I've been running a 451 motor in my Super Gas car for years now. Wanting to build something a little faster, probably looking at a 511 inch low-deck engine. What camshaft would be best for making good HP from 4000 to 7000 RPM? Probably looking at 12 or 12.5 compression with flat top pistons. Also, I have Edelbrock Victor heads, unported. Thanks--
How much power do you want to make and will the unported Victor heads get you there? Are you racing at high elevation? If so that will change things a bit. You might want more compression but that will depend on what gas you are willing to buy and use.
I'd like to get to 160 to 165 trap speeds, but may be limited to how much HP a stock block will withstand? With these Victor heads, compression approaching 15 to 1, my 447 inch motor ran 154 MPH at sea level tracks. We race primarily in Denver, but also travel to Division 5 and 7 events, and encounter DAs ranging from 600 to 9500. We make adjustments for varying DAs by changing timing, jets, squirters, and moving ballast. Calculators show almost 800 HP to achieve the speeds we want.
I don't think you're going to reach 800 hp with unported Victor heads. Maybe ported Victor heads could get you there but I think you would need more than 12:1 compression. 800 hp will eat up the main webs in a factory block so you'll want to stockpile some cores or else go afternarket.
Talk to Dwayne at Porter Racing Heads and see what he has to say. He is pretty good a picking the cam and heads needed for a specific power goal.
IMO get the heads ported and if in the budget look into getting an aluminum block, to keep the weight down. Your car is lite enough it won't taking earth rotating power to get here. I don't believe there is a prototypical cam for a S/G car, it is all about HP. Especially with a lighter car. If it were a heavier car I would look to make as much HP as possible but also maximize the torque to help come off the stop. IMO bigger is usually always better and simpler way to make more power. Hads are the key t making power, the camshaft should compliment the cylinder head and take advantage of its port runner CC and intake valve diameter.
A few aluminum block options and for the head you are using I would not hesitate to go with a BMP block, it is also the least expensive of the group. I am working on my new S/ST ride right now and we are concentrating on making as much reliable maintenance free HP as we can. As you know it was more about the converter choice, and stop set up than the cam choice in .90 racing.
Its become more and more of a MPH game for sure. But also seen alot of guys with slower cars having alot of success as well. I am always watching the numbers and while I see alot of faster cars these days that are really slow in 60 and have "slow" backhalfs So it can be misleading a bit IMO. In S/ST anyway alot of those "fast" 150mph cars are in the 2.0-2.2 60'and only gain 32-35 in the back half. I would think that would make them easier to judge for the slower cars as they are not as far back as I would expect for a faster car. I know my junk we could run as fast as 49 in the back half of the track depending on how we had the car set up.
My last S/ST car had no cubes and not alot of torque. It worked well because of the converter, stop set up and the power it made. HP makes up for alot in a t-stop car. The last few years I have helped a couple of guys with slower cars optimize there set ups to have better back half MPH and they have found some success that way, while still having decent 60's(1.70's).
Its become more and more of a MPH game for sure. But also seen alot of guys with slower cars having alot of success as well. I am always watching the numbers and while I see alot of faster cars these days that are really slow in 60 and have "slow" backhalfs So it can be misleading a bit IMO. In S/ST anyway alot of those "fast" 150mph cars are in the 2.0-2.2 60'and only gain 32-35 in the back half. I would think that would make them easier to judge for the slower cars as they are not as far back as I would expect for a faster car. I know my junk we could run as fast as 49 in the back half of the track depending on how we had the car set up.
My last S/ST car had no cubes and not alot of torque. It worked well because of the converter, stop set up and the power it made. HP makes up for alot in a t-stop car. The last few years I have helped a couple of guys with slower cars optimize there set ups to have better back half MPH and they have found some success that way, while still having decent 60's(1.70's).
Yep. If you're on the stop past 60. then you need to look at the 330. I tried to maintain a nice even 2:1 stop ratio to make it easy to figure on the go.
142MPH HP, I couldn't drop it into high on the stop. Killed the little motor.
I enjoyed S/ST a TON, why I am working on a new car to go back. Hopefully it can run as well as the last one, its going to be about 100lbs heavier and much less Aero but will have some more HP(hoping for 60 more or so) so we shall see. But I also want to be able to make a run and then drive to lunch with the same car Bring some street back to S/ST.
I had a blast even against the slow guys. Here is a winning run against a car that was 39MPH slower, 122 vs 161. Always a difficult race and this was just luck, almost screwed it up killed 14mph and took .00003 at the stripe in a dead heat...Fun times.
Sorry for hijacking your cam thread. But love to discuss .90 stuff
Have to get moving too early to run SST for me. They're usually first out. Plus not many opportunities to run the big races.
First or second out depending on division for sure. But since stockers always seem to like to fire up at 6am and I stay at the track I am up anyway. The only thing I dont like about being out first is it can be quite cold at times and when you go 10.90 at 160 or more it can get to be sketchy at times. SO just hang back and see how it goes.
Would love to try this class , not sure what all is involved , but that video is way cool . Looks like Rick Stewart was starter ? Thanks for posting this . Gary
Would love to try this class , not sure what all is involved , but that video is way cool . Looks like Rick Stewart was starter ? Thanks for posting this . Gary
You just need a car that can run 10.90 and be able to hit a .500 tree. After that other than having to be 2800lbs there are not alot of rules but some extras just because it is an NHRA class, like a diaper no matter the speed or cars et capability.
Some guys use nothing more than weight or a manual throttle stop to run the 10.90 others like me use air or electric assisted throttle stops, other still use a top end stop. You would likely need a dely box and air or electric shifter as well. Cars have won races and championships all three ways. I think it is a fun class and the .500 tree allows most anyone to be able to hit the tree.
Great video Al. I have a couple of in-car videos, kind of the opposite of yours, just see the other car flash by in the lights. The file size on mine is too large to post, not sure how you got yours to work?
Will be good to see you out there again, which event will be your first? I think there is no category in NHRA sportsman racing that is more challenging than the .90 classes. Guess that's why we keep coming back each season.
It will be sometime next year. I am not sure when. I hate to show up with an untested car but living in Vegas I likely will have little choice. We dont run 1/4 mile bracket racing here anymore and there is nothing else very close. So I will likely show up and it will be trial by fire for me. I am hoping to make the Vegas Spring Divisonal to start.
Engine is finally just about done, down to getting balancer deal squared away and pushrods ordered. Truck itself needs new firewall put in wishbone finished up, tunnel finished and then finish the rest of the wiring and powder coating the remaining parts. Also need to make a decision on what stop, looking like I will go with the Number1/Stinnet stop as I plan to go with a much larger carb than normally used on a T stop car.
A gratuitous picture of where it should be when done. This was as a street version and we have changed a TON of stuff since then and dumped more money than I care to remeber. Lots of tubes, new rear end housing, repowerder coat the frame, new wiring, blah blah blah....
Sneak peak of new rear ride height, it is about 3" lower now
Nice light Hard up on the hill, only place I could not run 150 in street. Is it even on the stop there? if so you are at a really high rpm looked like it sat at 6K for a blip or two.
Al as you know I was not one of the faster SG racers, so about 3 years ago I decided to run slow at the finish, but not using a top end stop. So no stop timer at the line, just adjusting the stop opening to run the number. At 9.90 tracks we run around 135 MPH and in Denver 127. There are some racers out there that have had pretty good success with slow finish line speeds, but hard to do consistently. And if you're set up on the quick side, nearly impossible to judge if/when to brake when a guy is coming from behind you going 40 MPH faster. I also have to go thru some mathematical gyrations to make any sense of prediction software. Therefore, thinking of going more "conventional" next year.
Sounds like a very solid plan to me that more and more folks are using. The few national events I ran in S/C I was stopping up top at 119-121. Figured why be the guy at 165-7 and being a "sitting duck" for the faster cars. IMO a 5-15 MPH difference at the top end is the exact WRONG place to be. Makes judging the stripe for the faster guys MUCH easier. I know it did for me.
i edited your post to imbed your video as well....
Just for some perspective since that last video i posted was closing on a 120mph car here is one against a 150mph car with me chasing him.
Another great video Al, and thanks for fixing mine up. So were you successful when running "slow" in Super Comp? Was it too much of a change from what you were used to? Here are some things that I don't have to worry about when running my car the way I currently have it set up: 1) Spinning the tires when coming off the stop 2) Inconsistent convertor flash when coming off the stop 3) Jumping on the brakes hard at 160+ MPH. 4) RPM creep on the stop. Also, pretty easy on my motor when only running up to 6K RPM or so. And another question: for guys using down track throttle stop--are they closing it down completely at the top end? Wouldn't that be hard on rods, wrist pins, pistons, etc?
mine was on the stop at the stripe. We tried turning it back on way up top and that was no bueno with track conditions at a national event past the 1000'. After trying top crash a couple times I had to go back to just being on the stop and hoping I got it right. I did try running S/C the traditional way and felt like a duck at 165ish. No I did not have alot of success but I also never really worked on it unless we ran S/C at a national event at the event otherwise car was always on a the S/ST number even bracket racing. AS you know Data is king with this stuff and I never just worked on it. I plan to do the same with the truck, S/C at nationals where S/St is not run, like Vegas. My car laid very flat on the stop even at 5.5 seconds in great air. At most it would creep 50ish rpm. No issues with converter coming off as it was WAY tight for the combo and that seemed to work for me. Had no issues with traction coming off with a traditional set up. I run an air stop with an adjustable opening rate and it took 1.1 seconds to fully open, that kept it happy other than trying it up top.
An aluminum block, 540 cubes, ported 440-1 heads or similar will get you 800 hp with an easy on parts cam with maybe . 750 lift, 280/290/110 duration. I would go bushed lifters and rockers. Needle bearings are trouble. I liked the Isky RR 735 cam, .760 lift with 1.55 rockers. With methanol injection, at about 13.5 compression I dynoed 847 hp and went 8.77 at 153 mph at 3000 lbs. That was a megablock 528. I would guess a 528 or 540 using a 4.500 bore will be easier on bearings and crank. Bigger would be nice, but might not have the life between rebuilds that a well used race car needs.
Well at S/ST weight that 153 might net you mid 140's or so depending on how you have the stop set up. Definitely takes power in these classes to put up big MPH no doubt. We have a very good friend who we have helped with his B1 deal and S/ST set up who has been 8.70's all out and once in a blue moon if the air is great he can tickle 150 at 3000lbs. Roger has the advantage of being able to weight alot less. Not sure exactly what he weighs but the S/G minimum is 2200lbs so an honest 800HP would net home some decent MPH, but these days there are cars going over 180 with regularity in SG. If it were me I would be looking to get as close to that minimum as possible so no question an aluminum block would be used.
I may be re-thinking my situation. Last time I weighed I was 2265 with me and about 70 lbs of ballast. Looks like 800 HP would get me in the 160-165 range at 9.90 tracks. HOWEVER, besides the bigger motor, I would probably be looking at a taller rear gear, bigger tires, new throttle stop with adjustable opening speed, probably new convertor, and also some items I'm not thinking of. James Kunkel, who was 2020 Super Comp champ in Div. 5 (door car that stops down to 100 MPH at the stripe) has recommended that I try stopping mine on the top end, I could run pretty much the same stuff I've got now. It would not only save me a ton of money, but also all the work that would be required in the off-season to be ready for testing before the 2023 season. Looks like WHP in PHX will be holding their last NHRA event next March, I am hoping to attend.
I have always said one way or the other is a better option, be the fast guy or the slow guy. At least you are running the same race every pass rather than switching from chasing to being chased. Just my humble opinion though. I am hoping to be ready for Wildhorse myself. I will be a duck but since I live in a place with no tracks, and one that is rarely used and only for 1/8 mile brackets anymore I will have zero info. Trial by fire it is.
Bring some street back to S/ST. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/QNnJrKxZ/B043-DE8-A-29-B7-402-F-AFBA-F50-B4-CFECBDF.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/jjqMWfn1/D7-B0-AB67-4-DE1-49-EF-9-FC5-CB1-CC34-EE1-CE.jpg)