My John Cope CRT racing transmission problems

'll give this one a bit of a long post but , try to not go overboard

I was talked into using a 904 with my Valiant build , I spoke to a couple people , couple never called back , this was covid time so, caused some issues for sure finding people and parts .. Well, I picked the wrong guy

It took forever, no problem, not in big rush, still have many parts to buy .. then took another forever .. well, now I'm getting just a little upset cause, well ,, he surely won't let me owe him several thousand dollars interest free I bet , i could look back but, it was easily 6 months

I bought convertor from him too . finally got the box , dig thru the packing peanuts and no convertor?

Call him , yeah , they are behind, and we are waiting for it .. ( now, why didn't you order that in the previous 6 plus months I have been waiting ? ) oh well, again, not the worlds biggest problem but annoying and no bother to even call just lets me find out and call him .

took another couple months to get that ( convertor)

so, get it home and unbox it .. nothing in Speedo hole , call him say .. [censored] ? oh , I'll send you plug .. yep, did and charged me for too , shipping too .. I still just shake my head and move on ..

well, finally we get enough parts and we put car together and try to make wheel go around, they go in reverse for a moment, then nothing and it starts dripping fluids out like soaker hose

We fiddle with it a bit trying to figure what went wrong , called him ( builder ) and as expected the conversation went poorly , he said send it back .. well, I guess I'm pretty leery at this point and tried to ask a couple other questions and he hung up on me

Well , that's just not the way to treat customers I say , maybe I'm wrong --guess anyone can make a mistake

anyway , I took it to local well respected. transmission shop , I felt that even if I had to pay another person to do it right , at least I would be able to speak in person the builder and be treated decent

The sprag was installed backwards , which caused the snap ring on the clutch back to fail, broke the pivot arm on the servo and seized the pump bushing to convertor hub ..

Should of listened to my little voice before I bought from this guy ( bought other transmissions from him , and the dealings were never great but, at least the parts then did work .. well, expect the last 727 , it needed to have leaks corrected at home )


My stuff will be fixed but, sure takes the happiness of hearing it run away

I had a bad experience buying a used trans on here....Guys wife shipped it with no insurance for some reason. Showed up in pieces. I was out $2300...

Those are expensive, and I will only do those thru local places now. PS....

Why a 904? 727 with a JW bell works on both small blocks and Big blocks....Makes them far more versatile.

oh this one wasn't used .. if it was I'd understand .. this is a well known builder / parts seller

Did you pay for shipping? Did you specify how much insurance you wanted on it? Is or was anything in writing. I do a lot of shipping and some customers like to roll the dice and save a few bucks.

Dang, Big, that's the trifecta of crappy customer service - maybe the quadfecta.
Curious who the guy was, but that could get problematic to post...

If I were to guess, this is one of the builders people heap praise on and highly recommend despite having no actual business dealings with!

One even has his own You-tube channel that is an absolute beating to watch.

John Cope

Nail head smashed.

"Why a 904? 727 with a JW bell works on both small blocks and Big blocks....Makes them far more versatile."


glutton for punishment

I had a feeling it was going there but my experience was different , though it was a decade ago .

W/r/t "could get problematic to post"
In America we enjoy something that does not exist in many countries: the truth is an absolute defense.
Reciting your own experience is not libel unless you knew it was false.
How would he prove damage to his business?

I bought couple others from him ,1st one in 2008 went fine, no problems , 2nd one I had to wait a awhile to get , told him that was ok, think it was around 2-3 months , 3rd one was a bit of a problem , we had to take a bunch of bolts out and seal them but, it works good ..

then this cluster ..

He recently said he doesn't build complete transmissions anymore. Parts only.

Aha. I suspect some of these guys don't actually build the assemblies themselves, and/or don't do sufficient QC, and the product suffers as a result.
Cope did a 904 for my drag car a dozen or so years back. Received it with a park rod that was the wrong one.
After I got the correct one & swapped it in, the trans worked great and still does.
I chalked it up to parts-mixing and forgave it, but it mystified me nonetheless.

EVERYONE HAS A "BAD DAY"

I had a bad one from B&M, but this was back about 1970. Through that experience, I was forced to learn to build my own. While I felt their build wasn't bad, I sure felt their 'warranty' in my wallet! Nonetheless, I learned that building T-flites was actually pretty easy and it gave me a few extra duckets now and then when I would run across somebody that needed one freshened or built for their race car. Making the tools took a bit of time but the actual building is a piece of cake! When I quit racing stock, I quit using 727s. Now it's Jerico DR4 and nothing else. If it ain't got the thiird pedal, I don't even look at it!

knew it immediately when you said "hung up on me".

A few years ago I bought all the parts to put together a 904.
First couple times I called he was nice and helpful.Didn't try to over sell me just what I needed.
He seem like the type who was patient answering a bunch of questions all day.
TF have got to be one of the easier trannys to build. You really don't need any special tools.

Simple mopar math 904>727 now go sit in the corner!

Knew who you were talking about before you named him. Been that way for years now.

From personal experience too, not heresay.

When you say “they’re all the same”, to a parts guy, the phone disconnects.

He put wrong parts in a member's 904 fairly recently. He had to pay a local guy to fix it.

and he should do that with me but, hasn't even responded to me via email since he won't talk to me on phone

My buddy paid not John.

I talked to John about building a trans for my Duster but he didn't seem too interested in the work so I passed on him and had a local guy help me with the build. Guess I dodged a bullet. I know he had done nice work in the past for guys, maybe Covid busted his business. I know it ruined a lot of small businesses.

got it, mis read ..

I recently got a 727 built by CRT. I stopped by the shop and paid and picked it up in person - this was part of the deal.He told me that he wasnt doing builds where he had to ship them- and also people could drop off their cores.
Anyway, he had 1 very young employee working in the shop - not sure if the young guy is doing the full builds or not. I hope my new trans works good - it looks like it was done right. I should be testing it here in the next week or two. My previous 727 build from CRT is still going strong in my 340 dart 20 years later.

I recommend talking to this gentlemen. Honest. Builds a great product.

https://www.andrewsracingtrans.com/

I hope yours works correctly also , expensive timely mistake to correct.

727specialists FTW!

I have dealt with Cope many times. All i can say is, I understand. I would give 727Specialist a call. That guy knows a few things about a 727 and i believe he is now producing the old Griner Valvebodys.

It is at a local shop I trust. parts are ordered, convertor is sent in for repair.. 7-10 days it will be fixed

Got some 904 stuff brewing there right now….

I chose Pro Trans to build my 904 in my 1965 Valeant with a mild (600+ HP) turbocharged under 10 lbs. boost 360 stroker pump gas build, not sure yet on who to use for the converter
This is not intended to be a "race car", I need to learn about EFI and turbo charger so here I go

For those up in Canada, Steve at Commercial Powertrain builds a decent transmission, knows his way around the torqueflights and diesel stuff.

It's not rocket science. A reliable Torque Flite can be built with off the shelf parts. If you're not worried about every .10x in ET it's pretty cheap. I've done a bunch of them. It's not a $2K trans.
Doug

I am in Northwest PA, and need to buy a big block 727. Currently all I have is a shifter. Any recommendations on someone close by? Thanks

Exactly! I've done quite a few. Simple and stout.

if its so easy, then why did a pro builder fail to put it together correctly ?

Why did a pro builder fail to put a TF together correctly? Who turns out the light when the refrigerator door closes? Where does the fire go when it goes out? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Answer to all of the above, who knows.

I saw your post on forabodiesonly last week about this same issue. John replied to that post telling his side of the story, I will cut and paste that below. Sounds like John tried to make it right, but you refused to give him the chance. Also, how is it possible to put the sprag in "backwards"? The outer cam is riveted to the case, and the inner race can go either way. The springs and rollers really can only go in one way. Something sounds fishy about that.

John's reply on forabodiesonly......

When Darrel notified me that there was a problem with his 904 transmission I immediately got in touch with the technician that was working on the car for him to help troubleshoot it. The transmission had no forward gears and after some over the phone diagnosis it was apparent that the transmission would need to be removed from the car to be looked at. Understandably, Darrel wasn’t happy with that news. I apologized and assured him that I would make it right. I told him that I would pay for the shipping to have the transmission sent back to my shop, make whatever repairs were necessary, and then ship the transmission back to him within a couple days of when it arrived, all at absolutely no cost to him. During our phone conversation I made that offer to him at least 4 times, all while he was yelling at me, interrupting me every few words, and being totally unreasonable. I finally told him to cool off for 24 hours and call me back the next day so we could discuss it and I hung up the phone. I never heard back from him until he emailed me a link to this post. I totally understand that he is upset that his transmission has problems, I would be upset too if the situation was reversed. I tried to do what I could to resolve the situation, but he refused to even have a rational conversation with me about it.

The answer why I wouldn;t send it back is simple


Its been a problem since day 1 and he would of made it my fault .. no way I was going to let him touch it again

I have had two converters spec’ed and a 727 built by John. Last year I bought the DIY 904 kit. Both converters were spot on and the 727 lasted 50,000+ street miles and 1000+ passes. I had a question about the 904 band adjustment which he answered when I called him. I have heard that in the recent past he has had difficulty with staff. I know one 727 that was screwed from the beginning. I believe as we all get older it becomes difficult to keep up with the volume. Which is his stated reason for not building transmission’s and focusing on parts development. I personally have only had positive results with him. Sorry you had issues.

here is a picture of the caller info on my phone, just how much yelling do you think I got in in maybe 30-40 seconds ?

Call in entirety is 2.09 and it started timing as soon as I dial phone

I never yelled , I was asking simple questions .. he avoided my questions by hanging up, now who in their right mind would work with someone like that ?

Here is why I won't yell in the office , see how close one of my CSR people sit to me .. thats my office door and its always open

Speaking to the ORC issue - you can load the springs and rollers incorrectly - which negates the ORC function. But you have to be almost asleep to do it.

and, as far as my call timer ..forgot , I held for him for a large portion of that call

I had recently heard of him. When you posted this link I shot him an email early Sunday morning with a couple of questions. He responded to me on Sunday Morning and perfectly answered my question. He will be getting my business for trans parts in the future.

I can vouch for Andrews Transmissions. He rebuilt the pushbutton 727 for my 64. Nice guy and the trans
is still going strong after 15 years. No strip time but I beat the piss out of it on the street.

Britt

Some people bring in help when they get swamped and don't check the work of the helpers. I built my first 727 when I was 15 years old and close to 30 more since then and all you need to do is pay attention to details and you will have success. The only failures I had was when the owner installed the converter the wrong way, not being careful with the alignment and damaging the pump bushing or the drive lugs.

Gus

I got set up a few years back to build 727 transmissions. Bought a few tools, made a couple of fixtures and learned how to put them together. But then I got a little bit lost on some of the various permutations of seals and splines and decided that I wasn't quite ready to build parts for other guys since I didn't really know how to deal with a basket of random parts. I didn't have any problem taking a factory trans apart and putting it back together but if a guy brought me a box of parts pulled from different transmissions from different years then I was in over my head.

Sorry for your trouble BigDad.
This is a little off topic but, I’m a mechanic for 40 yrs, never rebuilt transmissions. I once broke pump gears in a 904 and swapped parts from a /6 904, worked great. In 2011 I bought my wife a new Mercedes, V6 AWD. Salesman asked if I wanted extended warranty, I said no I’m a mechanic.……. who needs a warranty. 2 years 2 months later it’s out of warranty. Trans starts going bad. Mercedes says $10k to replace. Can only put in a new trans, can’t repair it, or reprogram a used one, so can’t get one from a wreck. I was so pissed I let car sit 8 months. Borrowed a car from a family member for wife. One day I decided to tear it apart. Laid everything out nice on a tarp on garage floor. Found bad parts, but can’t buy the parts in US. Mercedes had lock on parts. I tracked parts down from a bearing number and was able to get everything i needed from a trans guy in France !!! I put it all back together and it was perfect. Kept it for years and eventually sold it to a friend of a friend. It’s still going strong today. I believe it was under $500 for parts imported from France and $250-300 for the Mercedes trans fluid they were nice enough to sell me where I bought the car.

I feel for ya. Back in June of 2019, I posted a thread about John's workmanship, with a picture or 2, on my 48RE tranny. He also replied to my post, eventually. Blamed his "employee" for the F##kup's, yes Plural, and then said he offered to make it right. He originally agreed to pay for the converter swap, because he sent incorrect one, twice. Then after I had bought the correct one myself and had it swapped, he offered to pay me a couple hundred bucks for the mess. Claimed I wasnt nice, so I wasnt nice after that. I try and call him every once in a while, just to see how he is doing, for old times sake. Jim.

I salute and envy your skill level. HOWEVER......Your experience is one of many for NOT purchasing a German automobile! (Unless one has the willingness and $$$$$$ to tend to all those luxury German designs.)

Thats his MO apparently found that is works and now uses the technique .. I never yelled cussed, did anything that should have offended him.

What payment method, seems like an easy dispute if credit card.
I had an experience with a vendor that repairs instrument clusters, he told me he didn't accept cards, too much hassle.
My spidey sense tingled, and I went against my gut, and I soon found out why he didn't take credit cards.
He totally screwed me over and I had to pay to get it fixed a 2nd time elsewhere.

And just like what you described, guy called me and totally went off unhinged. My buddies still rib me about that voicemail.

I did try the credit card dispute option. They had me send both of the incorrect converters back, (the only real leverage I would have had) and then the credit card company proceeded to tell me that the time limit had exceeded their 1 billing cycle limit, and there wasnt anything they could do. Needless to say, that CC went down the paper shredder. Good idea, tho. Make sure you check dates and policy of the CC that you are using. Jim

Man people used to say that guy walked in water. So glad a local guy worked at Chrysler for awhile. Even more glad I still have the last trans I took to him and didn’t end up using.

all the items that were incorrect from my trans builder

Yikes - that's about as bad as the SB that Bob Lambeck "built" for me some years back.
A laundry list so bad, it's like somebody had no idea what he was doing.
Or just didn't care.

that's some pro trans stuff there, I even questioned him after I got it and more or less was told shut up

I'd put a babbit bushing in that pump...aftermarket converter hubs are soft to absorb shock, not hardened like stock. That bronze WILL wear the converter hub prematurely

So after showing him the bill to fix an obvious installation error, Cope has agreed to reimburse you in full, right?

No sir, no response from him in anyway

Ooof, I'm sorry to hear this.

Funny, that is what he told me. And of course, I believed him. He mentioned something about the good Lord watching out for fools, not sure if he meant me, tho. LOL. Jim.

me

The headaches continue : (


Apparently the cope trans brake has some issue now , investigation is continuing.

Spoke to PTC , by luck .. Copes po# was on shipping label


convertor wanted / needed , was not what he ordered, they might provide the document but, he has to ask Kenny if its ok to send



So, another mistake that now has me awful sad about the whole thing

And the hits just keep coming...sheesh...

I am worried about valve body being a piece that is fixable now, can't find out until Monday ..

That would be expensive hit if it is no good , like everything else .. ( lol ) .. what a swell fella I bought from

I'm happy to report that the 727 I picked up from CRT in January is functioning and shifting good. (727 with billet front drum, reverse manual valve body and other "race" stuff)

I hope you get your 904 back together and rocking and rolling soon, BigDad

thats good, still nothing back from cope , CRT racing trans .. its back at local shop, trying to find out why reverse won't work now

What a cf

well, the beat goes on ...

They tore it apart ,and well .. its all messed up again, my guy called Cope , guess they have determined the pump pressure is incorrect and its need another re-build and more parts are ordered and maybe it will be working next week ..

Paint it black to match the cloud over it…….

Throw that valve body away and put a Griner in it.

clearly .. without a doubt , I bought from wrong person, shop , etc ..


Anyone that really cares about their product, name , reputation would of long ago, offered to help me anyway possible .. John Cope has not

well except when he said send it back and hung up on me

It's the fender exit headers of transmissions.

all of that and a slipping clutch

I would put the company name in the title of this thread if it were me.

Keep thinking possibly there is some good nature in his dna and he will offer to help fix the problem but, so far .. nuttin

John offered to have you send it back to him and he would fix it for free and pay for shipping both ways. You posted his original invoice to you for the transmission over on your similar rant at forabodiesonly. You bought that transmission from him almost 2 years ago! Most places would have told you the warranty is long past, but John offered to fix it for you at no cost. You decided not to send it back to him and bring it somewhere else, this is 100% on you now. There is no shop in the world that would pay someone else to fix something 2 years after it was purchased when they offered to fix it themselves for you at no charge.

Seriously?????

Considering the timeline from payment to accepting goods you are waaaayyy out of line.

I kept hoping Mr Cope would make this right. Very disappointed

I've never dealt with CRT but you sure seem to cuck for him. Did you even read OP's posts?

I bought parts from CRT many years ago, I had mixed experience with him. He was helpful in some regards, but not so much in others.

He initially sent me the wrong frictions and steels (he sent 727 parts, rather than the 904 stuff I ordered). I had to wear sending the clutch plates back to him, and pay for shipping on the replacements. I live in Australia by the way.

Hopefully you get it sorted out

Out of +30,000 genes in human DNA
is there at least one gene for dishonesty?

The scheme of
“Pump and Dump”
is really old
and goes back at least to
“The South Sea Stock bubble”
in England”
or
Tulip Bubble
in Holland.

Many auto websites and social media generally have active
Pump & Dump schemes
going constantly.
“Cold Air Intakes” are classic examples.

I continue to believe in
“The wisdom of moparts”

The quick lavish praise of John Cope in the past
then the slow trickle of actual experience
reveals the classic pattern.

moparts members have handled it better than average, if slower than a good ET

Figures never lie, but liars are alway Figuring

People are sending me PM's with their experiences... Not many want to step up and say, I got the pickle, fear of being drawn into a fight on the net, embarrassed they got taken .. etc i suppose but, I assure all.. I'm not the only one taken down a bad path


he sold me a transmission that was 100% built to fail within moments of putting it in gear. its hodge podge collection of mis matched junk

Mr Cope did offer to "make this right". He told the OP to send it back and he would fix it for free and pay shipping both ways. I think that if the same situation happened with any other transmission company, the offer would have been the same or less. Do you really think if Pro Trans, A&A, Transact, Turbo Action, or any of the other performance transmission companies had a similar issue and offered to have the transmission sent back to them to be fixed but the customer refused and brought it somewhere else to be repaired, that they would be sending the customer a check to cover the repairs? Of course not.

You would have to understand the complete situation , if he was a bit easier to speak to ( everyone can attest to that ) and would of spent a few minutes with me on the phone instead of just hanging up , I assure you I did not yell at him ..

Just some simple remorse on his end would of went a long way .

I just seen it as , send it back .. all your fault , send me xxxx numbers of dollars and I'll send it back .. I have ran out of trust with him .. Rightfully so too

Best choice then was to work with someone local that I can speak to in person and view the parts that are incorrect and resolve it but, he has so many things wrong inside of it and with the torque convertor. its taking extra time to fix everything.


I've talked to others that sent theirs back, he never did repair them , they did what I did ..sent it elsewhere

I have a hard time sending something back to someone who couldn't get it right in the first place.

Sadly this has been his MO for years. Any time someone would post a complaint his internet nutswingers would try to blame the victim.

wasn't like its just a seal or a spring ,, its more or less, everything was / is wrong on it .. complete mess

Well he woudl not be alone in that for sure especially here.

Sorry to hear of the issues for sure. I have never dealt with him. When I need TF stuff its been the guys at A&A or A1 and no complaints with either. hate to see this stuff happen but its an unfortunate part of this "hobby"

My rebuilt 727 from CRT works great. Just leaks from everywhere. Oh well, I guess I'll never have to change fluid. Just keep adding fresh.

John never asked me to send my 48RE back so he could fix it or make it right, just that he would take care of covering the converter swap. After finding the 2 obvious F##f-ups when i pulled pan off, I had my reservations about the quality of the rest of the build. I has a local shop swap out the wrong converter he had sent, and took my chances with the rest. It has worked fairly well, did have Issues at Spring Fling last year but was able to find a local shop that knew the tranny's, and got it repaired quickly. I, too have bought tranny's from him since he left the dealership, and been happy with him. Hell, I've hauled at least 40+ cores out to him, including some diesel stuff I sent out with the 48RE. I'm not worried about liable or repercussions from him, his track record speaks volumes. Jim

This thread and the one on FABO speak volumes. I'll bet the income he loses from these two threads alone will drastically eclipse what he'd of been out by making it right in the first place - regardless of who's fault it was. Poor business decision in my opinion.

That is the whole point.

He's since moved but when he was at his "old" location I'd stopped by a couple of times to ask about the possibility of him building me a trans. I didn't like his attitude.
My son took him a trans out of a 92 W250 diesel for a rebuild.
He claimed to have known who had been inside this trans before him, because of the color they'd painted it.... did nothing but [censored] about them(I forget who he had said it was) we had to pull it a 2nd time and swap converters since he'd gotten the wrong one from CRT. But the trans itself was alright. I just wish CRTs attitude was better....
I have another guy in mind to try the next time I need a trans built.
I too have since built a couple of my own since getting "the attitude" as described early in this post.

I'll just add a little from one of my experiences (the very LAST one) dealing with him. This was about 10 years ago, so he hasn't gotten any better since.


I was wanting to build a fairly expensive 727 (about $2500 to $3000) to put behind my new 499 stroker engine. Not a stock trans, not a true race trans, but something stout enough to handle 500+ hp and close to 600 torque without grenading. Well, we pretty well had it spec'ed out with what parts would be used and had the price figured pretty close. That's when it all went to hell in a handbasket. I made the mistake of asking him for a detailed written parts list with prices, PLUS I asked if he would give me a written warranty on the transmission. He EXPLODED on me on the phone calling me all kinds of things (not nice stuff). Then he followed up with the NASTIEST e-mail I've ever received calling me names that I won't repeat. (I still have that e-mail from him) All because I asked for documentation of the trans build and what my money was going to be spent on. Of course, after that e-mail I received from him, that was the end of it as far as I was concerned. I no longer had any kind of trust or respect for him.

The transmission I wanted for the stroker still got built, but it was done by A&A in Camby, Indiana. I've been very pleased with that transmission for 10 years now and its still going strong. So, in retrospect I guess I owe him a thank you (which will NOT happen after the way he treated me) for showing me his true self and diverting me to A&A instead.

I have a car in the shop with a pos Cope BB transmission. Bangs 3d so hard it will knock you silly. According to the car owner - John was happy to take the money but when the transmission gave trouble after installation he lived up to his abrasive-dishonest reputation. I plan on bringing it to him and leaving it at the front door the next time i pass thru that part of the country.
Should make a good youtube video

All of you keyboard commandos on here defending his shoddy work [as usual] need to eat some crow for speaking out of turn like a dummy, learn to be quiet when you have nothing positive to contribute and come over to help swap the transmission - as it is a pita to swap due to the configuration of the car.

Sounds like some YouTube videos are certainly in order. Tear downs should be some good cautionary tales.

How does somebody send out so many wrong convertors?

From what I’ve seen of how a lot of less than stellar people operate, a lot of people will become submissive when somebody has these blow ups and that enables them to continue to perpetrate their less than stellar business practices.

This has certainly been an eye opening thread. Thanks for it, as I need a transmission and it saved me a lot of hassle. Just wish you didn't have to go through it in the first place.

good deal , glad to save someone from making sa big mistake like i did ..

and, still lots of places in the WWW to make people aware of the problems and the lack of customer care

Kinda looks like as he finishes out his career it may be the place to buy parts but not get builds done.

my last order with him I did online a couple years ago. Some clutches and steels and a SOLID non grooved band for my 904. Clutches and steels were what I ordered but I received a welded/reinforced flex band. When I called him on it he stated “that’s what I ordered”…. well that’s not what my screen shots of the order said. He went on to say the flex band was what he used in his race transmissions and it would be good. I ate the core as I wasn’t going to send a solid band back for a flex. At about 20 passes in checking things over I found the front band a little looser than I’d like. Adjusted it up thinking maybe it was something I did. At 82 passes I pulled the trans to take a peak (this is an incredibly stock component build… I know many in the 904 circles that wonder why it’s lasting). What I found was that the mounting point on the flex band had worn/bent some creating the gap. I’ve stayed on top of it and it hasn’t gone any further. Eclipsed 100 passes on it last weekend . A friend of mine in the W8/W9 circle had the same experience (with the band purchase).

I’ll also give Mr Cope credit that on another order (727 stuff way back) I ordered on like a Wednesday. He had trouble getting my card to go through, but shipped the stuff anyways. It was the following Monday I was able to call him and get the card ran. I appreciated his trust on that deal.

I have no doubt that John C has built some killer stuff…. but to be honest his “handling” of things has had me…., let’s just say leery.

PTC converters….. after watching my bud Billy run through like 6 of them, you can have them. That converter fiasco almost rivals this trans build.


I’ve had Pro Trans work on two of my 727s and consider Dave and Darren friends. Even had issues with front drum piston throwing springs which nobody was sure why, but it was corrected on my second visit with that trans. I was going to freshen my 904 when it was apart and upgrade the input and output shafts but when I text someone and have to send them two more messages with (???) and then a week and a half later get a reply stating ( I think I can round up those parts)…,, well I was already opening the boxes from Andrews Racing Transmissions. A friend of mine (W8/W9 guy of course) has Chris build his transmissions and highly recommended him. I bought an A&A shaft from a fellow racer (unobtanium) and ended up going “all in” and sent the parts I bought from ART back to them along with case and my output shaft and having them built a complete 904. Chris has called me and texted updates. Very easy person to talk to and I’m looking forward to having a more “robust” trans behind the worlds SLO-est n/a W8 small block

Why in the world are we discussing this here? If you have a problem with CRT take it up with them. Work it out. None of us caused it, and none of us know the complete story. I don't knpw John Cope, and I don't know you. If he has poor business practices it will show and his business will suffer. I've been racing over years, and have certainly had some bad experiences. But, I work it out with them. Frankly, airing a business dispute on a board like this is Bush League.

got news for yah, the entire internet is a place to give reviews of bad service , bad food , bad people , criminals, scam artists , bad roads , you name it


I did try to talk to him , he hung up on me ..

This says it all.

Why wouldn’t you discuss topics on subjects such as this??? What I do know is the OP paid for up front in good faith for a transmission that took quite awhile to be shipped…. and then it showed up with NO torque converter (already paid for). He was in the middle of a build and time was not of the essence, but that’s not to say he wasn’t “concerned” about the situation. The OP is not a “trans guy”…. if I were to order a race trans (which I have recently) I’d know whether or not it was A500 pump geared and what the correct converter was. This situation OP ordered the trans (assembled incorrectly) AND the wrong converter was suppplied to him!! At this point I’d hope/wish John Cope would take the high road and build a COMPLETE trans with CONVERTER and simply accept the present one as core.

It's hard to believe there could be that many issues from anybody building a Torqueflite. It's not that complicated. Get the parts that will survive the intended power level. Assemble it. Compared to building and engine, it's cake. Most everything is a bolts in. Now modified stuff like the Pro Trans with 904 guts that are fitted to any number of other type of cases is a different story. They are a very nice piece. Obviously many modified parts. But not hard to assemble. I've purchased parts from John in the past. They worked fine. Purchased plenty of stuff from Rick at A&A. Rick ships fast. His stuff is good. He's a good guy to talk to. Just like my engines. If there's a problem with assembly it's on me.
Doug

well , it must not be easy since what I bought is a complete mess of wrong parts and poor assembly , and he is a professional ,

Dont remind me. The combination of TTI headers for a BB A body, and all those times I pulled that thing in and out of that car I still have nightmares. My old box was littered with those decals like kills on a war plane, lined up and x'ed out. EVERY time I have mentioned issues with PTC here I was roasted on here like I have never worked on a car before.

FWIW I have a Joels on Joy TF in my 64. He has been great when I have called with questions and to date its flawless.

I have had 3 PTCs they say, according to paperwork from JOHN COPE from CRT Racing transmissions in Lowell Indiana that he ordered it wrong , I asked them to send the copy to me

I contacted him about buying a 727core I wanted to get rid of. First he asked if I would take a check, I said no. He offers $125 cash. I bring it to his shop, and I must have interrupted him eating his Ruffles.Kind of a attitude. He did give me the $125 for the core though.

The biggest purpose of boards like these are to save people from being screwed over...

As for the PTC converter, after seeing the shop filmed on "Fastest Cars of the Dirty South", I wouldn't buy anything from them... What a mess.

Nothing "bush league" about this thread, just the reality of shoddy workmanship, more moparts cancel culture and how people got taken for a ride.

Can i put the car with the BB Cope Trans on the trailer and send it down to Johnstown PA and you will fix it for free? Figure a full day of labor
If it can be fixed that is....
I will send trans fluid/filter/gasket and valve body parts with the car

I appreciate it when someone isn't afraid to "out" someone as a hack and steer me from doing business w/ them. I had a similar situation here many years ago and caught a lot of crap for it, but it is what it is. I've only gotten parts from Cope, no issues, but his attitude sucks.
I have a friend that had issues w/ a complete CRT built trans.
I agree on PTC converters also. I had one years ago...no more.

Joel is one of the most knowledgeable trans guys I've ever met. When it comes to knowing custom built stuff and the ins and outs of valve body's he rates right at the top.
Doug

In case you weren't aware, nowadays people use the internet to research before making important purchases. A lack of negative feedback on a business might be interpreted as an OK business record.

Plus, I don't see why you would care that perhaps a future transmission buyer is able to read of past experiences with this particular company and have that information in order to make an informed choice that may potentially save them time, money, grief.

Are you saying you youself would rather be in the dark on a business before sending them lots of money for something? Hard to understand your perspective here.

I which there would of been a posting about a fab shop in north Dayton Ohio that did the updates on my car if so I would be racing this year instead of waiting to get in another shop to fix there mess said they would have two weeks they had it for three months and the must not have a squar or level or a rule the biggest joke I ever seen just a example. If you turn the bottom four link bar two turns it would fall out. That is why these postings are so important ok back to the regular subject

"Send it back"?
Right, now he has the transmission and your money.
Guess where this goes?

"Difficulty with staff"
The goal of every sole proprietor business is to hire someone to do the work, the profit is the difference between the price paid and his salary. If the transition from "hired" to "expert" is too soon (like week #2) and he screws up, it doesn't work.
They all do this: the gunk boy from BOCES built your 904.

Why is it slow?
He has a girlfriend, another business, outstanding warrants, bankruptcy, drinking problem, divorce.

That is how I felt , sending it back really was never an option , it was just a way for him to escape his responsibility.

I also wanted to find out exactly what was wrong inside the transmission from a 3rd party examination.

Worse than expected, more or less, nothing was right about it .. he took my money, tossed a bunch of mismatched stuff in a case and shipped it to me, and took my money,


wasn't just one small thing wrong, , it is a list of things ,

I'm sure he is reading the post

Thanks for posting this thread. I've considered going to him several years ago and was told not to back then. Although by the sounds of him and the way this individual addresses people, I wouldn't have patronized his establishment. I actually follow his page on social media but don't pay attention what's posted. I've dealt with one shady individual from this hobby and one was too much.

No personal experience, but...
The police, prosecutor, etc. are not interested, because no crime has been committed*. An attorney may well cost more than the money you lost, and take years to reach a trial date. As they see it, he didn't keep his promise, but you cannot even prove that without a contract or at least e-mails.
NO phone conversation is a contract. Trust nothing you cannot prove.

* This is where language in accusations becomes dangerous. Failure to keep a promise, even a written contract**, is not criminal.
"Fraud" requires proof of intent prior to the transaction. Difficult to prove, and legally prosecutable to the accuser and civilly recoverable by the vendor as slander/libel.

** Both parties' signatures on the same document, setting forth the terms including dates, performance, price, penalties, etc. Notarized as an "acknowledgement", not an affidavit and not "under oath".

Here's my humorous remarks on another shop problem: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/auto-body.htm

I appreciate the thread being here.

People shouldn't be afraid to post when a business does not treat them right.

Knowing who to avoid is very valuable information and not easy to come by.

You hit the nail on the head. I run my own small business, and decided a long time ago it was easier to keep things a one man operation to maintain good service. Any help I previously hired either turned out to be not very helpful, or left in short order starting their own business and attempting to steal clients.

If it was me getting screwed over I would be hitting all my Mopar Facebook groups. He had his chance to make it right.

Will 36 years in February for me being a one man band. I seen so many things screwed up over the years by someone's "help" I decided that it wasn't worth it for me to try and teach someone how to do it the way I have all these years so I just put in the hours and do it all myself. But I am getting to the point I can't go 100 mph with my hair on fire each day anymore, so I don't know what the future will hold.

I was going to post that maybe the guys he has working for him aren't very good too the other day when this all started. I have a couple manufacturers that I have dealt with issues the last few years and they only had one guy in the whole plant working awhile back, , or didn't even have material to build what I wanted....

Things really got screwed up after covid.

I am going to after I get it working , if that ever happens .. Parts are supposed to arrive tomorrow to try again to straighten the mess out

If he so chose to say anything near that , or be remorseful in any way I'd be understanding. all he would have to do is help with the bills or refund me part of the initial expense of everything since I did not get what I paid for


but, it looks intentional that he did it knowingly.

agreed

FWIW frankly i dont mind hearing the stories of failed exchanges. when you hear enough of them in support of the initial complaint and they are well-chronicled it serves me as a good warning.

as long as its someone else with the problem .. lol

by time its all over the whole thing will cost me double the original price looks like

time for "Judge Judy" perhaps ?
[just being a smartazz Dad. i feel your pain with this matter, so please don't take offense. i didn't mean this comment as such.]

If the race car is part of a business, the monetary loss is tax deductible as a business expense (along with entry fees, mileage, rebuilding parts, tires, supplies consumed by the car. ads for your shop, phone bill, at least part of our rent (% used exclusively for the car).
IIRC the business does not have to make money, but at least attempt to do so, check with your accountant.

This thread has just made me glad I learned how to build my entire drivetrain myself when I was a younger man. I've been a mechanic for other people for 45 years so maybe it's time to retire and open my own performance drivetrain shop
Hey BigDad I hope your new transmission works and lives a long life in your new project.

Gus

Nothing worse than someone keeping quiet about a corrupt business just to be the "good person". Thank you for ignoring the bad counsel to stay quiet and instead informing us, Bigdad. I almost spent a decent amount of money with this childish brat. Fortunately I went elsewhere with his advice I knew was bad. He's really not that sharp at the transmission game. I found good tips from Doug and Transman and built a killer trans my first go around.

Same here! I have friends that have had to have transmissions rebuilt this Summer and and it seems like 3-4 months lead time along with big $$$ out of pocket.

I can order up a kit and have the transmission rebuilt in a day for under $200.00.

I make it a point to learn how to do most everything myself and minimize having to rely on others.

If I would of gotten what I paid for , you can't build that for $200 , and again for the umpteenth time , it can't be near as simple as one would think ..

since JOHN COPE made a mess of things , he is supposed to know what he is doing ..and my new guy is still trying to figure out just what all is wrong ..

One of the positives of the internet (they're plenty of negatives) is that business can be called out and confronted on a scale previously not possible with their mistakes/incompetence/dishonesty and just plain unacceptable practices. Pre internet it was just word of mouth which went no where. Magazines never pointed out dishonesty because that business was one of their advertisers. Harold of Spitfire headers- his product was legit. His business started legit. But after some time he gladly took your money while never intending on delivering your headers. The early internet got the word out- albeit a bit too late to NOT send him $$. In the early 2000s the Mopar Hemi crate engines were self destructing. One of the big of two car mags called the accusations BS and called the accusers basically liars. That was when Hemi crate engine building was taken from a well known competent builder (I forget ) and given to the Cummins division. Those Cummins built Hemis had a super high failure rate. The early internet did spread the word although many still got screwed.

sadly, I did ask around., spoke to at very least 5 people all were backed up months if not years on orders to build it then , little did I know from the start it took almost that anyway and since it was a complete POS here I am , should of just waited for anyone other than JOHN COPE CRT Transmissions

I remember those days. A guy tried to unload one on me out of the blue. I pointed out how many people were on the forums complaining of many issues. Before that it was the slow word of mouth and the magazines ran blocker for people stuffing their pockets with dollars.

a 727 or 904 transmission is pretty easy to rebuild.
just pick up a copy of the Monroe book, plus a manual from the ATSG for your transmission.
then get the upgrade parts you need or want, and have at.
if i can do one, anyone can.

w/r/t civil judgment against the shop:
If you win, you may not get your attorney's fees or filing costs, and the Court does not collect your money, you have to do that.

Here is a link to a New York "dual acknowledgment" form: what the Notary does. Don't trust the Notary to understand this, many don't (I was a Notary for 25 years).

New York dual acknowledgment form

Lots of videos on youtube for disassembly and putting them back together. The old 727 rebuild video from technical videos is good, Paul Zank IIRC. Plenty of watchables out there.

REALLY simple transmissions 904 & 727. Hate to say it, but there is no black magic in these things that require 2K+ bills for a transmission only that most in here would use. 727 suck because to do it right you need the expensive front drum. If not for that, they would be much more reasonable to build. 727 needs drum, sprag, good valve body and rebuild kit and go. Whatever bands you want are out there. Give a fish, learn to fish deal. Even if you build it and it has an issue, better to use the resources here to help solve it than to freight it back and wait, you'd be pulling it either way.

One of my favorites was my friend got sold a story about the teflon seals vs the usual ones. CRT seals show up and the bag has the same part number as the cheap wholesale house had except were 2x the price. Lesson learned The fibers/steels, seals etc are all from the same suppliers if you have a wholesale location to buy from, nothing special about them.

TB valve bodies sure got expensive....

Yeah back in the day the only real feedback you get about parts suppliers and shops was if you weren't the guinea pig and one of your friends dipped their toes in first...
There was more than one occasion where I did business with a company that was given mad props by some of the magazines or article writers, and those companies turned out
to be complete pieces of you know what. That was pretty dirtballish back then, the mags would write glowing articles, get free parts for their projects but never talk about the junk that actually
didn't work. I think that's why some of those 6-10 issue long builds would suddenly disappear from the magazines never to be seen again.
There were a few mags I just quit buying because I knew they were bs'ing.

What's a "mad prop"?

compliment

The torqueflight is a very forgiving trans. My problem has been as you expect more from them the more “tricks of the trade” there are to make all the parts dance in harmony. The 727 I used to run was seemingly happy behind our W5 mill, but when the W8 came into play, and with data acquisition, we started experiencing part failures and noted shift time (rpm it took for shift) that probably wouldn’t even be noted with many street/strip combos. I ended up taking the unit to Pro Trans and they corrected some issues with it, including its tendency to throw front clutch pack springs (still a mystery). The 904 in my car was built in the mid/late 90’s by a good builder out of Minneapolis for my dads then 400hp combo. Again attention to detail perhaps is the reason it’s surviving low 9 sec passes (I know if you went to him and said “here’s what I’m going to do….” This would NOT be the unit he’d build). I’ve had it apart and there’s some nice machine work. Drums drilled for fluid evacuation. An extra shim behind the pump. Spacers on the apply pistons. Stuff I’m sure that somehow makes everything work “in time”.

I just hope the guy at the present shop can figure this out….. that wagon needs to run!

it runs , just doesn't move

If this stuff was easy, everyone would be doing it. You will get it sorted out. Heck even my Liberty had issues right out of the box, but Liberty took care of the issue immediately. Mistakes happen. It's how the company takes care of those issues is what matters.

One mistake I can live with , two .. Ok, kind of understand that too but, this thing isa full of them. and the hits keep coming ( and the bills ) and no resposiblity from John Cope of CRT ..

In my younger years I put in a couple of shift kits and swapped torque convertors. No real experience. I paid a shop to rebuild a 727 I had to put into a restored 'Cuda I was doing. The transmission worked for a while, then started slipping in high gear and eventually wouldn't shift into 3rd at all. I drained the fluid and it was clear, not burnt. I called the shop that built the transmission, they said send it back. I had moved by then so that was 300 miles away now. I said, what the hell and bought the Monroe book and started taking the transmission apart. I found the issue was a bad front drum. The seal was getting eaten up over a casting flaw that must have been there since day one. I totally rebuilt this transmission with no prior experience and it still works beautifully 20 years later. I am no professional mechanic, just followed Monroe's directions. Very straightforward and clear. Go for it. Tear that unit down, and you'll learn so much and gain so much confidence. I have rebuilt several since then for myself and friends, and they have all gone well.

I wish all the how-to books were as good as Munroe's.

When everyone mentions the Monroe Book is this the one?
Could not find "Monroe"...
https://www.themotorbookstore.com/torqueflite-a-727-transmission-handbook.html

That book you posted the link to that says Carl H. Munroe at the bottom of it .... YEAH... that is it

The Tom Hand - Chrysler Torqueflite book is also REALLY an excellent book to get
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/chrysler-torqueflite-a904-a727-tom-hand/1141062664

Buy the Monroe book from Amazon here:
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1557883998/victorylibrary

i should have posted a link for that. sorry.........
the other thing to keep in mind, is "cleanliness is next to God....."
in other words, keep everything CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN !

Thank You!

All good and Thanks

Back to the original topic


John Cope from CRT transmission is Lowell Indiana built a 904 transmission that had ZERO chance to work , he installed the wrong parts , he even out the rear clutch in backwards ,,

wrong convertor, wrong pump , wrong input shaft

I called him to speak about it , he yelled send it back and hung up on me

close to $5000 , gone ,

Nice way to treat a customer


Be careful dealing with people that treat you like this if you have a problem ,


John Cope , you should be ashamed of your work , your product and yourself.

Do you have any pictures of this disaster? How could the rear clutch have been put in backwards?

Race parts assembling is like brain surgery, it is fricking absolutely impossible to keep it to clean

junk

more junk

One of the first "race " converters I bought had the pump snout not centered by .003 or so, it would leak a little when revved up or driving it above 1500 RPM
My message is I had it replaced and used it until I sold that car

That is 1 crazy looking pump drive extension like it was for a 3/8" mid plate. I gave up on CRT also

So, the slotted hub will fit in a pump designed for a hub with flats? Who installed the converter?

I'd box that stuff up and send it to him!

Another reason NOT to "send it back": despite the messages exchanged, it may arrive COD for both the shipping and the repairs.
What do you do now?
If you refuse it, you've lost everything.
If you accept it, you may get the same garbage back, again!

It slid right in , just like it's supposed to .. no reason to think it wasn't right , ..

That’s what intrigued me…. but to be fair I’m not sure Bigdad knew there was an A500 style pump gear in the trans, plus the converter provided was wrong. It was unfortunate that it slid in…. perhaps if it fought them they’d had the amazing discovery that the pump drive was different. Of course this would have just prolonged the agony of having to get the correct converter before discovering the rest of the mayhem awaiting them inside.

there is that , regardless it was all wrong, we even called him and questioned him when trans arrived ..and was told all was well , he knew what he was doing ... wellll ....

Its called The Cope A Dope.

BIG DAD, has he responded to you at all? Any signs of him helping you out? Or is he just doing burnouts in his red phord? Id be SOOOOO PISSSSSSERRRR,,, MAD Id buy a ticket and pay him a visit over 5K....

If you Even need anything looked at tranny wise Im not too far from ya, and I could come up and help you go through one. VERY SIMPLE TRANS!

Nothing from him , too busy posting on facebook to take care of a customer

To be fair (I didn’t say right….) he did respond to your post on FABO (think it was cut and pasted here earlier on). However you chose to have it addressed by an outside source (which I probably would have done to). I’m still pretty disappointed that he did not reach out to you in some manner….. + the fact he apparently didn’t order the correct converter for the trans HE built. Just so wrong in so many ways…..

Transmission internally was wrong anyway, if he would of ordered right pump and convertor. it would of still ate itself and ruined everything. .. I've sent him emails, asking what his plans are to make it right . no response

Maybe it is time to get law enforcement involved, locally at your home town, county and state levels as well as filing charges of intrastate theft in his home town, county and state as well as at the Federal level in your state
I've had to do that twice on out of state flaky businesses, the results were GREAT

NOTHING will happen with that...

I think I would just cut my losses and move on. Life is too short.

I did that once, and it worked. I bought a part for a specific make and model of car from a US company. When I got the part, it wasn't for the generation of car I ordered it for. The company sales guy told me that they figured it was close enough to what I needed and I should make it work, since it was too much trouble to have it shipped back. There really wasn't anyway this part was going to work. I asked for my money back even if I had to eat the shipping, they said sure, then stopped responding. I figured being from Canada, I was go to be SOL on getting anything back.
I hounded them and phoned for a few weeks, no action. I phoned the closest police station to them and talked to a detective, I sent him my invoice and the details of the transaction, he said phone them, and tell them they have a day to return my funds or they're getting charged with fraud. I phoned the company, told the receptionist what the detective said, and gave her the case number, with the detectives name. A few hours passed, I got a call that my refund should be back on my credit card, and it was. I guess the company phoned the detective to see if the trouble coming was real, and it was.

Appreciate the advice but, I think I'll work a bit harder to get refunded my money , I am not about to take a hit like this without an effort to get something done

For five grand on the line you could invest in doing a small claims case yourself. Collecting would be another challenge, but you may feel better just getting validation this wasn’t how it was supposed to be. Depends on if you want to throw more money on traveling there, but money isn’t always what it comes down to.

For $5k I'd be on a plane and bring a friend! LOL!

Sounds like I am very very lucky to have a really good trans guy... back in December I placed an ad in the parts wanted section looking for a 4 inch stroker crank for my R3 block ( still don't have one ) a person answered stating his friend had one and gave me his email . I did he gave me an address to send a money order to ( the address was in a different state than him , should have been my first clue something was wrong ) I sent the m.o. to the address ( according to Google maps it was a mobile home ) .. well it was a scam , the guy that answered the ad deleted his account , the recipient of the money order says he can only refund my money to a bank and to give him my account number .. yea right. he got mad when I called him a thief .. well then what are you? I don't see my $720 refund ! the point of this is ... I called the police in the town I sent the money order to as well as my local police and they basically told me there is nothing they can do.. I did however fill out a form with the Post office law enforcement alleging fraud with all the information I had on the scammer but I haven't heard anything .

Make sure you present the documentation to the Postal Inspector, not some counter person in the local P.O.

May want to contact the county sheriff and see if they have a squad that handles this sort of thing. If not move up to the state police and ask them if they will.
Sometimes just a phone call from LE is enough to get you your $$.

they're getting charged with fraud

More proof that cops are not lawyers. No matter what he told you, the District Atty. will not charge.
"Fraud" requires proof that they intended to cheat you before the transaction.
Even if true, your word is not enough.

Maybe you have never lived where the law enforcement is NOT looking to get out of work
One phone call to a county sheriff's office in N.C. got me a refund overnight on having a RB custom manifold made for a centrifugal supercharger motor that I had been getting the runaround for six months from the owner of that company He had quoted me 3 to 4 months max in late August of that year, I started calling in January about when they were going to ship it and it was always next week, next week
I'll have another company make it for me now like CFE or Weinle (SP?)

I thought you all would enjoy this gem too ..

The tail shaft bolts leaked. tried to tighten them , they were stripped out .. his cure , goop them up with silcone and basically glue them in place , he is a hack

No, it has to do with them being arrested, charges are dismissed, then they sue YOU, and the police.
Fraud is not a matter of opinion, it's statutory.

You could try going to the Indiana AG site and filing a claim and see what shakes out.

https://www.in.gov/attorneygeneral/consumer-protection-division/

Did a similar deal with a GER converter when I lived in NoDak. Got my purchase money back.

Mfg. don't like to be sued, and respond to threats NOT because they will lose in Court.
Their legal bills will be higher than just giving you back the money. The payment is described as "to avoid the expense of litigation", and admits no wrong.

How would I know these things?

My office for 20 years. Yes, it's the one on all those TV shows.

John Cope CRT racing transmission of Lowell Indiana, built me a transmission. that is 100% junk

Maybe he didn’t built it? I don’t know how many people work there, I would’ve sent it back as he offered. But that’s me. I feel your pain.

I agree.

If my facebook search is correct, he owns 3 businesses, so making it right shouldn't be that big of a deal.

so he could make a bigger mess , no thanks

thanks , filled out and sent

HAHAHAHA !!! ......GER........... HAHAHAHA !!! [sorry, not really funny, but i couldn't help myself. ]

Yeah those slick 2 page ads sucked me right in!