TF270 low deck stroker camshaft suggestion?

I'm currently in the planning stage of building a 400 stroker (4.250 stroke) for my 69 Roadrunner 5 speed (TKX) .
I would like to hear opinions and suggestions when it comes to selecting a camshaft and lifters for this build. The goal is to build a radical NA street engine that takes full advantage of the TF270 heads with 10.8:1 compression and a hydraulic roller (HR) camshaft.
I'm looking for some advice when it comes to how much camshaft / spring that I would need to take full advantage of theTF270's at the same time as it needs to survive on the street for at least a couple of summers:-)) The engine will be built around the following components: 230 casting 400 block (thick web), 4.25" stroker kit, TF270 heads, Indy 400-3 intake that will be ported and matched to the TF270's by Wilson Manifolds, Holley 1050cfm carburetor, Harland sharp 1:6 rocker arms, TTI 2 1/8" step headers. I'm currently looking at a HR camshaft with the following spec: 266/270 @ .050", .629/.635" lift with 1:6 rockers, 108LSA, spring pressure closed 155#@1.880" open 415#@.650" My question is really if this cam / spring combo will survive on the street? Will a HR lifter with its weight support the powerband of a camshaft and head combo like this? If I go HR what would be the best HR lifter to use in this combo? Is a solid roller an alternative? Would a solid roller survive on the street idling around 1000-1500RPM?

My $.02... forget using a hydraulic roller; buy good solid roller lifters with force-fed pin oiling

The "if it was mine" answer is... you haven't outlined enough of your performance goals / objectives to talk cam specs, yet

When I describe that I would like to take full potential out of the TF270's together with the specs on the cam that I'm currently looking at says quite a bit about my performance goal with this build.

When I describe the performance goals for my '73 Challenger, it's to run as close to 10.0 in the 1/4 as possible just as driven to the track, since that's as fast as the chassis and driver are legal.

When I describe the performance goals for my Challenger 1320, it's to be able to run in the 11s even in the summer heat, not just on great spring & fall days.

What you said is vague and not verifiable... it's a non-goal.

I would not rely on a stock mopar BB block with anything hyd. for performance unless you bush the lifter bores for proper oil control, hyd.rollers can be noisy/they are heavy/high rpm can be a problem unless you run them down almost as a solid and I don't think the spring pressures they give are adequate for proper operation. Or just put s/rollers on it. What you are building is a bracket engine so go with parts that make it so, go solid roller. Hyd. rollers work fine in chebbies because the blocks were designed for them with taller lifter bores, mopars were not.


A friend has a '69 RR, 50/50 street/strip car, drives to the the track and to shows, 4.500 stroke BB wedge, runs a mild .625" 260/270@.050 s/roller, springs are 195/600lbs open, been like this for 2yrs, no issues, has spray bar oiling, as said don't idle it too low or for too long. Forgot to mention its a race built 727 with 4200stall verter.

Here is a short video of a 700 hp 505 that I helped put together. This engine has TF270 heads and is 11:1 compression so very close to what you describe. It was too radical for a manual transmission so the owner had to swap in a 727 with a high stall converter. I think you'll have the same problem if you use that large of a camshaft. You won't be able to drive the car on the street since you won't have enough torque right off idle to leave a stop light.

https://youtu.be/fGiFuOuBnvQ

Running a hyd roller isn't a problem, I use them all the time in BB Mopar engines. But if you are going to street drive it with a 5 speed overdrive transmission then you'll need to keep the cam size down into the 240 or maybe 250 range. I use a 239/245 hyd roller in my '65 Coronet and it is a tad too big for really comfortable street driving with a 5 speed manual transmission. My car would be more comfortable with lobes that were one size smaller. My engine has TF240 heads and makes a little over 600 hp.

I know a very gifted racer, engine builder, machinist and fabricator that has used solid roller lifters on hydraulic roller camshaft with .001 to .003 valve lash when hot on a lot of sports cars and Roundy rounder racer where the rules say that have to have a hydraulic lifter camshaft, it doesn't say you have to have hydraulic lifters
The one thing you need to know is to set the lash at room temps with very little or no lash due to the aluminum heads will get taller as they warm up opening up the valve lash
BTW, I used a very similar grind Com Cams solid roller cam in my old pump gas 400 block stroker 505 C.I. pump gas motor and that motor way exceeded my wildest expectations
Try installing it from 106 to 104 ATDC on the intake lobes
I had mine at 107 ILC (intake lobe centers) and never change the LSA on the intakes due to it making way more power that I had hope for, the car was traction limited also so the old adage don't mess with success made me leave it alone

I don't think it is possible to take full advantage of the TF270 heads with a Dominator carb in a street car that has a 5 speed OD transmission. I just don't think any engine builder can do that. A Dominator carb and a big cam will not work in a heavy B body car with a 5 speed manual transmission. You'll be dumping raw fuel out the tail pipes if you drive that combination on the freeway in overdrive. Any camshaft big enough to take full advantage of a TF270 heads and a Dominator carb will have too much overlap to play well with an OD transmission on the freeway.

You need to rethink your combination and/or your goals.

Thanks for getting back to me and sharing your knowledge. What started this new engine project is the engine that i currently got in my 70 Cuda 5 speed which is also a 400 low deck stroker with 4.15" stroke, this engine is just shy of 600hp with a cnc ported eddy heads, 4150 victor jr intake, Holley ultra XP 850 cfm carb, HR camshaft with 252//258@.050 ground on 110 degree LSA and .576" lift with 1:6 rocker arms. This engine is really street friendly and it idles fine at 900 RPM and leaving from 0 in a stop light is no problem with plenty of torque. With this engine in mind I really want and feel that I can trade off some of the street friendly manners in the search for 750hp with the new TF270 based build. What I get out from your comment is really that it's not worth messing around with the TF270's if I'm only going to put a cam in the 240-250 range in it, explain and let me know if I'm wrong. I already have an engine with a cam in the high 250 range and It has manners so I can use it as a daily driver to work if I want . What makes the TF270 engine combo that I previously described so useless? I totally see your point when it comes to the 1050 cfm dominator on the freeway but would a Holley efi system help it? Is it the combination of duration, lift and 108LSA that makes this combo so useless? How can my current engine feel so mild and two "sizes" up on the cam be totally useless? Obviously I'm missing out on something here and I would really appreciate it if you or someone else with greater experience than myself would let me know.

I'm totally with you on the Dominator carb criusing down the freeway in 65mph on fifth gear not gonna work. If going the carb. route would Indy 4150 flange 400-2 max wedge intake with a good Wilson port job and a Quick Fuel 880cfm vacuum secondary carb. be a restriction that will hurt the air flow so 700-750HP is no longer in reach?

Sounds like you want to build what i built. A 511with 11.25:1 compression street deal, but i used a 270@50/.625 on 110 solid flat tappet. My heads have 330cc ports and flow in the 350's@.700 lift. I went a best of 10.06@134 in a 3300# A body street/strip car(full interior). I use a 727 with a 5400 10" stall vert. I wouldnt want to drive it across the country, but you could drive it most anywhere. i kept it within 50 miles of my home. It did have a 1100 Dominator that was so reliable and the best street manners you could ask for. It did cruise down the freeway without issue other than getting hot because of a cooling issue i have at speed . i could let the car set 4hrs and just hit the start button without pumping it and it would fire up and idle. Dominators can live on the street, but you have to get them from a good source. Dom@Thumpercarbs can give you a Dominator that can do both street and track very well. Dom builds the best hands down IMO.
I now have a solid roller in this combo with similar specs, but on a 108. I use the oil thru lifters from BAM, but best tells me not to make a full pass because it will empty the pan. I did not bush the lifter bores in this block and i guess that is an issue with using stock blocks without bushed lifter bores using oil thru lifters. Did not know that at the time. I figure i can still run it thru the 1/8 just to get a time on it. I have also traded the Dominator for a T ram and 2 more of Doms carbs these being 750's. It still have the same great street manners. Dominators and T rams can live on the street just fine, dont let anyone kid you about that as i have videos to prove it. Oh, one more thing, i now have 12.5:1 compression and it still drives on the street just fine. I just run better fuel and it smells better.

I don't think you'll get anywhere close to 750 hp with an 880 cfm vacuum secondary carb. You need ~1100 cfm for a 512 at 7000 rpm, and you're going to need that kind of rpm to make your power goal.

I think that cam you picked looks good. The 264/268 cam always seemed to be a good grid as well for similar combos.

The engine you have now is about the limit of what you can do in terms of street power with a production block, hyd roller cam and production style heads. The issue is that you need to have the engine "on the cam" at 1800 rpm if you want to cruise down the freeway in overdrive. So if you're going to be "on the cam" at 1800 rpm then you can't have a camshaft with a powerband of 4000 to 7500 rpm.

The new engine that your are talking about won't work with a 5 speed OD transmission. The bigger ports, bigger intake, Dominator carb and bigger carb will not work at 1800 rpm in OD on the freeway. The air velocity will be low, torque will be low, and gas mileage will be horrible. That engine will work great starting at 4000 rpm and will make 700 hp at 7000 rpm, but it won't work pull a heavy B body down the freeway in overdrive at 1800 rpm.

If you want a 700 hp race engine then put a built 727 behind it with a high stall converter. If you pick the right converter you can drive it on the street and it will be a very fun ride. It won't be great for cruising on the freeway but that is just the way it is.

If you want 700 hp peak power and OD transmission then buy a Hellcat. That is what those engines are designed to do.

To big of cam for a stick car??????

Ran plenty of large cams with a standard transmission with no issues. By large cam i mean 800 lift plus, duration @50 was 300 on exhaust and made 986 on pump gas. Drove it on some drag and smaller drive deals 100-200 miles without an issue and was pleasantly surprised how nice it drove on highway at 55mph.

I would for sure ditch the hydraulic and put in a solid roller. With the spintron technology, and the knowledge it brought years in the industry, i think you would be surprised how nice it would drive and how little you have to set the lash. .02

Yes, I cruise down the road at 3000rpm and it does eat lots of fuel. I would say about 10mpg. I dont think that combo would be kind to you with overdrive. The trick to the street Dominator is the 2 circuit air bleed setup. I drove a 3 circuit on the street for a bit but it was a tuning nightmare. It was too lean and too rich in certain areas. Ran a 90 inter bleed to drive it, but was not ideal. A 2 circuit is what you want. It is a very fun car to drive to say the least.

Thanks again for explaining this in detail. I now understand what you're taking about when it comes to driving down the freeway not being "on the cam" to use your words. With my current engine with a 252 // 258 cam the engine is not happy if i drop it below 2000RPM driving in 5th gear, I also got an Chevy El Camino (I know) with a 454 and a TKO 600 5speed with 262 // 272 solid fat tapped cam and that engine is defiantly not happy under 2500RPM in 5th gear at the freeway. At the same time I feel that both of these engines are fine (and fun) to drive around my small hometown with no problems leaving from 0 at a stop light.(only got one stoplight) I think what people put in the term street car // daily driver and expect in terms of manners differs a lot and how tiring it is to drive a radical cammed engine on the street al comes down to how much traffic it is where you live and drive.

After reading what you say regarding cam size and not going larger than maximum the 250 range I really wonder mow much more power a TF270 with a 250 range cam would make over the same set up but with the TF240 heads?

Thanks a lot for sharing you knowledge. Sounds like i need to look at a modified Dominator to make it work for the street, do Thumpercabs have a up and running web page with contact information?

Dominic has a Facebook page, but not a web site: https://www.facebook.com/thumpercarbs.thumper

Agree about the solid roller and I've been running an Isky .680-.660 with 276-281 @ .050 solid roller on the street in my 470 Stroker mostly for 20+ years with zero issues except tons of torque. Check the lash periodically and you should be good IF it has fairly gentle lobes like mine.....

This is funny and bad unproven info right here...

If you are going to be driving on the street with an OD transmission then use the 240 heads and a 4150 carb. If you are going to be racing the car and you want the extra power then use the 270 heads and a Dominator. But the big cam, big carb and big head combo isn't going to be very happy in OD on the freeway. There really isn't any way around this. When you design an engine you match the heads, intake, cam and carb so they all work together. When they all work together at 7000 rpm you have a race engine. When they all work together at 2000 rpm you have a truck engine. You have to decide which you want.

Carbureted I agree. EFI can result in the best of both, IMO.

Sounds like I have to talk to you about carburetors when that time comes......how do you prefer communication? I've always learned that solid roller do not last long when they have to idle at lower RPM's. Do you run bushed lifter bores? what type of lifter brand and modell du you run? also could you please co more in detail on the term "gentle lobes"? What is the spec on your lobes?

Call anytime.....760-900-3895....

Nothing, but respect for your builds, but after our local track closed I took my 512 lowdeck bracket racer, lowered the compression from 13.5:1 to 10.5:1, dumped the Stealth heads and added TF270s to bring the power back up. Running a 1050 Dominator on a deep port matched Indy single plane. The cam card is attached here. 727 trans with GV OD. The converter is 5500 rpm and there is no lack of fun on the street. In fact I can't get the smile off my face after driving it

I’m currently building a 400/470 with TF270’s up top. My build is a heavy car bracket race application. My theory on making the most of these heads was to open the valve as far as possible with moderate to short duration in order to take advantage of the flow capabilities while still building as much torque as possible to get a big car moving.
I called Howards and went through my goals and components and they agreed with my theory and spec’d one of their catalog cams that runs only 259/263 duration at .050, but with 1.6 rockers opens the valve to .680.
I’m still waiting on it, but I’m looking forward to the results.

Best cam on my pump gas 470 was 264/268. Anything smaller than that lost peak power. Anything bigger lost torque and power.

I am running a 511/tf 270 combo with a 5 speed. But I am using a proform 1050/4150. I think you about ar the limit for taking advantage of the 270 heads with a hydraulic roller. I am running a 265/269 .660 on 108 solid roller.
I do have to be going 75 mph to use 5th gear. But it’s not a big deal. I have 4.10 and a 30” tire. So I don’t much need the overdrive. The car has great street manners for a 750hp engine. I put 800 miles on it this summer. The gas mileage is terrible. And it does buck a little trying to idle through a parking lot. But it’s completely maneagable. It is a blast to drive.

You want a cam that gives you the power you want with your 5 speed. Since it won't like low rpm it's simple. Don't run it in 5th gear unless you're really going to be cranking up the cruise speed to welll over the limit. I'd run a solid roller and a bushed block.
Doug

A 5500 stall converter changes the combination completely from what the OP was asking about. The OP has a five speed manual transmission with OD. When you switch to an auto with a high stall converter then the engine can be a lot more radical since the torque converter slips. Your engine wouldn't work very well on the street with a manual OD transmission.

Sent you a pm.

Another option is change 5th gear. I went from the .68 to .82 and like it much better.

This illustrates that what’s perfectly streetable for one person, may seem totally unacceptable to another.

The OP sounds like he has other cars and has a feel for what he wants. He’s the only one who can really assess what’s acceptable for him.
He should just build it the way he wants.

If it doesn’t meet his expectations...... well, that’s how you learn.

You hit the nail right square on the head. Well said!

"...... well, that’s how you learn. "



over the almost 60 years i have been playing with this brand, my failures have taught me quite well. now if i can just remember them so i don't repeat.

I would think the mildly ported TF270's would be pretty close in flow numbers (=/- 10 cfm in the .300-.700 lift range) to my Chapman stage 6's that Fast flow tested many years ago now. IIRC mine flow 280+ at .400, 335-ish at .500 and 360+ at .600

My 517 runs a Larry Smith ported '337 intake and a Bullet HR with 264/268 @.050 and around .600 lift with 1.6 rockers. The only difference is my motor's static is about 11.5:1 and I run the cam in early at 102 ICL with a 108 spread. It's a beast at all RPM and I run a fairly tight 4400 stall 9 1/2" converter with 3.54 gears in a 4000 lb w/d 70 charger. It revs like a comp eliminator motor. I think with a 10.5 motor I'd drop down to something like a 255/259 Ultradyne solid street roller Roller with the .4033 endurance lobes....which would match my present .200-up lift durations and still be mild enough for street driving. You can get a 1.7:1 hughes rocker to take the advertised lift from .605 to .680 ish, that would be the way I'd go for your combo.

That said if I were running an O/D for 70 mph with my motor for sum 70 mph cruising the cam is probably a little big unless you're cruising at maybe 2800. I can't imagine trying to hook up my motor with a stick shift unless I could get a really wide gear pattern, there's just too much torque and the motor is too responsive for street tires to deal with.

With the value of 2nd gen Chargers through the roof I only cruise the car and don't really race it for fear of buckling the quarter panel seams so I'm going to de-tune it a bit and probably either sell this motor or drop it into something like a 71 coronet that I can beat on properly.

I'm not an expert on BB lifter galley oiling with rollers .......but isn't there an issue when the hydraulic lifter base goes much beyond about .400-ish lift? isn't that why they bush the lifter bores? to keep from reducing oil pressure/volume to the mains? I believe a small block is similar. I would think a cam that yields .680 lift with a 1.6 rocker would be.425 off the base circle. Please somebody jump in and tell me where the lift point is where the galley is exposed

This build is remarkably close to my 526" and I would mirror that it is incredibly responsive despite the bigger ports! I street drive it a lot and have no bottom end sogginess at all and freeway mileage isn't horrible (12-14 mpg). I have a Gear Vendor OD, 29" tires, and 4.30's out back and have no issues with convertor heat when using it on the freeway (I don't use it in the city at all). I also run a fairly tight 4400 stall 10" Ultimate convertor

Streetwize, I have similar flow numbers (mine flow 298@ .400, 340@ .500 370@ .600 and 380@700) and a similar Bullet cam as well except it is a solid roller(.715 w/1.6 110 spread installed at 105 262/269@.050) but I run an Indy manifold (also ported by Larry when he did the heads). If you could PM me if you have any kind of times you have been able to run with this combo (even from another car), I would appreciate it. I am running a 3900lb W/D '67 Coronet but I haven't had the car to the track yet with this combo (and I don't want to hijack the thread).

I never took this motor down the track mainly because I built a dedicated drag toy once the value of second gen Chargers started ramping way up. I built it with the intention of building a 69 Valiant post car but the Rocky came along and I went in another "small block" direction.

But the recipie is based on a couple other BB RB and B stroker motors i did...and I got some good advice from Steve Dulcich because he used the same heads on his 3rd place Engine Masters 470 that made i think 754 hp.

If your motor doesn't go well into the 10's it's definitely not the motor, I'm not a huge fan of the indy intake for a street driven car, even at 526" because it seems to have more of a "light switch" torque band.

I really like the 337 because it sits lower and the runners have excellent taper.

The build is well documented somewhere in Moparts, I conservatively estimate it makes ~720 with a wall to wall torque curve.

but going back to Kudarick's original question, I think your combo is pretty close to mine, I run a bullet HR 264/268 @050 0n 108 in at 102 and it revs to 6800 easily with Hughes 1.6 rockers. You can find videos of the motor on Youtube under Wizerulz. The OD might be a challenge though my motor gets happy around 2800 but it pulls really nice with 3.54 gears.

I'm actually thinking about going solid roller with a set of the BAM offset cup lifters to straighten out the pushrods a bit and something a bit smaller like the Ultradyne 259/263 @.050 with the .4033 endurance ramps and about .630 net lift, this would be a tad milder down low and even torquier at part throttle but should still rev just as high as my HR and with a lot less valvetrain mass. The better the heads are you don't really need to go as big on the cam IMHO for a mostly street driven car, the cam is basically putting the optimum powerband lower in the curve which is less stress on the block, how hard are you really gonna beat on it? Are you really gonna miss that extra 30HP at the very top of the range vs having the freight train torque and taking WOT when cruising 65mph in OD? The best cam is the one that best suits your driving needs, IMO many if not most stroker people overshoot this by 10-15 degrees for how they really drive their cars.

Quick update, I just got a quote from Mike Jones for my 517 thinking about getting a little more lift (.595/583 with 1.6's and taking a little duration out of the 264/268 @.050 on 108 HR Bullet cam that's in it now

He's recommending a 252/260 @.050 on 110 with .624/624 lift which Ironically is really close to what I had (252/258) in my old 508/Stage V iron head motor.

I was curious to know what the custom grind AndyF ran that worked better than the off the shelf grind in the 511's.

The Cam I have is a beast, I love it it's just with the Charger being more of a collector car now as compared to the old school days, I think a want a little crisper part throttle / roll-on torque and can live without the maybe 30 i might be giving up above 5500 or so. The motor was supposed to go in lighter A body but it really doesn't feel over-cammed.

I still may go to an endurance Solid roller similar to what's in my 440 W2 small block, I'd really like to get the offset cup BAM lifters to straighten out the pushrods and also allow me to run a longer pushrod as well. The BAM lifters work really well I have both the offset and non offset type in 2 of my small blocks.

With the Bullet HR with 264/268 @.050 what brand (part number) HR lifters are you running? Do you feel that the weight of the HR lifters is a restriction in any way? Can you please lay out your oiling system? any special mods?

I spent a lot of time setting up the valvetrain and I' can say the weight of the lifters doesn't seem to have any adverse effects on the motors ability to rev, it hits like a comp eliminator motor. My lifters are the Cranes that became very desirable and hard to get once Crane filed for Bankruptcy back in the early 2000's.

I don't think the Bullet cam I run would be ideal for your lower compression and overdrive, I do believe the 102 ICL (+6 advance) I run is one of the keys to this combo working so well.

One of Andys engines ran the Comp HXL lobe intake profile and the HXX exhaust.
I though the size was in the 260's?
My 499(500) stroker uses the HXL lobes intake and exhaust, but I think that might be too agressive on the exhaust side?
I don't know exactly the difference is on the HXX exhaust lobes (don't have one to measure), but I think my combo would be better with a bit slower opening profile, and maybe just running a 1.5:1 rocker on the exhaust side.