Need help with harmonic balancer

I installed my harmonic balancer I got from Summit and am having a few problems. First, I thought I had it installed properly so I put on the crank pulley. When I went to install the water pump pulley today it wasn't even close to lining up with the crank pulley. So now I'm thinking maybe the balancer isn't on far enough. To install it, I heated it up per the instructions, slid it on as far as it would go and drove it the rest of the way (or at least what I thought was the rest of the way) with a 4x4 and hammer until it didn't go on any further. I then tightened the bolt with my torque wrench to 90 psi per the specs and thought all was good. However, it is not. Secondly, the timing marks on the balancer read the opposite direction from the marks on the timing tab on the motor as shown in the pictures. Why would this be? The motor is a 72 400 with the stock timing cover/timing tab.

more.

First off, never beat a damper on. You could have damaged the thrust bearing, who knows you may have. That damper looks like it’s made wrong. Get an American made damper. Do some research for your application.

"Do some research for your application"

I did when I bought it.

With the bolt removed, how much of the crank snout is visible in the balancer's bore? IOW, how deep in the bore is the end of the crank snout?

That looks like a street hemi dampener, not for a wedge motor

3/8"

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-c4279

I don't know why the pulley doesn't line up. It could be that the damper is made wrong or it could be that the damper isn't fitted properly for your engine. Aftermarket dampers often need to be honed to fit. Mopar dampers require a special press fit to work properly. You need to measure the OD of the crank and the ID of the damper and look up on the chart to see if you have the proper press fit. If it is too tight you have a shop hone it out. If it is too loose you return it or throw it away.

The upside down numbers are because someone stupid made that damper. Could be the mfg fault or it could be Summit's fault. Evidently someone in the loop didn't know the difference between a Chevy damper and a Mopar damper. There isn't much you can do about that other than complain to Summit.

If you look close at the picture on the Summit website you'll see that the numbers are upside down in their picture. So if you complain about the numbers they'll probably tell you to pound sand since you got what you ordered. Sorry about that, I've learned that one the hard way myself. I used to assume that everyone would sell me good parts but now after 40 years of working on stuff I've flipped my opinion. Now I assume everyone is too stupid to make good parts and that I have to double check everything before I buy it or install it.

I would expect to see less.

Measure the distance from the shoulder on the crank snout where the balancer bottoms out to the end of the snout. Compare that to the depth of the bore in the balancer to be sure it's actually bottoming out on the shoulder.

I checked the water pump pulley belt grooves and they are out of align with the grooves on the crank pulley by the same 3'8" as mentioned previously so I believe the balancer is not on all the way. I will have to get a puller to take it back off to measure the snout and the bore. Assuming the problem is that the balancer is not on all the way and I can get it all the way on using a balancer installation tool, being the timing marks on the balancer are the wrong way could I use timing tape instead? The reason I ask is I bought this balancer about 5 years ago so I know I can't return it but I would like to use it so I'm not out the price I paid for it.

Hope you have a GOOD puller b/c you'll likely break a cheap one trying to get it off. If you have to heat the balancer to get it on, then it's too tight and needs to be honed.
If it's that tight, then it'll gall up bad when you take it off.

Yep almost all the aftermarket balancers I see need to be honed for proper fit, pulled off plenty that when they were installed rolled metal off, and they did not go on all the way.

When you take off the crank bolt you will see how far in the snout is and just some indecation if it is out too far.when you pull the balancer you will need to use a medium hammer to shock the balancer and it will likely come lose.You can use a timing tape but while you have it off you can get it marked for timing by someone.

JUST installed the same one on my 1975 400 stocker, looks like same distance on, had to draw the last 1/2 inch with impact wrench. I used just 1 pulley for mini alternator so no help there, my timing marks look the same set at 35* did not see a problem

I pulled the balancer back off today (came off fairly easily) and got the measurements you mentioned John. The depth of the crank to where it bottoms out is 1 5/8" and the depth of the bore in the balancer is 1 25/32".

I use a good brand (,CAT. Permatex, up:) of anticize on all the balancer I install now

this right here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I’d be a little surprised if there was no mention of honing the damper for fit, and the use of anti-seize lube in the instructions.

But only a little.



I assume none of it fits.

Your third picture shows way too much chain case cover (front crank) seal bore.

Damper is not on far enough.

As for the timing marks - besides the numbers being upside down, what is the issue.

So you should see 5/32" depth when balance on fully. Not 3/8 or 12/32" that you see now. So if the balance goes on an additional 7/32 does that line up the pulley? If not you might have to use a different pulley, either crank or water pump. Of course that may change every thing like alternator and power steering.
That is a wide damper with marginal inset. So it will push crank pulley farther out towards radiator.

This would really be concerning me too.

Here's an update on my balancer problem. I got a balancer installation tool from Autozone. I heated the balancer back up again in the oven, oiled the crank snout, seal and balancer inner bore and slid the balancer on the crank. Attached the tool and pushed the balancer on as far as it would go. It went on 3/32" further than the first time. There is still about 9/32" of the balancer bore showing and based on my calculations it should be 5/32" if the balancer was seated all the way on the crank. So it would seem the balancer should still go on another 1/8". The pulleys are still no where close to lining up and even if the balancer was on the additional 1/8" the pulleys still wouldn't line up. They are a matched pair taken off of a 440 and the water pump and housing are MP aluminum parts. The forged crankshaft is from 440 Source. I also wanted to mention I have a stock 440 balancer that I compared to the Summit piece. The bore is the same length and when you stand them both on their snouts on a table everything is the same except the body of the Summit balancer is wider but it does not affect the crank pulley at all. The face of the balancer where the pulley mounts is the same height off the table on both. I've about had it trying to resolve this. I'm thinking of selling the motor as-is and just buying a running 340 to put in the car.

Why not use the stock 440 balancer that you already have?

I'd measure the snout of that 440 source crank versus a stock crank.

I had to draw in the last 1/8 with the bolt and impact gun, you will know when its seated with impact gun

This engine build goes back 5 years (which happens to be when I bought the balancer). I have no engine building experience so a distant family member (through in-laws) offered to build it for me. He got as far as getting the rotating assembly and camshaft installed and then he suddenly passed away. The engine has been on the engine stand in my garage ever since so I am now trying to finish it up myself. I got the heads, rocker arm assemblies, distributor and water pump installed. All I have left at this point is installing the balancer, pullies and intake and I can then put the engine in the car. To answer your question about the 440 balancer, the guy who was building the motor suggested I get a new balancer since everything else was new (with the exception of the block) which is why I didn't use the 440 one.

I was told not to do this as it could damage the threads so I assumed it wasn't safe.

remove the bolt and coat it with a good anticize and reinstalled it so you can seat the balancer all the way: wrench: :two cents :
The stock hole size and thread count is 3/4 inch, .750, with 16 threads per inch, if you can break it you have done something I've never heard of anyone doing that with oil or Anti seize or even dry threads of that size and count

I honed mine ever so slightly by a machinist

I honed a few dampers before with zero issues It doesn't have to be THAT tight of a grip on the crank.

Gus

If it doesn't have a tightness to the crankshaft snout it won't absorb the vibrations it needs to do it jobs, way better to be tight than loose (just like your G.F. )

See if the 440 balancer will fit and work. Try it to see if the pulley alignment is correct. If it works then no reason you can't use it. Nothing else, it will show you what a proper fit looks and feels like.

The balancer needs to be honed a bit because it's undersized , I've never had to heat a balancer to get it on.

if it were mine, i would remove the balancer and look close at the crank snout to see if any galling occurred.
then look at the balancer bore for the same.
lastly, i would look at the key way to see if something was going on there.

I can’t imagine that no one has mentioned that the balancer is assembled backwards. look at the picture on the box that you posted in your first reply. the bolts are toward the back side on the box. the fact that the timing numbers are backwards should be a pretty strong clue…

i had to look at the pictures again, but it sure seems you are on to something !
thanks for pointing that out !
can this balancer be taken apart and assembled the correct way by the basic person, or does it need to be sent back to the manufacturer to have it corrected ?
if i had it in my hands, i would try to take it apart and assemble it correctly. however, i have way more shop equipment than the average person, and i'm not afraid to ruin anything.
that's how one learns things. i have learned more things NOT to do than i have learned correct methods of doing things.

The picture on the box is not what it looks like. Look at the pic I posted of it on my engine. Also here. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-c4279

If it was me, I’d scrap it. Too many issues. First you beat it on, you may have damaged the thrust earring, second, misaligned pulley’s, third, numbers on the wrong side, Hope you straighten things out.