,,, get ,,, it.
How on Gods little green earth does good carbs ruin nss when nothing else on our cars , performance wise , safety wise , is true to the Super stock era of yesteryear ?
Just blows my mind.

But, to each their own , we follow the rules and have more money tied up in modding old carbs than new all billet custom carbs cost and, at 3 times the weight.
Its hard running 5.90's in the heat with old , reworked stuff thats metal fatigued etc.
This is the One area i feel all NSS groups make a mistake in.
And, that opinion is worth exactly what it cost to read it !! hahahaha

I agree with Rusty M's take 100%...It is a stupid rule IMO, given what they DO allow to run in the class. Can build a 706" BB if one wanted hang carbon fiber body parts all over, run a modern wheel and tire combo run a large hoodscoop, a sheet metal intake with billet runners but you better not run a carb bigger than a 1.75 throttle blade and it better not be billet

Yep Al, makes no sense and, with the government breathing down our necks about carbon emissions, one would think we would use the best tools we have to show , as racers, we are putting forth efficient running race cars. Efficiency is power.

For what it is worth the carb rule is still in effect for all NHRA Stock and Super Stock cars. They must run the OEM carb, and they are much more of a stickler than NSS on the carb even having the right list numbers. And it is nostalgia super stock, that means the way they done it back then. And I agree some of the stuff that has creeped into the class I did not go along with, but it was still fun for all those years.

I get that, and the rest of the rules match as well don't they?

This is NOT class racing. Its a flipping bracket/index race. With basically no rules for the engine other than the stupid carb rule....So back in the day you could run a 600" bog block with an aftermarket block in your 65 Plymouth This comparison is like apples to brocollil. You wanna class race put your big boy pants on and class race. Quit pretending that NSS is ANYTHING like NHRA class racing .

I hate the look of the stupid HUGE scoops that look like they were made on a sheetmetal brake. And the modern wheels take away from the original look of the cars in the 1960s. I would like to see them keep the looks of the cars on the track look like what we saw in the magazines (not the AFX or AWB cars). I could go for the AFX Hemi scoop that was taller at the front on the 64/65 B-body cars. How many spectators look under the hood and say, "That's not an original 3116 Holley on that Hemi crossram!"

I wish they allowed the late 60’s 340 cars in NSS
They allow the 383 Darts and Barracuda’s, why not the 340’s?
Just as legendary if not more so. In fact, definitely more so.

I believe “most” NSS racing organizations specify big blocks only.

I totally agree on these ( so called ) rules , they are just frustrating . 98 % of the people in the stands watching will not know the difference . The issues listed so far are just a few that do not make since , there are many more that keep a lot of racers out of this class . Would love to join in the fun , but my car just does not fit in with these rules . Gary

There are several NSS Racing series, some follow the NMCA rules, True NSS series allow small blocks, Keystone Raceway has a NSS class that allows transbrakes, and another on the east coast, new york etc that have a little different rules also. Pick a series that your car fits or you like and support it. Don't try and change a series to fit "your car".

I agree most don't know what's under the hood. But though it isn't "class" racing. But there are rules. And like any other class if you want to race in it you follow the rules. Most of the rules have been there from the begining: big block engine, full interior except back seat, 10.5 tires, no trans brake, air shift, starting line chip (except stick shift), 5" period style scoop. The old wheels look great. The trouble is, not all are up to the task. Trust me I tried them. 2 4150 carbs should be more than enough for any index we run (8.50 min). To be honest my highest mph was with eddy carbs. Do I agree with all the rules? No, but I abide by them. Personally I think they could've stayed the same as they were since day one. So if you want to run N/SS? Get an allowable body and a big block and do it. It has been opened up to 1971 full and midsize cars. Not one of those style cars has shown up since the rule change. Everyone of us that run the class has done exactly that. Great bunch of racers. It's a fun class. Index allows you to be competitive on a budget as well. The no electronics aspect is challenging. No way I could afford to run NHRA ckass stuff.
Doug

Never mind. I meant to start a new thread.

Over all I agree DVW, if your gonna run with a class then, the rules are the rules.
Down here, we simply aren't drawing spectators and, basically, we are just filler, the opening act bands for the main act at a concernt.
Why/
Well, its not how the cars look, its not what carbs or wheels we run, thats for sure and, no one in the stands knows a thing about our rules unless they are racers themselves , though i suppose there could be a few hard core super stock fans from back in the day.
One issue i see is that we have cars the Jr Dragsters can beat!
I fully realize that it wont be much longer and seeing NSS will resemble watching model A and T races - yep, we are running 50, 60 year old cars.
In talking to spectators at the races , its speed and driver ability/driver personalities they come to see/watch/listen too.
Nss ( down here) has just about zero social media , all but zero YouTube presence and thus, no personalities for people to follow/get to know/come see.
Purses are very small, car counts are small .
Our best race of the year would maybe, maybe cover fuel costs for going if one wins it.
So, with no purse to race for , very few if any staying to see who wins in NSS , i think its really hard to attract folks to build and race cars under the rule set .
Its funny while yet being kinda sad to watch a crowd of 20-40 spectators hanging around the pits drooling over a15-20k turbo beater while standing next to a 65k Nss jewel and folks seeing the Nss cars as a "car show" and those guys as racers .
The primary reason being "they do things to attack spectators, build fans" .

Agreed, 2 edelbrock's "can" bring enough cfm for a lot of engines but, again, we are intake limited to pretty rough technology flow wise and, i will never deliberately use one of the INDY mailbox intakes again .
I pulled one off, with custom build eddies , went to single 4-4150 and picked dropped a tad over a tenth and 2 mph. Watching two of those intakes explode was enough for me-uggh . ( yes, i know the tricks, the pop-off etc.
IMHO: Nss is stuck in 2 worlds, we use the latest and greatest everywhere we can, but are severely limited in other areas and generally don't do what every other racing org is doing to bring in spectators .
We RunNss and, love it, love everyone we race with and , generally have. great time but, but- twice this year we have been the "also ran" group, just filler and no regard at all given to our class needs/time etc.
Once last year, twice so far this year.
We need car count, fans, excitement around Nss as a sport. This only comes from having mass media followers and Purses that matter enough to deal with rules that often don't seem to make sense . I know quite a few folks whose cars would qualify but they are not willing to cut 40 hp off their rig by changing intakes and carbs, much less spend that kind of money to go slower.
I love NSS , just think it could be much better and, if we don't get better , i fear its going to die out sooner rather than later.
We obey the rules for what we run in, as DVW stated so well.
Blessings all.

Rusty you pretty much summed up the issues in the class. I have owned my Savoy for about 30 years and only race it when I have the spare time and money. I sat out side of the NSS class for years because I wouldn't spend another $3000 on an induction that would slow my car down. I race with a stick shift group that have some rules that I don't 100% agree with but I follow them so I can still participate. I'm racing NSS this weekend with a single 4 barrel carb and I'm very happy they have changed the rules to allow me to race with them. I think there is maybe one or two other stick cars in the class. I know that I'm probably the first round duck because they won't let me run the race 5-speed I have so I need to leave the stock HEMI box in the car. But I will be there with a smile on my face hanging out with my friends.

Gus

I ran with Victory, NMCA, and NSS inc. Several times doing match races with NSS inc. we ran with some of the 405 street outlaws, and our NSS cars all pitted together drew about 30 or so olds guys talking about stuff they seen and did 40 years ago, and the street outlaw pits were mobbed with about a thousand people wanting autographs and t-shirts. Even my nephew that rode to the track with me went over an got a street outlaw T-shirt. My 64 Dodge was built with the help of Tech Students at the college I taught at. Built the car in 1994, kids all thought it was neat. I taught for 26 years; the new students did not even know what a super stock dodge was. All they were interested in was blowers, Turbos, and nitrous, and outlaw street racing. Times are just changing. I had one student win a car on Pinks.

As far as the carb rules go. Back in the day before my Dodge was changed over to NSS rules, it had one of the old Wieand cross rams with a single dominator. And it was an original NASCAR Dominator with a choke. That was not nostalgic enough, so I put on a 1964 Chrysler cross ram, car slowed down 4 tenths. First NSS race I drove my bosses 63 dodge with a cross ram I think it ran 11.50's and was in the middle of the pack. When I sold my NSS 64 Dodge is ran 9.60's still with AFB carbs. Originally, we had rules on how fast the cars could go. after all the 1965 national record for Super Stock was what? 10.90's The first match race was with a promoter in St. Louis at a race called muscle from the past, and he had the maxwedges, hemis, 409's etc,. paired with newer performance cars, think that was 1989 a 10.50 NSS car was super fast then.

I don't buy the double carbs with the Indy 440-25 are slower. There are more than a few cars running tunnel rams in NMCA. All but one that I know of are slower than mine. And all but one are lighter as well. Raced with a few guys that have gone to a sinngle Dominator as well. If they wereany quicker it wasn't much. Many weren't any quicker. The 440-25 on my car is unmodified. It will run 9.0x just in just about any weather at 3350lbs. More than a few cars running two Eddys and Mod-Man intakes running 9.50 and 9.75 index in NMCA. Two eddys and a Mod Man cost is within $200 of a 850 Holley and a Victor intake. I don't know where you get $3000 dollar cost from. Now granted two custom built 4150's and a brand new 440-25 are close to $3K purchased brand new. Either way, a 4150 single or a pair of Eddy's are capable of running in the 9 second zone. But the beauty of N/SS is you don't need a 9 second car. As for the 5 speed if you only used 4 gears no one would ever notice. Lots of excuses why guys can't or won't run N/SS. But in reality it's not that restrictive.
Doug

Excellent JWB.

DVW: I'm not complaining per say, i'm simply saying : We can change just dang near everything on a car but carbs and intakes . For instance: we CANNOT run a tunnel ram because Chrysler didn't make one.
Ok, i will buy that all day long,,, as long as we agree to get rid of every other intake Chrysler didn't make, the ignitions chrysler didn't make, the stroker combos they didn't make, the transmissions they didn't make,etc. etc, etc. Why is carb and intake the only things on our cars that cannot be changed>

Everything here is 1/8 mile, We are AFX at 5.92 spring and fall right now, BFX at 6.09 at 106 degree heat and 45% humidity. If I put a 4500 flange carb on it, we can run the 5.92 no matter the weather and not have to put the car on the razorblade for tuning. We "can" run the 5.92 now but, i have to put it on a razor blade and beat it like we are running for 50K, 3340lbs 65 satellite.
When we were on the dyno we are building vacuum with the 4150 flange carb and, pick up a LOT with the 4500 flange ( no, these are NOT out of the box intakes or carbs ) . That stated, we run in some of the most miserable racing weather in the country, two tracks we automatically lose 1 to 1.5 inches of barometric pressure and out better tracks that sit at 450 ft above sea level have a da this time of year, without this extreme heat of,,,m wait for it,, 4500 to 5200 ft with 125-140 grains of water.
Its "pendulum" racing- grin.
I love induction systems and tuning hot rods and, im pretty decent at it , at least down here and, more times than not down here, single carbs set up correctly win races. Thats coming from a guy that really loves being able to do cylinder tuning on a good dual setup.
Yes, absolutely you can get enough cfm from two eddies, yes, guys are running 1/4 mile in the 9,s, 8s, 7s with dual eddies, absolutely. Yes, some are doing so with the Indy Mailbox and Ive seen one modman in the 8's.
Let me put two handbuilt 4150's on those same intakes and i will make mph and cut et.
Let me put better or, modified intakes on those same rigs and they will indeed be faster/quicker.
We all know this and we don't have to sacrifice et/mph for trannys. cranks, cams, oiling systems/valvetrain/ignitions etc, etc.
Im not dissing Anyones induction systems at all, if i sounded as such, my deepest and most sincere of apologies as that was Not my intention. I just do not understand why it is we can buy anything we have the money to buy for these cars until it comes to carbs and intakes - nothing else is restricted, hell, we can run tubular front suspensions, carbon fibre shafts, bearlocks ( which i'm pro beadlocks for safety) , electric fans, dry sumps, vacuum pumps, pretty much any race fuel including oxygenated , shifters no one from 1965-75 could even have dreamed of- why the carb limitations?

I know this has been beat to death a million times and we wont solve it here. You have been great to me/us here and really helped us build this program so, im praying i have not offended you.
Its just a rule i do not understand and every explanation falls far short of making sense in light of all the other things allowed.

I would have zero issues if we were literally running 60, 70's, Superstock rules
as they were other than the safety rules- i'm Pro safety modern safety rules.

I just find it an odd rule that i "personally" can find no logical way to justify in light of the whole ruleset.

Dig this: We can run 02 sensors in the car, but, we cannot attach or download "that data" to look at because thy didnt have it back then. Ok, but, we can record the gauge with a iphone or Go Pro and just watch the gauge through the run. Again- makes no sense to me.
IF the point of the carb rules was to keep the cars from being too fast- man, i might be able to say: Ok, i get it.

Im Old DVW, I came up when racing was heads up, who crossed the stripe first wins is they didn't cross the line or jump.
I stopped when brackets took over everything but street racing down here, and it was everything outside nhraand, what i thought a fad, became permanent. Came back 35-40 years later to NSS race , my God had the world changed , racing changed . Had never indexed race a day in my life, now, it consumes most everything year round and, my wife and i have a blast- even in this horrible heat ( its come down to 104as i write, was 107 here at 3:30 today.
Cars in NSS-A Today are faster than regional ProStock when I sold all my stuff!!

Lastly: I have nothing against Eddies , love em, sell a ton of em on customer builds - good carbs . Can do quite a bit with them and know some good builders that mod them- but , have yet to see anyone that can do with them what we can do with 4150/4500 "style" custom built carbs and, i think thats primarily due to the fact that there was not as much aftermarket support in the 70's thru to now, as there was with Holleys .
so, please understand- i was not dissing your Hotrod buddy, not at all, nor anyone elses. You still beat the crap out of us on the 60' bud . Im still chasing you, thats factual .

Sweet Jesus, wrote a freaking book, sorry folks.
my intentions were honorable even if execution was faulty.

"Lots of excuses why guys can't or won't run N/SS. But in reality it's not that restrictive.
Doug

If someone has a workable answer to fix car count, we'd all benefit. But changing the rules has never worked. This is a great and fun class to run in. Showing up is part of the fix.

I agree with both of these!

Rules have been "relaxed", things allowed, things added and years added. The folks dont show up. I put my car back together after a not so pleasant divorce in 2011 and went NSS racing on the 10.50 index. The cost complaining simply is not anymore than other induction combos.

It is a fun class to run.Try it rather than trying to change it. You just might find that you enjoy it.

As far as the induction conversation goes, I dont think it is as restrictive as you think...

CARBURETOR
(NSS CLASSES): All entries in the eliminator must be carbureted as outlined below. Positioning of carburetors from factory mounting not a tech item (carburetors may be positioned facing forwards, backwards, or side mounted). Choke horn, choke plate, choke shaft, choke linkage, and choke mechanism may be removed. Carburetors are restricted to the following manufactures: Holley, Edelbrock, Carter, Rochester, Demon, Quick Fuel Technologies. Vehicles in this class permitted the use of carburetors listed for NSS, or Holley, Quick Fuel or Holley based carburetor 4150 style with a maximum 1.750 throttle blade. (NO Dominators). Carburetor must have commercially available cast main body. Billet Base Plate and metering blocks are permitted. All NSS combinations are permitted duel four carburetor setup.

FUEL INJECTION
Era-correct mechanical fuel injection permitted in FX classes only.

INTAKE MANIFOLD
Sheet metal intake prohibited. Manifolds restricted to commercially available cast units. Top of manifold lid may be modified and fabricated as necessary to accommodate carburetor placement.
Sheet metal or Billet Aluminum units permitted in AAAA/FX, AAA/FX, AA/FX, and A/FX ONLY.

No offence taken. I have the same issue. In the summer running 9.00 index is right on the edge for us. Though our weather isn't quite as bad as yours. I refuse to hop the motor up any more. It's to good where it is. So if I want to go that quick ther has to be a change. Aluminum blocks are too pricey. I love my chrome bumpers. So to lose 100lbs to get where it needs to be is either A; expensive B; sacrifice looks C: get very creative in 100 diffrent areas. For now in the summer we just back off and run 9.25.
Doug

NSS is a fun class and its also really up to the individual on what you want to run and how fast. I am with Doug - I don't sacrifice the look for ET - My car weighs 3800 at the line - it has a full interior including the back seat only because I like the look - I like the fact the cars have to fit the class and look nostalgic. I can run the 9.75 index but choose to dial up to the 10.0 index - that's my choice. I run two AVS II carbs - there is no advantage to them other than slowing the car with the adjustable secondary's - only reason I switched from AFB's is Edelbrock gave me a deal on the the carbs to try then out - I also run their heads. .

She's just down right beautiful!

DVW: Thanks buddy, was concerned i had hurt a fledgling relationship and, one that has been very helpful to me.
Now im working on "logging" as well as you do. My God man, you don't miss a thing and, looking at your screenshot of program and entered data, i can readily see where things we often dont think about logging can be very useful when needed.
Agreed on not beating the cars to death to stay on an index.
If we were racing for real money or, points that mean big money/sponsors etc, well, i would always be willing to risk breaking whatever to get the rounds/wins/points etc. But, that just doesn't make sense to me either at this level. Don't get me wrong ( grin) nothing sounds better to me than a rig tuned on the razor blade edge- all in. But, parts are so expensive and, even worse, so danged hard to get, its just not worth beating the parts up that hard imho.
Spring and fall we get to have that little extra excitement- grin.
Man do i love it when we get that fall cold spell where our Da's get well into minus numbers , year before last ( still on the cast iron block) , we had a weekend of all minus Da's and peaked at -460feet below sea level- man did i have a blast!!!!

Here's the group that runs out of Cecil County, MD, FWIW. Compared to some of the other NSS orgs, I think these guys are fairly open to what styles of cars are accepted. Even my "post-muscle car peak" 1973 Challenger is still 50 years old now, and they accept certain models up thru 1975. IIRC, they generally get 30+ cars at each event.

United Nostalgia Stock/Superstock Rules
Effective Jan. 1 2022

1. If time allows we will have a driver/crew meeting prior to first round of qualifying. Attendance is not mandatory. Listen for track announcements for when and where.

2. Cars that qualify torun this series must be American made production vehicles, between 1955 and 1975. Cars must use engines consistent t o manufacturer. (Ford/Mercury must h a v e Ford engines; Chevrolet - Chevy
engines; Plymouth and Dodge - Mopar engines; Pontiac- Pontiac engines etc. etc.). Both big and smal block engines allowed. Internal engine modifications allowed.

3. Cars must appear "PERIOD CORRECT"to the following classes: Stock, Super/Stock, Factory Experimental (F/X), Altered Wheel Base (AWB), and JuniorStock. Minor body modifications are allowed, such as "cowl" type hoods, period correct fiberglass body panels, and period correct hood scoops. Pro Stock, Snorkel or Tunnel Ram Hood Scoops are NOTACCEPTABLE. Al cars must retain factory correct appearance, including door handles, bumpers, grilles, head and taillights, etc. Said items can be of fiberglass/lightweight material (matching original pieces). Al cars must be naturally aspirated. (i.e. NO superchargers, turbochargers, nitrous oxide, or other power adders allowed.) Period correct appearing port-style fuel injection allowed on F/X and AWB cars only. Al forms of Starting Line Controllers including pneumatic and mechanical are prohibited. Full tube chassis cars are strictly prohibited.

4. All cars, drivers, and driver's safety equipment must meet N.H.R.A. rules, and pass technical inspection at the racetrack. Throttle stops, delay boxes, stutter boxes, cross overboxes are strictlyprohibited. fI these items are ni your car they cannot be used. Trans brakes and two steps allowed for stick and automatic cars.

5. All competitors must report to appropriate staging lanes when called in atimely manner. Al races will be run using a .500 sportsman full tree. Qualifying positions will be determined by driver's bestreaction time recorded duringqualifying and/or elimination rounds. "Deep staging" is NOT allowed. If yourcaris deep staged either during qualifying or eliminations, as thestarter activatesthe switch your sideof the tree wil go immediately red. No elapsed time wil be recorded. (This is known as the "Blue Light Setting")

6. Something new has been added recently tothe starting system. It is known as "Tru Start". Instead of the first to red-light being the loser, the system wil pick theworst red-light (if both cars go red) and the win light on the scoreboards wil show the winner of the run. The tree at the starting line wil show red in both lanes. Now fi only one car goes red it may get a little confusing. Please ask any track official to clarify it to you.

7. Drivers wil select their "dial-in" for eliminations (i.e. 10.26, 13.57, 8.96, etc.). "Dial-ins" can be changed between rounds. "Dial-ins" must be posted on the side window that faces the tower. "Dial-ins" must be clear and legible for tower and track personnel to enter yourcorrect "dial-in". "Dial-ins" cannot be changed once vehicle si past the "ready line" (prior to the water box) during eliminations. "Dial-in" limited to 14.00 and lower (faster). Al drivers MUST verify that "their" correct "dial-in" si on the score board or the small indicators behind the starter before pre-staging. Once you stage your car the "dial-in" on the score board si yours whetherit's the correct one or not. There will be NO reruns because an incorrect"dial-in" wasentered.

8. Eliminations will begin with random pairings. The #1 qualifier receiving a "bye" run if there are an odd number of competitors in the first round. In subsequent rounds fi odd number of cars are scheduled, the car with the best winning reaction time will be pulled aside. If odd number of cars do showt h e car wil get the bye, if even number of cars show, the bye car wil run the last car in the lanes and have lane choice. You wil only get one bye run per race. Random pairings wil continue each round, until the field si reduced to sixteen (16) or less cars. At sixteen (16) or less cars, the pairings will be run on a sportsman ladder. The ladder is generated by the computer in the tower.

9. Acceptance for participation and competition is based solely on the Event Director's discretion. Inappropriate or indecent conduct will not be tolerated. This series was created basedsolely on the idea of having fun, "Run By Racers For Racers." so let's al have fun and be safe, out there.