563ci build specs, what will it make?

I picked up my new engine build from the machinist today. Time to get busy, and bolt everything together.

Here are the specs of the build:

INDY RB Aluminum block
Molnar 4.375 crank
Molnar 7.100 rods
Diamond pistons 4.524 bore
INDY 440-1 345CNC heads, finished by Dwayne Porter. Flow numbers attached.
Compression ratio is 13.5:1
T&D 1.6 rockers
INDY 4403X intake manifold
Erson roller cam specs:
Lift Intake= .768 Exhaust= .760
Duration@ .050 =288/302
LSA= 111

Jesel belt drive
MSD Crank trigger
Moroso 4 vane vacuum pump
Thumper 1150cfm 4500 carb

Headers are 2.125-2.250 with 4” collectors.

I’m hoping to have everything together, and dyno test it in a few weeks. Anyone want to take a guess at what it will make for HP/TRQ?

Jeff

Something close to 900 hp at 7000 rpm. If the dyno shop has a bigger carb try it if you get the time. That engine would most likely make more power on the dyno with a 1250 carb, but it might go down the track faster with a slightly smaller one.

No help Jeff but I hope to see you at the track with it!

As of right now, the only race I’m planning on attending this year, is Brainerd for 4th of July. Money is extremely tight right now, and with Diesel prices climbing every day, I won’t be making any long hauls.

Cool! Can you remember what my 60' was when you drove my junker? Been meaning to ask that...

I like that build.
What length are the headers? A shorter length may make peak hp a couple hundred higher. You have the cam duration to do it.
Since Andy was so close to my initial thought, I'm going with 29-30" long headers and 910 hp at 7200 rpm.
I will guess the torque peak at 5650 rpm. (approximately ...)

Primary tubes are 39” long. They step up from 2.125-2.250 after 6 “ from the header flange. I basically copied my Hooker 5209 headers, when I built them, only these actually fit the car without a hammer.

1.42 if I remember correctly.

The HP numbers could vary significantly between different dynos.

I’d expect to see 875-900 here.

A 572 with the same heads, 14:1, 282@.050 cam, 440-2 with 4500 adapter and a good working 1150, but no vacuum pump made 778tq.

That’s 1.36 lb/ft per ci.
At 563ci you’d be around 765tq.

I’d be very happy if it made those numbers. Could possibly push the Road Runner into the 8’s on a good day, with a tail wind.

I’m thinking the 288/302-111 might cost a little bit of peak tq output........ and I don’t know if the vac pump will be enough to equal that out or not.

I guess we’ll find out.

Another 14:1 572 made 766tq. That one had bigger heads, the 3X intake, a little more cam, and a fairly ineffective vac pump(4”).
Even though the peak tq was less, it did end up making 40hp more.

If the cam is installed straight up at 111 ILC I would guess between 875 HP maybe up to 950 HP around 7600 RPM depending on the actual weather that day and fuel used, torque around 790 Ft lbs. around 5200 RPM
My guesses have no scientific input, pure speculation on my part

I guess 891 @ 7300. Whatever it makes it's great to see it coming back together!

I am going to be a little more generous and go 920 hp 790 tq range, comparing your specs and the 540 Todd just finished for me, I don’t have the numbers on my -1’s but I bet they wouldn’t flow quite that good and you have a little more lift, and of course the dyno operator.

Is that 4spd going to go bye-bye?

Dave, the Jerico is gone, and a Liberty Equalizer is in its place.

830-850 on an honest calibrated dyno.

Slowly going together. This is the first time I've set up a Jesel belt drive, so I'm taking my time. Should get the cam degreed in, in the next couple days, if I can find the time.

What’ll it make?? A trek to that crispy cool fall air at Interstate Dragway to grab a trophy time slip in that low DA

Anyone can get a trophy time slip at Interstate in the fall... Enough leaves blowing around to get a 380mph time slip... It's happened many times.

I'd have to guess it'd make a metric $#!+ - of horsepower with a sizeable pantload of torque.

Sure looks good. Are you going to break some hearts and grind off the logo on the belt drive?

No. It gets covered enough by the engine plate, and water pump. I'll break hearts by painting an aluminum block...

True to form, then.

I love the overall look with the painted parts, and all the extra work you put in. Really sets it apart.

What headers will be used on the dyno?
Those are pretty long, IMO. I do like the short length of 2.125 tubes. I made mine with 8” of 2.125” and 21” of 2.250” for a total 29” length.

We will make the first pulls with Hooker 5209 headers, then switch over to the headers I built. I basically copied the 5209 headers when I built them.

Very nice looking headers.
I wasn't sure if the Hooker car headers would fit around the dyno you will use.
I look forward to the performance comparison.

I'd put the cam in earlier unless you're tire limited. I'd guess about 870-880 hp

I let my machinist pick out the cam. He wants the cam set 107-108, which is where it’s at now.

I am guessing stick cars like a little earlier c/l?. Plenty of duration.

No clue. I wish I understood camshafts more. About a year ago, he built a 572 Mopar with 572-13 heads, and it made 1000hp. I didn't see any reason for him to not pick out the cam.

Some things in our combos are close. I'm assuming your actual bore is 4.530". Yours has .250" less stroke, 1.5 points less compression, less lift (mine has 1.7 rocker). But it has stepped headers with a larger collector, arguably better intake, a touch more duration. My cam was in at 108 for years. Just moved it back to 111. So far the results are positive. My bet is yours will be over 900hp at higher rpm than mine. I think you'll be pleased with the outcome.
Doug

Doug, bore is 4.524. Previous owner of the block just had it cleaned up enough, and ordered custom pistons for it. When I got the block, it had broke a rod bolt on the 202 pass, since being refreshed. It was in a dragster, that only ran 1/8 mile. The block came with 6 good pistons, so I only had to order two from Diamond. I tried to keep this on somewhat of a budget, so I used what I had, and worked around it.

That explains it. I did the last bore at 4.505" wanted to go to 4.510" this time but there was limited ring selection.
Doug

Well if it's 111 and in at 107 it's plus 4 where I thought it was put in straight-up (@ 111 ATDC) which for a non efi car seems late.

Checking the cam installed straight up, it came to 102. I had all I could do to get it to 109, but after talking with the machinist, he wanted it around 107-108. It's at 108 right now.

My guess is 865hp

My goal is 850hp. Anything over is a bonus. Anything less, is what it is.

I'm no dyno guy, but I'll say I think you're gonna be happy w/ it!

OK I'm guessing it might be an Ultradyne or Bullet because they seem to cut a lot of their cams for 102 ICL, at least on their Asymmetrical (fast opening/slow closing) lobes.

I always referred to "straight-up' as when the installed CL is the same as the lobe spread, (i.e., 111)

That thing should rip the welds out of the frame with those heads and cubes, what stall and gear are you running?

I've lowered my expectations enough to just live with what ever happens.

You always do quality stuff Jeff. I think you will be surprised at what it makes! Heck!! I am happy with my 550 hp 64 that you drove!

I don’t know squat, about that distributor location. My little motor would make a good starter for it. 😁

Wize, He's running the infinitely variable stall setup.

Aka "THE MAN PEDAL"

Correct. The car has a Liberty Equalizer 4 speed. Rear gear will be a 4.30 in the Dana 60, and the Liberty has a 2.92 first gear.

The cam is from Erson. My machinist has had good luck getting cams from them, vs. other cam grinders. This one took only a couple weeks to get.

Daddy LIKES!!!

I've never been one to do things the easy way... Besides, it gives my buddies lots of ammo for giving me sh!t...

I have a feeling that you'll be exchanging those 4.30 gears for some 3.70 gears after a few passes.......

The car has 14x32 tires. Calculations have it going through the traps at 150 mph with 4.30 gears, and 7000 rpm. Liberty wanted a 4.30 gear in the car as well.

With a 2.94 First gear either you'll be in 2nd gear by the 60' cone...or you'll be IN ORBIT!! lol

He'll be grabbing 2nd with the wheels in the air!

The 1-2 shift is usually around the 65'-70' mark, on a stick car. My Jerico had a 3.09 first gear. After years of running the car, you get used to the flow of things. It's what makes a stick car fun.

Oh I know I raced sticks for years, back in high school my buddies would set up race bets with their 4 speed cars and then throw me the keys to drive for them !

This is an auto but an 8" spragless 5300 stall can be fun too

What's it weigh for starters and I appreciate you letting me build ya a bad azz billet 1150ish carb to help you meet your goals. As Andy mentioned it MAY make more "magazine hp" but it won't go up the track faster and I've been there many times in the last few years plus my 1050's support over 950 as dynoed and in a light 2600ish pound door car have gone 5,20's in the 1/8. I'm not a very good dyno guesser but 900 seems obtainable and we will all find out soon as your parts will be here today to get started so you can meet your deadline........I'm excited for you and proud to be on board Jeff.....Peace!

Dom,the new combo should weigh 3050lbs, with me in the car, race ready. It was 3148lbs with the old iron/filled 400 block. The liberty, and new stainless headers add some weight, but the aluminum block should still be over a 100lbs less.

If you can’t make it down the track, make it pretty to look at! 😉

Ah, my number one sh!t giver, never disappoints me... LOL.

I'd kill for 3050.
Doug

You?

Heck I'd kill for 3300

Sounds like you have a good combo getting ready to make some noise. Im sure it will keep you ahead for that steak dinner race for awhile

Jeff's new secret weapon!

Yeah someone has been slacking, but that’s Standard Operating Procedure, for him, and keeps saying he has PLENTY of time. LOL.

We run the Indy CM3 cam. .768/.720" 284/300 on a 580 motor. It absolutely ran the best on a 108 centre line (intake). Motor makes over 900 in good air.

Jeff,
Just stick to your work and run a good number.
No need to answer the jive talkers....

I usually have it coming. LOL.

No way? lol

LOL!!!

Have been making slow progress with the engine. After mocking up a cylinder head to check for pushrod length, I noticed that the pushrods were going to hit the block. INDY casts one block for Wedge, and HEMI's. If the block is designated for a Wedge head, the boss for the HEMI head bolt is machined off. While this is a used block, the previous owner had SR heads, with 1.5 rockers. 440-1 heads with offset intake rockers, and 1.6 rockers changed the pushrod location. I taped everything off, and took my die grinder to the areas that need to be clearanced. Nothing too major, just takes time. A buddy of mine turned down the mandrel for my vacuum pump. Didn't want any more hanging out than was necessary.

Over the last weekend, I was able to get the rear end setup. A friend had a set of 4.30 Pro Gears with a few passes on them. I also think I have my RacePak driveshaft senor issue figured out. The graph has always been messed up after a pass, and never "clean". Doing some reading and it was mentioned that the bracket holding the sensor needs to be nonferrous. My was made of steel. Guessing the sensor was grounding out? That is now fixed, hopefully.

Dyno session is scheduled for tomorrow morning. Engine is ready. Not sure my nerves are. LOL. I did get my 1150 Thumper carb from Dom, since the last time I posted on this thread. Looks awesome! I don't really have too many things to test. Will start out with Hooker 5209 headers, and my old 1050 for break in, then switch to Dom's carb, and bigger headers that fit my car. I did make the decision to run Sunoco Supreme 112 gas, instead of the Renegade 110.

Jeff, i predict 910 hp at 7100 rpm. Dynoing at R&R? Good luck with it!

Not R&R. The dyno is in Eden Valley. Craig's Machine & Dyno. He is good friends with my machinist.

Good luck Jeff! Can't wait for the results!

Best of luck hopefully it does all you want it to do.....Refresh my memory any big changes other than the block from the old set up?

What he said!!!

The only thing I used from the old engine, is the distributor, and oil pan. SR heads vs 440-1 345CNC's, 499ci vs, 563ci, Bigger headers, bigger carb, and WAY bigger cam.

Should make plenty more power...Did you ever dyno the old combo?

I wish we could get some parts. Love to share the build stuff but its just sitting collecting dust

The old engine made 732hp with a flat tappet cam. Not sure what happened to the dyno sheets, as that was 19 years ago.

I know on my 'old' Jesel belt I had to skip a tooth to get it to 'retard' the cam. I think that was common. I don't think that cam will be too far off at all! But the motor might want it more retarded. What were the numbers at .200'? What springs are you using? I'd expect it to make about 900HP ( as intrepreted by "wallace") I'm assuming this is a different dyno than last? Regardless good luck!

Things are coming together Jeff!! You’ll be Brainerd bound sooner than you know it!!

Well should make enough to run an 8 That should be plenty to keep you ahead in the "steak dinner" races for awhile.

Well… I’ll keep this short and to the point. Never made any pulls today. Have water in the oil. Not sure where from, and honestly, I don’t even want to look at it right now. Pretty disappointed, and took the wind out of my sail.

Dang, Dude that suck, sorry for your problem.
Aluminum block, water in the oil, maybe a leaky sleeve or two

The first aluminum motor I assembled ( Older 1998 casting, KB Hemi) had sleeves installed to high allowing water to leak from the head gasket water passages over to the sleeve and drain around the sleeve into a pushrod hole down into the cam valley
Sleeves should be no higher than.004 max at room temperatures on the older KB blocks, call Indy and ask them what sleeve height they want on theirs
Look for the simple stuff first
You can find and fix this

Dangit. Sorry to hear that man.

Alright Jeff, it's after 2 PM now. What'd it make?????

It made a mess…

oh no !

Wow...... sucks big time!!

My suggestion will be to not take it too far apart without pressure testing it as is.

Hopefully it’s as simple as a leaking head gasket.

Damm, I hate to hear that! What happened man?

Yeah...Sorry something happened...But I know you will get it found and fixed!

Hopefully it’s nothing serious or expensive.

As much a I hate to say this I am not all that surprised and older Indy block is leaking especially if it had any repairs in its past. I have seen a few here that have done the same. Hopefully something simple. You may have some options if it is a leaky block however. Hope its not that bad and yes pressure test it before you tear it to far down. Seen a few of the old blocks leak around the bottom of the bore.....

Sorry to hear this Jeff! Bummer.

Sorry, Jeff. Hopefully, it’s minor.

well Al has seen this because this is what mine did also. So I had my block pressure tested COLD 3 times by 3 different high end machine shops before any machining and a 4th time once my sleeves were installed. Initial fire up was water in the oil. And lots of it. 1st tear down I looked at everything known to man, pulled my hair out. Tried 3 or 4 ceramic sealers but still got water in the oil, 2nd tear down I took the block to Indy and had them test it HOT, They can warm it to 200 degrees. I was told it was bad and leaking every where. So I run E-85 and I took the water out of it.. Jeff if you private message me I will help you as much as I can. Birdtracker

Sorry to see. Better on the dyno than in the car. Hope it's a easy fix. Had a friend dyno a motor this week that had oiling issues. If it was cheap and easy anyone could do it. Keep your head up . When it rips down the track you'll forget this.
Doug

I’m sickened by this…. this hobby serves up such a beat down sometimes

like DVW said if this stuff was easy everyone would have one. It only takes one very small thing to wreck everything. Birdtracker

x2!

I can relate; my 451 split #5 for no apparent reason in May. After sonic testing 3 blocks we finally found a decent one. Hopefully starting assy next week.

Keep your head up and try not to let disappointment cloud your end goals. I think we are all excited to see you rip some gears in that car!

When you get in the ring with a serious contender , you know that you're going to be hit.
You can still win the fight.
I've had parallel experiences , though not at this price or power level.
But the bruises to the psyche sure seem to last.
I hope it isn't too severe , or difficult to pin down.

I'm so sorry Jeff, this is brutal. I hope it's a relatively easy repair and you're only out time.

I had 5 major experiences like this right in a row. Its tough getting past one when you have that much time and mental work into it. It just shows you one small thing can have a effect on the whole project. Birdtracker

Update: After running the engine on the dyno for only a couple minutes, we found water in the oil. Pulled the engine off the dyno right away, and once it was back in my garage, I pressure tested the cooling system, and immediately found the leak. The water was coming from in between the block casting, and sleeve. A good friend helped me tear everything down, so I could get the block back to the machinist right away. Once it was back at his shop we discussed what happened, and where to go from there. He called this last Saturday, and said he has the sleeve out and pressure tested the block, and found a crack at the bottom of the bore. Today, I brought the block home, and prepared the block to be welded tomorrow, and then I bring the block back, to have the sleeve reinstalled.
Before anyone goes off, I’m not blaming anyone. Sh!t happens. This was a used, damaged block, that I bought extremely cheap. I have less into this thing than the fully prepared 400 block I had done nearly 20 years ago. It’s just the risk you take. It’s being taken care of. Time to move forward.

I try to make the best of all my experiences, if I don't have the bad ones now and then I don't really enjoy the good one.
Sounds like you have a bunch of good times in front of you

Good luck with it Jeff!

You have to take the not so good experiences in stride. For myself, it makes me learn about the problem, and how to go about fixing it. A couple years ago, I was having an issue with my Jerico trans. and was getting ready to load the car up in the trailer, when the racer next to me came walking over. He said, "It sucks having stuff go wrong, but do you see all these people walking into the gate, and into the stands? They wish they could be doing what you're doing now, instead of being a spectator. You'll get it fixed, and be back out again."

And Jeff. That fella was right! You have the knowledge and desire to get it fixed and be back out there! I have not been down the track in my car in ten years and it sits in my garage. I can't even bring myself to go spectate anymore. I will watch for updates on your progress and I wish you nothing but the best! Good luck Jeff!

Glad it is moving forward again, and I look forward to seeing you in September if Joel gets his car finished.

This was a Jedi mind trick! Either way you are in a good state of mind! Thanks for sharing the ups and downs, it makes the report more real and helps everyone put into perspective all the crap that happens behind the scenes, maybe it inspires us. Best wishes.

I think Joel will have been to the track at LEAST a half dozen times by the time Drag Week rolls around. Everything should be sorted out, and proven.

I feel like Joel typed that. lol

Older Indy blocks are notorious for leaking there. The material there is almost tin foil thickness in many spots. FWIW a partial fill might be a good thing to consider. Been down this road many times.

I resemble that remark! Birdtracker

It's over a 1/4' thick there. Just happens to be where the rod broke. At first it didn't look like much damage there. It is going to get a partial fill, just to help stabilize things more.

Block is welded, and turned out nice. It will be back at the machinists, less than 2 hours from me typing this. We pressure tested it, and the leak is gone. It just needs to be machined, and drop in a new sleeve, and I can put it all back together.

here is the best block filler I have found now. Its a synthetic. https://www.competitionproducts.com...ler-25-lbs/productinfo/ROK/#.Ys81soTMLIV

Birdtracker

on the rock block, best stuff out there.


Jeff that's great news! I hope you got your motorvation back. Now I better get busy so I don't lose another bet.

Thank you for that. Got it on order.

When Al and I filled mine, I got 2 clean buckets, a electric drill and a heavy duty paint stir tool , and a clean funnel. Measured everything out , got the first side level both ways then stirred really good. It took a person to hold the funnel while I poured. Went lots better with 2 people. Birdtracker

Make sure the core plugs are in before you pour! Don't ask me how I know.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3Z1fJKVyqPXbHacR0O/giphy.gif

Good luck with it, hopefully it is fixed, the only issue I have seen with pressure testing these bocks is NOT heating them up before you test them. Hopefully you have the problems fixed.

Hope the re-rebuild goes smoothly Jeff! Looking forward to some dyno results and seeing it finished!

Thanks Chip.

The RockBlock arrived early this morning, so I delivered it to the machinist. He’s on vacation for a week after today. I’m planning on being ready for Labor Day weekend. Still have to finish up the floor in the car, paint the scatter shield, and if time allows, paint the new hood for the car.

Just an update on this project. The block was welded, and I was lucky to find a sleeve .010 over, locally. After having the cylinder machined to fit the sleeve, it was pressure tested, and a pin hole leak was exposed. I picked up the block on a Monday, had it welded at work the next day, and in the afternoon, it was back in the machinists shop. Got a call this last Monday, and was told that the spot that was welded was now leaking worse... After work, I picked up the block once again, and something didn't look right. The new weld was much different looking than the previous work. Brought it into work, and the welder knew exactly what happened. He grabbed the wrong filler rod, and used a harder rod by mistake. I dug out the recent weld with a die grinder, and opened up a fairly big area. It was then rewelded, with the proper filler rod, and I delivered the block to the machinist last night. It's been a frustrating journey...

At this point, I just want to get the engine together, dyno test it, and get everything in the car before the snow flies.

Good luck Jeff!

Man, this thing is fighting you aint it! It'll be worth it in the end...just keep plugging away at it.

Fighting me like an old married couple that hate each other. Just been annoying, and disappointing. Hate not being able to make a pass in the car this year.

Hopefully it woudl out for you. As I have stated my luck with the older indy blocks has not been so good.

It will work out. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Right?

Yes sir...Lets hope this is the end of your long road...

The wrong filler rod is a kick in the shorts on top of everything else, ugh.

If you get it together after the MN tracks are closed, would you head south with it to make some passes?

It’s costly enough to hit the local 1/8th mile track, 50 miles away. No way I’m headed South to test.

Geez. Jeff, I hope things turn for the better man. The cost, the logistics, and hoping it works out takes all the fun out it. That is definitely frustrating. Good luck.

Thanks Wes. You aren’t kidding about taking the fun out of it. What I wouldn’t give right now to yank the handle on that Liberty trans.

Jeff

Got a phone call from the machinist on Monday. Finally some good news. The new weld was machined, and then the block pressure tested. Passed with flying colors. The new sleeve was going in, right away, then fill the block with Rock Block, bore and hone the cylinder, and cut the deck. He's hoping to be done with everything by early next week. Since Joel and I did not go on Drag Week this year, I went back to work, to save a couple vacation days. Once the block is back, I'll take a day off and reassemble everything, then take another day off for the dyno appointment. If everything goes well, I should have the car back together before the snow flies. At least I will be ready for next year.

Good luck with it Jeff! You sure need to catch a break! I hope to see it down here next year!

If my potato harvest job is finished, maybe I’ll see you at Grove Creek, Oct 8th. Good luck with it.

Last race at GC is Oct 1-2.

Picked up the block on Friday. Have only installed the crankshaft, and one piston. Need to cut the pistons down .005 or buy different head gaskets. Cutting the piston will be faster.

wedges RULE
Where is Hemi Joel

Most likely goofing off... I'm sure he's making out his Christmas list to include Texas Roadhouse gift certificates, so he can pay up on yet another dinner bet, in 2023.

How close are they to the head?

The piston was .011 above the deck, before this last mess. I have .051 Cometic gaskets. The piston now sits .014 above the deck. Too tight for my liking at this point.

Now don't go dragging my good name into this plebian world of wedgery. Isn't a Buick a wedge?

I am counting on block growth as it warms to increase clearance the head. If we gain . 008 in clearance as it warms. All good. I am thinking I should do a test to make sure. Now to figure out how to heat the lock to about 160,' to find out for certain.

I'd like to think the clearance would be fine with an Aluminum block, but I just am not willing to take any chances at this point. This engine has been 2 years plus in the making. No need to risk it.

What are you shooting for clearance wise Jeff? Mine are .004 below the deck....

I have seen some guys use a propane burner on a large pot of water that circulates water with the electric water pump. That was on an assembled engine though. I thought it was a pretty genius way to heat cycle and retorque stuff with the engine out of the car. Especially on the combo I saw it on, a twin turbo BBC that looked like a nuclear reactor under the hood with all the plumbing lol.

I want .040 piston to head clearance.

Thanks!

Shots fired ! Shots fired !

It was proven 30+ years ago, in a magazine shootout, that a Buick is far superior to a HEMI anything. It predates the internet, so it MUST be true.

.040" piston to head with an aluminum block is plenty conservative......

Right now I'm around .035-.036. The piston has plenty of rock in it. The highest point I saw was .028 above the deck.

Since piston contact happens due to piston rock, (those with more experience chime in if I am missing something) the idea of shaving . 005 off at an angle on the closed side of the chamber might be a way to save a current combo? The angle could be measured with the piston cold in the block, and the actual cut may only extend three quarters of an inch in. JUST THINKEN, 🧐

My old pump gas Duster stroker motor with Ross 22.0 CC dished pistons would touch the heads(knock the carbon off) on the cam side and motor mount sides at .035, but not at .040 clearance
IHTHs

Probably more work to do it that way than it's worth? Fairly easy to just skim .005 off the top. Can I get away with less, while using an aluminum block? Probably, but since this is a bracket engine, and I really don't have the funds to be buying new pistons, once something does go wrong. I'll just adjust the old shoe polish on the window instead.

That is the best way to make it easy on you that I know of

If it were mine I would just send it as is....But I like living on the edge