W9 Small Block - Quest for the 9's

After spending over 2 years building a W9 Ritter block 434 the performance results are a little disappointing. I was expecting this engine combo to easily put the dart in the 9 second zone.Any tuning suggestions greatly appreciated.
Car details:
1972 Dart Bracket car, 3275 lbs w/driver 51/49% wt list
Ritter 48* Block
4.175 bore
4.00" stroke Scat Ultralight
Manley M300 rods w/ CARR 5/16 bolts
Diamond dish pistons 13.25 comp
W9 heads fully CNC ported by Tilburg Racing Engines in Trout Run, PA
2.15 / 1.60 Titanium valves
Mopar "420" 4150 manifold ported by Tilburg
Bullet Roller 275/280 Dur .730/.725 Lift 110 cam
Jesel 1.65 Rockers
950 Promax carb
1" SuperSucker spacer
1 7/8-2" step 3 1/2 collector custom headers
727 race trans
Turbo Action 4600 converter, Flashes 5000
Dana 4.88
12.2 / 31.25 Phoenix slicks
Leaf / Ladder bars
QA1 single adj shocks
36* timing
Foot brake 2500 launch / 7800 shift
Tried a 9375 1050 Dominator on a 1.5" adaptor and it went 0.05 faster on a sketchy track at the end of the season
416 car no. on time slips

W9 head and intake pics

Engine pics

I’m not a W9 guy but your converter stall needs raised bigtime, and I mean bigtime

I talked to Paul at turbo Action yesterday and he suggested rebuilding the converter with 5500-5700 stall. ATI wanted to build one similar to what we have 3000 launch 5000 stall

Still not high enough for a W9 combo. Edelbrock heads like mine A 5800 is ok.

My old 9w 440 with 11-1 pump gas went 9:50. Yor cam is close to the one I had. My converter was 5000 stall, 456 gear, 904 w/ brake. What are your flow numbers? Something’s off.

My converters when I ran my 727 were 5800 and 6200 stall. Not going to pick up the 10+ mph you’re lacking though. Would have been interesting if it were dynoed.

264-272 at .050" 108 LSA .750" lift at retainer is what I’m running for a cam which is smallish in the W8/9 circles. 4.56 gear 29.5x10.5 tire. Been a really reliable set up. Dynoed 773 @7200.

Looks great and I'd say you have all the right parts. Don't get discouraged, you just need to work at it. Do you have a data logger in the car? A data logger can really speed up the learning curve. If it is a new combination then don't be surprised to find several tenths in the details. Shock settings, tire pressure, converter, carb tuning, cam tuning, ignition curve, etc.

It seems to me that the car is very under geared. The motor isn’t getting into its power range to move the car. The most important thing you could do now is take the motor out and dyno it. Then you will know what converter and rear end ratio you need without guessing. When you get that right you will see drastic improvement.

That would be my recommended course of action as well.

Beautiful car, by the way.

I only worked on one 440 ci small block, It had 360-1's on it but I'm pretty sure it wasn't shifted at 7800. If you over rev at shift points It can slow it down pretty good.Converter is way off.Think of it this way the stall/flash should be within 1000 rpm of the shift point. So either you need a 6800-7000 converter, or you need to shift at 6000.

I would be curious what the cranking compression is.

A 440 cube small block with a 275 at .050 should make a lot of down low power.

I agree with others, you need more stall, I think it needs more carb too. Did you dyno the engine? Have you tried less timing? My Indy headed 434 made the most power at 34°, any more and power fell off. I'd talk to your head guy about converting the intake to a dominator flange.

IMHO your 60' and 1/8 mile et and mph are down too. My street/strip Dart has been 6.25 @ 110 and 10.008 @ 134.75 on pump 93 at 3293#, foot braking at 2000 rpms. it went 6.33 @ 109 in street trim last fall. The engine is 4.125" stroke and 4.09" bore R1, 11.2-1, 266/271° @ .050", .711/.719" at the retainers, ported Indy 360-1's and ported Indy intake, a 1050ish Thumper built 4150, 1 7/8" Hedmans. 727, Coan 8" that flashes 5600, Strange S-60 with 4.10 gears, Cal-Tracs, monos and Viking D/A all around. It's currently on a 275 radial, but previously was on a 325 radial. The engine made peak power at 6750 on an engine and chassis dyno, I shift it 68-6900 rpms.

I think my car will run well into the 9.90's in decent conditions. With some tuning you should run a couple tenths faster than mine. Keep after it, you'll get there. Great looking Dart too.

Converter ain't converting

I know they’re all different, but we got better numbers with 31-32 degrees of timing.

i im no expert but i dont know if any of u guys ever seen my cuda run but for what it is shes a nasty bi@!@@## 60foot 127 on a foot brake 418 small motor

200psi cranking compression

1.27 60.....
whats the rest of the time slip???

Pull the engine and get it on the dyno. With your headers, your carb, your ignition.

You are blaming the engine and you don’t have a clue how much power you really have.

You’ll get a much better converter if you give them actual power numbers.

If you think about it, the time and money you have spent so far would have paid for a day or two on a dyno.

There is a reason that all serious engine builders have a dyno or access to a dyno. They ain’t stupid.

Of course, if you have been on the dyno and jus didn’t post the numbers then all this ^^^ doesn’t matter. I’m sure I speak for many here that we’d love to see the numbers if it went across the pump already.

easy tony lol

Tried 34 and 35 degrees timing, car lost a. Tenth both ways.
Ran a shift loop at 7200, 7400,7600 and 7800.ET was close from 7400 to 7800 but mph was higher at 7800

Love those big inch small blocks !!!! there are some bad [censored] small block owners on here chiming in ! .... I agree .. get it on a dyno.

normally all my small blocks like timing

36 degrees seems to be sweet spot for this engine/car combo

See it all the time, too small of a carb is a major choke point for starters......

I too agree with the dyno, even if it's just a chassis dyno. When I built my 434 the dyno day cost me $450, and it was the best money spent on the entire build. Plus, I made new friends and had a great time.

I know very little about the newer SBM stuff....But all my small blocks, and even big blocks like timing. A lot more than you're running.

My other thought is, with the winters here so long, maybe we book a dyno day at Jan-Cen again, and flog it.....Been actually thinking of calling Mike over there myself and book a day with my Hemi....

I believe it was Brett that told me that the more efficient the combustion chamber is the less timing they need. I may be remembering wrong though. LOL

Have you talked to some W9 guys about the timing? The W9 combustion chamber might need different timing than what you expect. Not a lot of people with those heads so talk to right folks.

An engine dyno session would be informative but not really required. Lots of guys go down the track fast without having their engines on the dyno. If you can find a good chassis guy in your area it might make your journey shorter. It is easy to get lost when you're trying to sort out axle ratio, stall speed, air pressure, shock adjustments, chassis adjustments, etc. Sometimes just having an expert watch the launch is all you need to get going in the correct direction.

As ValiantRich said I would get it out and on the dyno. Something is way off, the car cannot get out of its own way down low for sure. 60/330 numbers are anemic at best for that combo. Te dyno will at least let you know what it makes and what it wants for gearing and converter for starters.

When I went from the 408 to the 434 my car picked up I'd guess about 100 hp and almost 6 mph in the 1/8, 104.34 to 110.1. The OP's car should be around 112-113?

Curious why only 13.25:1?

The intake w/ adapter could be chocking it some. Compare your intake with one Brett Miller modified. I agree with others. It needs more stall ! A chassis dyno could help. I'd love to see flow numbers too. Not a big fan of the leaf link . Are all cylinders healthy ?

Grudge car

13.25:1 compression because we bought NOS NASCAR pistons from Kent Ritter off the shelf when we bought the block and heads then had to flycut them for P/V clearance.
Tilburg CNC ported the heads but didn't flow them and the local machine shop's flow bench was down when we were building the engine.

I talked to Dom at Thumper carbs the other night. He said that he could build a 1000ish 4150 BLP based carb for this manifold. Would we be better off building a 1050 Dominator with adaptor and have the option to open up the manifold to 4500 opening later?

My “gut” feeling is that race car you will be happier with a 4500 and specific intake in the end. Results will vary but on a hunch we went with Brett Millers 420-2 intake. Our thoughts were that with our smallish cam (heads flowed N of 400) that the larger plenum would maybe soften the hit….. we we wrong. Way wrong. It absolutely loved it. Maybe too much. I agree with some others. You got some nice parts, you just gotta get them to dance. It’s unfortunate that you didn’t go the dyno route and who CNC ports head and doesn’t know what they flow?? If you built the mill my hats off to you. I was confused enough with the idiosyncrasies of the W8 stuff but with the investment in a new R3 I consulted the professionals. My engine was built and dynoed by Brian at IMM. He actually took control and most likely guided me in the proper direction of “it’ll be fast, but it’ll be fun (lower maint)”. I honestly see with your stuff that low nines will be in the bag.

To take full advantage of a Dominator I'd either buy another intake or modify mine to a Dominator flange. When I was planning my 434 I talked to Brett a couple times on the phone, his advice was that if I was going to run a 4150 intake to run a 4150 carb, not an adapter and a Dominator.

This is the carb Dom built me, I already had the main body, so I sent it to him, and he built me a carb.

I really don't understand all the sharp edges in the pix of chamber, air horn etc. Anything wider than 15° transition "trips" flow; the cure is a small radius, up to 3/8".

I'm sure you're really frustrated/disapointed in the results. But you have a lot of good pieces there that you're absolutely right the car should be way into the 9's.

130mph @ 3275 is only showing about 550hp at the crank. Could the carb or converter be better/different? Sure. Is it going to pick up the 150hp+ that missing? I highly doubt it.

It seems that there is something more majorly wrong... I would start with the basics.

1) Is the Throttle all the way open. I know that's a dumb thing, but certainly done it, and seen others do it before.
2) Do a leak down on all 8 cylinders. Maybe it tagged a valve or two on accident.
3) How close is the carb to the scoop? Is it sealed to the carb? You might want to try either running the car without the spacer to get more room for the air to make the turn, or without the hood completely as a trial.
4) Calculate the converter slip at the stripe. What RPM is it crossing the line at (needs to be a very accurate number to do this, you can' guess). That will at least give you one piece of info on the "health" of the converter.
5) Is the timing curve stable (any chance this thing has a programable MSD that could accidentally have a wonky curve in it?)
6) Try sweeping the timing a little further. In my experience moving timing around, if 1 degree moved the car a full tenth, it's WAY off. It's possible it wants more, but maybe didn't have enough octane in it? (grasping at straws a big here).
7) Have you tried different fuel all together? I've seen a bad batch and or wrong octane really hurt power on occasion.


Obviously its a major pain in the ass as a last resort to yank the motor and dyno it. But if you do get to that point, at least you'll know if you should be chasing the motor or the car once you see a dyno sheet.

Answers to dizusters questions:
1. Yes, verified throttle was opening 100%
2. I'll have to do a leak down test
3. With the spacer the carb is very close to the hood scoop 1/2 to 3/4". Removed spacer thinking it would improve airflow into carb and car lost a tenth.Sealed carb to hood with and without spacer, ET did not improve.
Fuel pressure stays steady down the track, 8lbs 4150, 5 1/2 lbs Dom
4. Driver didn't get a good rpm at the stripe reading. Plan on installing a playback tach this year
5. Timing is stable with light at 5000. MSD diet with lightest springs, full advance by 1500. Going to try locking it out.
6. Tried 34,36,38. 36 gave best ET. how far do you suggest going?
7. Fuel was VP C12 from a 2 year old sealed drum because the engine build took much longer than expected with all the headaches. Plan on trying a fresh pail this spring.

Man I just looked your slips over again and man you gotta have a few issues going on. My sons duster that weights 3200 pounds ran 10.11 with my old 408 that I pulled out for its fourth rebuild. This was at keystone in summer heat. Edelbrock headed 408 with around 11.1 compression, 650 lift roller cam, 750 alcohol carb, 727 with 4.10 gears, 5600 stall. Shifting at 6700-6800 rpm. With his old stock crank 360 that ran 10’s he gained .5 going from a 4600 stall to a 5600 stall.

Through the years I have dyno tested several engines that came out of cars with very similar stories.

It was almost 100% of them making noticeably less power than expected......... and the car running on par with the results from the dyno test.
I can think of a couple where the owners each spent several thousands on parts for the car in an attempt to find the missing ET.

The other side of that story is....... one of my friends had a converter fail on his S/G car.
Bought a new high dollar unit from a big name supplier.
Car was waaaay down everywhere.
Sent it back, they adjusted it...... no change. This happened several times.
Everything was off. 60’, ET, Speed.
Had this been a new untested combo........ we would have suspected the combo was just off.
But the car had run way better for years previously, and ran what it “should” have.

Eventually, a converter was sourced from a different supplier, and the 60’ and ET came back. Speed was still down........new converter had enough slippage that the engine was on the limiter before the finish line. With the original converter, the speed was up 4mph and the engine never touched the limiter.

My suggestion is to dyno the engine.
At least then you’ll have the info needed to know what the car “should” run.

Two comments about what I see.......

Nowhere near enough stall(5000)

Looks like the bump steer situation really could use some attention

These two runs with 165lbs of ballast. After the 2nd run we discovered a broken converter. The 1st pass was quicker than we had anticpated. We were trying to slow to 9.25 index. One pass killed it.
Doug

Do you have a CCP reading?
Tell me your intake closing @ nominal ABDC (not .050") and rod length (4.00" stroke, 13.2 static CR), and I'll try to predict it.

200 psi cranking Comp
6.25 rod
64.5* intake closing @ 0.050 from cam card
Cam degrees to 107* with all springs installed

200 psi cranking will usually make really good power on race gas. I'm wondering if your gas is bad. You said it was two years old? I've seen bad gas cost 100 hp in a race engine on the dyno. It happens sometimes even with fresh pails of gas. The engine still runs but is soft on power. Try some fresh gas before you do anything drastic.

My old W9 motor was 14.1 roller was a little bigger with a 1250 APD carb 456 gear 6500 converter went 117 in the 1/8 so your down on power somewhere are the pistons a dome or flat top with the small chamber heads good luck with your new combo after rereading your post I see your using a dish piston my brother I’ll law ran the same piston in his W8 motor the car ran good but never like it should have when he started to look the motor over again he came up with maybe 10-1 compression not 12.5 like he was told

Very nice motor, keep after what has been suggested and you'll get there!

Rob,

I can lend you that 1250 I have....Maybe the carb IS suffocating it.

Hey Rob,

Something to think about. Earlier in the thread there was mention of combustion chamber efficiency/shape effecting timing. My 416 liked 29 degrees of timing on the dyno with my Brodix B1-BA heads anything over 31 degrees the HP really fell off. Worth a try.


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Put it on the Dyno
You'll spend a bunch of money and time chasing the power at the track.

The dyno is a tool to use to test with, the oil in the motor and the air entering the carb are nowhere near what they do in the car with the hood closed
Get your baseline setup on the engine dyno and then finishing tuning and testing it at the tracks you will race on

Considering I did my first hits using an ancient BG 750 and ran 9.6s short shifting I’d be amazed if the carb swap did anything for it. I ran a 598/4150 intake for years with a carb 1.48 venturi 1.79 throttle blade. We were pretty much 9.4-9.5 anywhere we’d go. On a heads up challenge race we entered I decided to try the old 4500/1050 we used on our W5 mill so I matched the 2” adapter to the intake and went to the track finding out we gained pretty much nothing and actually the 60 slowed over time slips from the previous visits. It’s unfortunate that I changed intakes and carb the same time I went from my 727 to 904 because it really picked up across the board. It’s now pretty much a 9.2 car but we’ve gone 9.09. Just shy of needing a chute.

Doug I’d FREAK the **** out if I lost that much on one pass….. I’d definitely be thinking “engine” issue off the top of my head.

you need alot more converter and alot more RPM..them small blocks love to revvvvvv

Pull the engine out and bring it down to Maryland.

So we can run it on the dyno and see what you have.

That way we can see if it’s something in the car or engine is really down on power.

I am Brett Miller look me up on FB 👍🏻

Mopar small block Cylinder head and intake tech.

Best recommendation so far, Brett and the Harshmans know more about your combination than most...

Any updates, it needs around 6500 converter

We would love to take it down to Brett but because of job obligations and family health concerns the car owner can't make the trip. He pulled the engine and converter. It's an old Turbo Action 4200. We sent it down to Paul at Turbo Action to have him cut it open and see how much he can raise the stall speed or build a new one. We are expecting to get the engine on the local dyno in the next week or two.

Good stuff, if the converter guy can get that stall up there it will make a big difference.

Just got onto your post. Read your specs on engine and hoping that your rod specs are a misprint. Assuming first that they are steel rods, but 5/16" rod bolts? Misprint??? Okay now of all the reply's on here. My advice, listen to w5dart66, Brett Miller. If you can't take your motor to him, talk to him. And my opinion, the converter stall you have would be okay for a big block. Several replies are correct, you need about 6000 stall. And the RPM you need to turn you need lighter internals. Such as Bill Miller aluminum rods, more compression, consult Icon pistons. They have made several pistons for sb W9's. Oh and one very large issue is you cars weight. If you can get 3 to 4 hundred pounds off you would be amazed at the difference. Good luck to you and before you spend a lot of money be very certain of the advice you take.

The Dart would easily be in the mid nines if we could get it to run autonomously Ha Ha

The rods are Manley Featherweight steel NASCAR qualifying rods with CARR 5/16 bolts

Dat be some good parts That is as long as their new (or near new,) if used not worn out and not ready to fail

As my good friend Al says, something is way off. I run a W9 450CID deal. I believe there are a lot of areas where you can better your combo.

Finally got the W9 434 on the dyno yesterday. It surprised me and actually made decent power numbers. Hopefully the converter was what held it back. Plan on ordering a new one tomorrow. Any suggestions on stall speed?

Changed jets in the 950 from 82P/88S to 79P/84S

Later in the day with the 950 carb

Tried a 9375 1050 Dominator

I’m confused about the data column on the right of the different screens........

Some show the corrected HP in the low 700’s, some show low 800’s.

The 700 HP numbers are torque graph at 5800, the 800 numbers are HP at 6900

Got it.

Well then, something doesn’t quite add up.

The Moroso chart shows 800hp@3275lbs to be capable of 9.18@147.

I figure the typical bracket car should run within about 10% of the Moroso chart.
At that it would be 720hp, which shows 9.48@142.

Hopefully you find the smoking gun for the missing performance.

What kind of HP was Tilburg expecting it to make?

Hopefully the smoking gun is the torque converter. It was a Turbo Action 4200 that flashed 4800 and dropped the the rpm a lot on shifts. Tilburg never really gave us a number. Kent Ritter figured around 800.

After talking to Brett last night, I think we will be ordering a 6500 converter. Just have to decide whether to go with turbo action or someone else

Coan or A1 in no particular order

Question about this pull.......

Was the throttle being pulled back after 7k?

Were any attempts at pulls to 7800 made?

Just wondering how well the power held on up at the top.

The throttle was pulled back at 7200. The dyno operator felt that from 20 years experience with the DTS water brake dyno that the dyno loading takes away 500-600 useable rpm so he stoped the pulls 500 below what we were shifting at.

FTI makes nice stuff