EPA and all post '75 vehicles

'Quote:
I emailed (Holley) Tech Support yesterday with specific questions about some of the other headers they offer for 82-92 Camaros and Firebirds, current products and the possibility of anything new in the future, and this was the reply I received today:

"Unfortunately, we do not carry any headers for 3rd gen Camaro any longer. Due to new rules by the EPA, we had to discontinue any of our headers for the 3rd gen Camaro until further notice."

Sure enough, none of the header part numbers come up at Holley at this time. LS swap or Gen 1 versions included.

So, has this situation popped up on other platforms or manufacturers?'

www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=66323&sid=718364d5879cad2a9146ae34cde68eaa

How can they do that when the cars are over 25 years old?

How does the 25 year mark come into play?

It sounds like they're aligning with CARB for now, anything pre-1975 is exempt from smog checks and inspections.

For us here in commy NY, it means we no longer have to have the smog gear on the vehicle.

Last year Colorado came out with the no louder then OEM law..... Cat back kits are a $500 ticket as I found out for a very mellow one on my parts runner and its a 2015.

I have a tuned ecm/pcm on a newer mopar and a peddle commander and was told they are illegal as well. They didnt see my stealth cold air intake or im sure it would of been brought up.

It seems some states are shooting for if its not all oem its wrong. Cant even add fog lights or like things.

I have one 76 and im wondering if I should buy the 3 inch in/out magnaflow cats and put them on preemptively even though im in a no smog county.

But I am on the state line and have a farm in KS so I may just swap up homes and plate all in KS.

Things are getting really stupid and only going to get worse. If people do not think our old rigs will not be taxed and regulated or even outlawed they might think again.

my daily is a 82 cordoba that i wanted a simple dual exhaust 4 shops said no , and i am like its a : 1982 car why dose it matter

Yeah, I have no idea if any shops will actually allow you to change out the OEM crap on a mid 90's vehicle...But according to state law, its not prohibited if its 25 years or older.

I have always owned vintage stuff and never had to deal with that rule, but the insurance companies here have gone full commy as well. Especially Haggerty after they sent me a policy and then renigged on the deal and upped my premium after I had sent in the initial payment. And it did allow for racing it without coverage at said event.

Randy K <dragula426@gmail.com>
Fri, May 6, 2022, 3:40 PM
to ANNE

No deal...

On Fri, May 6, 2022, 3:20 PM PAQUIN, ANNE <ANNEPAQUIN@allstate.com> wrote:
Randy:

So, after underwriting reviewed the pics you sent, they reached out. They feel that this is a race worthy vehicle due to several features. They feel that you could race it and not just have it as a Street Car like the conversation you had with them initially. Removing the 2 other vehicles, flagged this one for seeing how it was set up.

If you want to continue with the policy, the premium did go up to $1708 AND the attached letter would have to be signed and sent back.

Please READ carefully the letter. ( no racing !!!! )

The new down payment schedule is attached. The new pay plan @ 4 payments would be $479.50 to get it started.

Let me know if you want to do this and get coverage in place with the signed form and the new down payment.

I do NOT have any say or control in any of this. Hagerty underwriting has final say and we don't know until it gets submitted for purchasing a policy.

Ouch. My 1973 Cuda is insured by Hagerty, and my premium is $233/yr. But this is a street car...

Beautiful car 440Jim

Because they also fit cars that are new enough to fall under the control of EPA.

Everyone is going to have to modify a car into kit car status, get their own special VIN and declare themselves the OEM.

Well the law has ALWAYS been the law that no modification to any emissions equipment was allowed. It's not new they are just now choosing to enforce it vigourously. It all started with so many TV shows, yes TV shows showing modifications that were illegal. Some DC bureaucrat saw or caught wind and it has been downhill ever since. They have been going after the manufacturers and sellers since, about 18 months or so vigourously. Some states that will include 67 and up vehicles like here in NV and AZ. They are coming after your cars and they are starting at the source. And the laws are on their side federally. Write your representatives, support SEMA about all a guy can do.

I recently went through this trying to find a set of Hooker headers for my 1990 chevy silverado. All the part numbers for that particular year don't come up any more.
The guy on the phone at Holley (who owns Hooker) was great. He said it's all due to the new EPA rules and government crackdowns on this mess.

Looks like their small and big block Mopar Comp headers that cross over from musclecar era into the smog era have had the catalog listings roughly edited to (almost) appear
they won't work on anything post 74.

As someone familiar with cataloging, that was probably the best way to handle it, but personally I would have cleaned it up just a little further than
that in the interest of preserving the product line from future scrutiny.

This won't end at just exhaust. I would expect this to migrate into access to aftermarket camshafts, bigger fuel injectors, tune programs, etc for all the newer cars and diesels so they become hard or impossible to buy.

clearly a CYA move.
as a fabricator for close to 50 years or so, anything can be made to fit/work given enough thought and effort.
in a way, i'm kind'a glad i'm on the downhill side of "having fun". going forward doesn't look very promising, except for "virtual experience" head sets..........

1974 was the year we started using catalytic converters. It has been the law ever since that happened that you could not modify the engine to affect emissions. And the issue is when you break the law who enforces the law? In my state Missouri the emission laws are checked by the vehicle inspectors when you buy your license. I was a former inspector, and we were just to do a visual inspection. If modifications were visible, then we were to flunk the car and they could not get their license. St. Louis and Kansas City areas had stiffer inspections where you had to pass a tail pipe test and then after 1996 OBD II you have to plug into your diagnostic connector and the inspection station checks for codes and a functioning system. Enforcement on older cars was pretty lax just because the inspectors did not want to mess with it much. I will give you one example I had a student who owned a S-10 he put a V-8 in it. He got pulled over by a state patrol and that patrolman was smart enough to know they never put a V-8 in an S-10, he impounded the car for emission violations. It is not that people have been breaking the law it is that nobody has spent the time and money to enforce the law. I never asked if the inspection station who passed the S-10 was ever penalized.

The creep of over reach can be found at your local traffic light. In addition to the red light camera, there are now sound sniffers that can tag you for a loud exhaust. How you vote at even the local level affects everything.

I'm sure you can get all the headers you want from the Chinese.... just giving them more business Typical EPA, even if the mod makes the engine run cleaner and or better (with better mileage too) they won't allow it. Last I looked, it says CONGRESS shall pass no law.... not the EPA!

I was on the Jegs' website yesterday and noticed that their options to look at parts by year has been amended to a cut off of 1974, I thought that was an odd coincidence.

What I don't get is, based on my understanding of the RPM act, you can modify a production vehicle to be a race car. I've seen plenty of S10's and 80-90's Camaros at the track over the years. How could Hooker or whomever be stopped by the EPA from making headers for those cars, since they can be modified to be race cars under current laws? As long as these companies state the intended purpose of the products, wouldn't it be on the purchaser if they choose to use the parts for something that is illegal?

I wish it was true.

As of the end of December 2022, the RPM Act still has not passed. Closer, but still not a law. Richard Petty met personally with key lawmakers, and Anton Brown testified.

With the Dems more interested in January 6, and the Rep more interested in stopping Biden, I am not sure what will get accomplished in this Congress.

I have signed the SEMA petition several times over the last few years. I get the usual political responses from the usual Dem politicians, and semi-hopeful responses from my Rep congressional representatives.

Keep hoping for the best, but it seems the EPA is just moving forward in ruining our hobby.

John

Thanks for clarifying!

A quick look at Dougs, Hedman, and JBA shows no obvious changes on the products I can recall.

Being late model focused I'd think JBA would show most of their product line completely gone, but can't find any big changes.

Taking a wild guess it was probably a Sentinel Capital Partners (Holley Ownership) cya thing rather than The Man Keeping Them Down.

In the same breath I'll say Hedman's cataloging is super outdated, they still show F body headers not interchanging to M body
and things like that. Not showing vehicle coverage in your marketing is lost sales.

Because the EPA edict now has been changed so that it is illegal to sell parts that can effect emissions, regardless of their intended purpose.

Yep, I've been catching up on things this afternoon, just wasn't aware of some of the more recent events.

That same user (skinnyZ) as linked in the OPs first post, posted this on a 3rd gen F-body forum also, which I believe was the focus (by platform) of his post. Removed were long tube, true dual exhaust headers and supporting system components for '82-'92 F-bodies. These parts were NEVER EPA or CARB compliant, and were always labeled as For Off Road Use Only. These cars never came with true dual exhaust, so it was a configuration that was never emissions certified.

I've seen this topic many places now, but I have yet to see anyone provide documentation that his is the result of NEW rule making from the EPA. It may reflect increased pressure from EPA concerning racing, hence the effort of the last few years to pass the RPM Act (which I too have signed many times, and encouraged others to do so as well).

As far as I can see, there is nothing new here. Emissions certified (CARB approved) headers (shorties with A.I.R. tubes in the 3rd gen. F-bodies case) are still available. Only the non-compliant long tubes for true duals are gone. That's a business choice on the manufacturers part as far as I can tell. Seems to have kicked off with Holley, as part of an overall trimming of their products, including layoffs of staff, which is something a LOT of businesses are doing in preparation for an expected recession.

It would be the same with post-'74 B-bodies. The long tubes I could get for say my '77 Cordoba, were never emissions approved parts as far as I know. Could they be tested and certified? Sure. But that would be a HUGE expense (extensive lab and road testing for each and ever model and engine/trans configuration) for an OLD catalog part #. Is there enough demand to ever justify that expense? No way. So they drop the part.

Has someone seen something more that I have missed (entirely possible)?

We have had to deal with all this over 20 years ago here in CommieFornia. I'm just amazed you guys got to go this long before anything happened. One of the reasons I part out 1976+ vehicles out here as the smog laws are too strict to make into affordable drivers. My 75' Trailduster is smog exempt, but if it was a 1976 model, I would have parted it out due to it being unmodifiable by state laws. e happy you got to go this long before they make you a compliant slave.

that
I would have to find it but one of the 1st was Boyd. He was using old car tittle on his new Boyd cars. But him on big trouble for tittle swaps and not meeting new car standards as they were new cars.
As,far as, kinda recent shows few years back the place doing diesel trucks was fined for emissions. Show called Diesel Brother's was
removing and modifying the trucks. Show made them a target for doing so. And also shipping modified stuff over state lines where not legal. Place im Utah says Sparks Motors on the gate.
I also don't see how Dave Kindig and others get away with pulling an old car or truck in the shop. Then new frame, supention, drive line, then say, ok body is shot and put new body or cab on but same car or truck.

The sad thing is as the Car enthusiast demographic ages out, politicians know that SEMA and other pro-hot rod organizations are rapidly losing political clout (which = Dotation dollars) meanwhile the green initiative lobbyies are almost fully backed by both sides of the political Aisle.

It may only get worse, particularly with states Like California and Colorado driving more and more restrictive agendas.

The logic of the 25 year exemption (in NC cars over 30 or 35 years no longer require inspections) was that as new cars come into the market by the millions each year, the number of older vehicles proportionally reduce in terms of % of total cars on the road, and the ones that ARE still driving are likely owned by car enthusiasts that have a vested interest in properly maintaining them and attrition very likely takes out a percentage of those remaining.

Therefore (logically) the problem (in terms of the overall) reduces to where it's not much of an overall problem at all.

But now it seems those collector/hobbiest cars are again very easy targets for someone or some politically motivated group who is looking for an obvious "scapegoat" that isn't in-line with the current political thinking.

I don't like the way things are trending I'm afraid it might only get worse for car enthusiasts...I 100% hope I'm wrong but I think it would be hard to argue with the logic of how I think it's trending.

Enjoy them while you can!

Just watched a show on Motor Trend last night where the guy bought a nice original Model A pickup really cheap. These Model A's used to be expensive, but the generation that fondly remembered that era of vehicles has passed away, so now there are more cars than there are interested buyers.

Our generation will go the same route, and the next generation will be into something different... probably hopped-up "clean" electric vehicles. Then the government will issue legislation limiting how often / much they can charge the batteries.

Vote for Freedom while we're here and realized everything in this life is fleeting! Our real treasure is what God offers after we leave this world for the next one!

I see the debate back and forth on this. I'm a younger guy and there's not much the automotive manufacturers build these days that interest me. Some have fun engines but, the styling leaves a lot to be desired or at subjectively on my behalf. Most vehicles I see driving around in this area are crossovers. It's rare that I see an old car out these days. It was refreshing to see a guy out enjoying his late 70s Trans Am. Shoot, it's rarity to see even a Challenger, Charger, or Mustang here with a Camaro or two sprinkled in.

We have never been very good at picking what will be really collectable and valuable in the future, have we? Otherwise, we wouldn't have destroyed all the cool muscle cars and motorcycles that we did. And I agree that some of our era cars will not stay particularly valuable. But then again, some will never be worth less.

But comparing the falling values of the Model As to the future values of real muscle cars is not a viable comparison. At least IMHO.

Saw the same show. Hoovie.
My best friend's dad was a Model a, and T builder and had many of them. Did so till he passed.
Was also a,WW2 vet.
All.the nice A and T cars were big bucks buy can be had for pennies on a dollar now.
But I think muscle cars cost will stay up there since things like over Drive Trans and modern amenities can be added easy to keep new younger guys happy.
The old As and Ts are a major pain to drive long distances at slow speeds of today's world. So limited market that brings sales prices down

summit still shows long tube headers for all gm models, 95 camaro . Summit, hooker, procomp, hedman etc.
At least here in Texas.
I have seen literally no changes in parts made/sold due to epa vs rpm act etc.
many are in stock, which is a big shock, others are on back order till may, march etc- as is normal these days.
Parts supplies are going to get tighter /longer wait times for at least the next 12- 18 months just due to supply chain difficulties in bulk raw materials.
fwiw- hope it helps.
Might want to try looking at texas summit stores- again, we havre not been told even once that later model parts are not available due to epa and we are back up close to 80k a year on parts purchases , about a third of those are 80's-90's and newer, well, maybe a third, have not really run the numbers by years of manufacture .
The point is- we arent seeing those issues here - has not affected us. Just purchased intake, carb, headers etc for a 78 Ford fore customer car- again, no issues.
95 camaro, headers, intake, carb, cam , rockers, shifter etc, etc- no issues.
Perhaps this will be of some help to someone.
Blessings all.

What happened to the parts coming with a tag that read

"for off highway use only"

Wouldn't that circumvent this mess