Lets talk Heads.....

TF270 vs. Indy 325 Big EZ1.....on a 512/400 ......B1's are not being considered due to special pistons required.

What's your thoughts? Which will make more HP? About to pull the trigger here.

The best flowing heads will make the most power at WOT
I wish I knew which ones are the best flowing but I don't

What's the rest of the engine & car combination?

Flow is very similar.

325 has a little larger area.......if you build something that can take advantage of that, it should be able to exploit that.

TF’s are less money and don’t need offset rockers.

One thing the mopar world is not short on is another 340cfm head. Take your pick

True Dat......

Its funny my G3 heads flow more air, 375cfm, with less lift....

The combo is my tried and true Duster...Should be 2705lbs without me in it. Shooting for 5.99 on pump gas!

Guy just went 6.08 112 + at 2930 pounds on pump gas with a small block and non offset stock style aluminum replacement heads( like edelbrocks) first time out with 1 5/8 headers on it. Correct headers and sorted out should go 5.90. That’s a touch under 650 horse.
500 inch big block with way better flowing heads should do it falling off a log,…

If the TF heads are in stock then they would be the lower cost, lower hassle choice. You can use a standard rocker arm setup so you save more money there. You can also oil the rocker arms internally with the TF heads. The TF270 heads are good for 700+ hp right out of the box. With a really good intake manifold and the right cam you can make close to 800 hp with the TF270 heads. The Indy big EZ heads will make more power on a race engine but you'll need to spend more money. The 572 that we just ran on the dyno made 860 hp with the big EZ heads so they can make power.

Has anyone gone 5.90's with TrickFlows? Just curious.

5.90s will require one hp per four pounds race weight. At 3000 race weight, that would mean about 750 hp actual, not dyno. So if you have DA of 2000 feet, you can see a need for a car/driver weight of 2900 or less, depending on $$$ spent to build hp.

Disagree it would take anywhere near that.

Respectfully, for sure you are dedicated to this hobby and you get things done! You are asking for thoughts. Are these thoughts to help you best achieve your new goals? I'm eager to offer some suggestions based on your responses. For posterity, we should consider the last motor you built (which i would need a refresher on details) and how it ran. Other than the heads, what are you changing? Where you happy with what it ran before or is your plan to step things up everywhere?
MY thoughts are to ask some relevant questions:

1) What's wrong with the heads you had before?
2) What are your goals? (HP/ET?)
3) Are you imposing any limits to what parts to use? Are you imposing limits to how much you want to spend?

That shouldn't be a problem for either head as long as the rest of the combination is up to the task.

Ok so you bring up some questions....I figured I would keep it simple to see if one had a major advantage over the other....So a little background:

Last engine was a beast. It went 6.02 at 115mph on probably its third or forth outing with slicks that had two seasons on them. Had a guy make me an offer on it, I could not pass up. Sold it. It was a 543/440 with Indy Big EZ1 heads switched to 2.25 intake valves. Fully ported, and a .680 lift cam and nearly 14:1 compression.

Also had a 512/400 with those heads and it also went 6.00 in that combo...

Now building a very similar engine 512/400 block, now with a .713 lift Bullet cam and same duration, different Centerline I think, fresh slicks, and only 10.7 compression.

Same everything else....Goal 5.90 again....now with a little smaller engine.

PS....I had multiple buyers for the car drop out, so I did not expect to be doing this again with this car, and got a late start on it. Its well built and with the right parts, it should achieve my goal. Or sell this shortblock at the end of the season and build another 543...I probably should have one as a backup anyway.

Where are you geting info from?
I raced with a 3,000 lb dart, 499 with indy 440-1 bowl ported heads, good sized roller, 14x32 tires. Went 9.50s on gas at 12.8 compression, 9.30s on alky injected. We race in MN usually at 2200 da (ok air) to 4500 ( hot). A motor dynoing at 750 hp won't make near that at 2200 da and humidity.

I'm not sure what exactly you weighed anymore? 2950? 3000? 115mph is not good MPH for fully ported Indy heads/Intake and 14:1 Something was wrong there and whatever you did in the past has to change to make 725-750HP to reach your goals. I feel taking a hard look at some of the dyno tests AndyF has done and interpreting just what you can and can't get away without. On a stock block thin rings and gas ports go a long way along with a vac pump. If you are the engine builder/engineer you should know what the exact cam specs are along with the valvetrain it'll take to support it...power there. One thing I'm sure you're missing is the intake manifold, you say cutting out the extensions is the way to go but when you look at Wilsons work AND pipemax programs you'll see different. Beyond that it's execution on the details that separates a guy making 50-100+ more HP using the same parts. Please take this all constructively, that's my intent.

Well, we know somthing is holding it back a little. Last year we made crazy looking headers for it. and went the same 9.48/6.0 with our previous combo.....

So this year, we are changing cams...Bullet cam is .711/.699 with 272/278 @50 on a 108 lobe separation instead of 110... I think my other was...Weight wize, it should be 2950 with me in it. It was 3000lb with the 543/440....

My 470 made 750 hp with the TF270 head and pump gas compression but it was a really serious build. I had to test multiple cams before finding one that worked just right. That engine also had a Wilson ported intake, Jesel belt drive, external oil pump, etc. It was more expensive than a typical bracket race engine. I probably had about $20,000 in that engine. I think it could be duplicated for less but a person would need to make all the correct choices.

The easiest way to make more power is to add compression. The 10.7 compression is going to really box you in. You can make big power with that compression but you get forced into a narrow power range and a very specific camshaft.

I saw your build. I only remember some of the specs. I had the pistons & block already, so they are what they are. Seems you had some pretty exotic valve train on that engine. I always wanted build a crazy 1.8:1 ratio rocker pump gas beast....Your engine was pretty neat. I cannot afford Wilson's services, so I did mine myself. I did call them for an estimate though. Nice people.

Cam should be here Tuesday. Its an incremental change from what we have been running since 2013....So no dyno time, and just our best guess.

What do you think you will want to do down the road? If you will be happy with 5.90 1/8th ets, then i would take a hard look at what it would take to get there with the 270s. You might have to get some weight off the car, but i suspect it might be doable. If you want to go faster and faster, look to a bigger head that can be opened up further. A frank talk with some seasoned dyno operaters/ engine builders will shed light on cost, versus power and reliability. In my case i expect to go 8.40s in the 1/4 at 2880 lbs but i am spending a bundle to do it. If i had put half the money i have spent on this quest in a much lighter car
I could build a much lower stress powerplant.

Valvetrain had good parts in it but nothing really exotic. The heads and valves were box stock. We changed the valve springs and used T&D rocker arms. Here is one of the articles: https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/

Down the road goals, I guess, I am not sure as I have a lot on my plate, and next year my world changes drastically as I relocate south. So 5.90 is just an incremental goal I have wanted to hit, but would love to win another points season championship.The car works well, so, if I keep finding ways to lighten it, or better parts for the engine, we might hit my goal this year. There is about 50lbs of weight I know if I work at it, I can remove. Maybe more intake porting....And we have brand new slicks...

I will build another 543 I think this fall as a backup....For the money, I think that is one of the best combo's a person can build....After that, I have to finish up my Cuda and then collect parts for the Barracuda and bu then, it will be time to move south.

What did it run et wise ? just curious about these heads.
I built a 12 to 1 511 rb with used SR's and a flat tappet cam for 4500$ its been 9.60's

That engine never went in a car. Sold the top end to one guy, the short block to someone else and the oil system got parted out to a bunch of different guys.

If I was building a wedge I would look up Andy F's builds and copy one. He knows how to milk a wedge.

So reliability is a must, to win a championship. Low maintenance, long life motor.

Thanks, I am curious if this would be new territory for that head. I my book 5.90's is pretty fast. Kinda like the 10.0 to 9.9, but the next step.

Exactly. So you will never know how it ran. Dyno = bullsh!t if it don't run a number

Yeah, now you have me thinking that with all the variables in these dynos, was it actually 750hp

“In theory”, a 5.90 in the 1/8 is about a 9.25 in the 1/4.

At 2950lbs the Moroso slider shows 705hp, uncorrected....... as it sits on the starting line.
So, figure you’ll need somewhere around 6-10% more STP corrected dyno HP to end up with that figure in typical upstate NY summer air.

775hp seems like a big ask for a bread and butter bracket race pump gas 511.

Yeah, typically this combo runs 6.20's......We have been 6.14 on pump gas with an almost identical combo....But as I mentioned, we have made a few small changes to it. That combo had a basic 295 head with 2.19 valves, and this will have a 325 with 2.25 valves, and this new cam is bigger too, and the free'r flowing headers this time, fresh slicks...and maybe 50lbs less weight....We are trying to hit it without sacrificing reliability. Last two seasons, we lashed the valves once, and we were good for the season. Good valve train = happy engine with good tuning.

The other thing I can do, is go higher launch and shift rpm....

Using the same factor that shows a 5.90 in the 1/8 as a 9.25 in the 1/4, shows a 6.14 in the 1/8 to be a 9.63 in the 1/4.

On the Moroso slider, a 9.25@2950lbs shows it would require 85hp more than a 9.63@3000lbs.

The Wallace 1/8 mile calculator shows 69hp more to go from 6.14@3000lbs to 5.90@2950.

Nonetheless, sounds like you have a plan...... which we’ll look forward to you sharing the results from.

I agree, 775 isn't going to happen from a bracket race pump gas 511. Those typically make right at 700 on the dyno. Everything has to be just right to get the extra 10% which means you have to be willing to spend a bunch more money on parts and dyno time. Most guys just make a few pulls on the dyno to verify the build and then go racing.

I just caught rhe part about pumpgas. Seriously, you need cubes and airflow for that . What parts do you have to throw at a 4.5 bore aluminum block? Maybe $ 6600 to get one in hand (BME) , ready to assemble, and750 to 800 pumpgas hp will be a whole lot easier to do. The block should turn out to be a one time investment, and 100 pounds off the nose is huge . How much would it cost to replace two broken stockblocks? A lot more than just blocks and machine work.

So it sounds like the 325 is the "correct" choice

Mega Block 589 cubes 4.565 bore x 4.500, just 10:1cr, 5/64 ring pack pistons, tiny Herbert street s/roller, .625/.625" 260/270@.050, 572-13 365cnc heads, 440-2, old 950hp carb, =695 dyno hp@5500-5900, how hard to get another 100hp from that spec upping the CR etc.,and still keeping it pump..... it has gone 10.3@130 with a 727 with a street converter in a 3800lbs RR in full street trim on a 10x29" Hoosier tyre on a no wind day at Santa Pod. Take 850lbs out of the car and it would go>

60 Foot E.T. : 1.31 Seconds
1/8 Mile E.T. : 5.95 Seconds
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 114.22 MPH
1/4 Mile E.T. : 9.43 Seconds
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 142 MPH

Just an example.

You dyno and horsepower guys kill me. Lol. Get the damn thing to the race track and put in some work. My little 422 with a solid lifter cam has gone a best of 5.98 and a boat-load of low 6.00’s. Not at some coastal super track either. Off the shelf pistons, no vacuum pump, no special ring packs, and a bracket sized tire 4 inches bigger than needed. Sure it’s 2880 pounds but yours could be too.

it has gone 10.3@130 with a 727 with a street converter in a 3800lbs RR in full street trim on a 10x29" Hoosier tyre on a no wind day at Santa Pod. if that was aimed at me John?......I don't hold much on dyno's either but this time this one was on the money EDA is the company.

No it wasn’t aimed at you. Why did you think it was. Maybe I hit reply like most people do from the post above it.

ok John, no worries what you do is cool man.

You to buddy. Some people compare dyno sheets and some guys RACE.

John, i think you missed a point. To meet both goals, pumpgas and season long reliability in a bigblock, it can be done, but will push stock blocks hard to achieve it. I want to hear Dragula won a season championship in shat air, run 5.900 in doing so and only had to change oil and check lash for the next season. That takes a pretty conservative, large motor to do. So that is my thoughts on how to get there based on experiance. The low stress is key, and allows money to be spent on a good base, like an aluminum block. With a combo like that, a data base for racing can get real long and accurate, unlike my last fifteen years of chasing ets.

The only base info with regard to a TF270 going 5.90's was HP given from a dyno. I wouldn't trust (spend money) based on that. Unless you are trying to be the first at something. That 470 Could have run 6.20's then what? You'd be stuck (spending more money).

Has anyone gone 5.90's with the 325EZ? Again just curious.

This car has EZ heads on it. Last year he ran a stock block 505 with TF270 heads on it. The 505 made about 750 hp with the TF270 heads, makes even more with the EZ heads although now he has a 572 inch shortblock under the EZ heads.

The TF270 vs EZ295 vs EZ325, on a 800hp type 540+ short block would be a fun dyno shoot out.
Then finish it off with some 440-1 cnc345’s.

It would be a very good dyno shootout. Just need $30,000 and a year or so to round up the parts!

I'm pretty sure I know how things would stack up but there is typically a surprise in the pile. Big question would be the cam. You can stack the deck either way by optimizing the cam for one end or the other. Probably get the best reaction from the crowd by using a big cam that was designed for the -1 heads. Then you get a big bang at the end of the shootout.

540 with 13.5 compression and a ported intake with a 1250 carb should make 750+ with the 270 heads and end up around 850 with the -1 heads.

What did it et with the 505?

9.70 to 9.90 depending on conditions

Let's not forget my friends car that I sponsored and wrenched on for years. It has gone 5.87 at about 117mph with a set of eddy rpm's that are pretty much maxed out. Hughes flat tappet cam, tunnel ram 2 750 holleys. About 2850#. 499RB. If I knew how to post a pic, I would.

Where do a set of maxed out B-1 heads fit in this line up?

North of the 440-1 heads

This is Andy F's old 514 with Indy EZ heads and a hand ported Victor Intake it went a best of 9.64 @ 138, 1.33 60' @ 3800 lbs with me 210lbs on a 9" slick

Nice picture. You have that car hooking up and going! Nice level wheelie too. Doesn't get much better than that.

Imo, “Maxed out” B-1’s wouldn’t even be part of the conversation unless one was shooting for, and building something capable of over 900hp.

Super Victor intake with a Dominator, or Victor?

This engine makes good power for Indy EZ heads. I'm sure there's more in it based on the mph/weight/ET not lining up. Probably a solid 850HP. Nice car/combo!

Looks good!!

Looks that way. That 514 usually made between 850 and 900 hp on the dyno when we were using it for part testing but in those days it had a dry sump system as well as a Wilson ported intake so it isn't the same combo that we ran: https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/modify-carburetor-run-oxygenated-race-gas/

Do you have a rear anti-roll bar in that car? The lift looks very square with the front of the car nice and flat rather than torqued over.

Sorry for Late response.... No anti roll bar ... Looking into it, I have 4.30 gears and crossing the stripe at 7500 + so I may change back to my 3.90 gears also got some Menscer Rear shocks.
I'm more worried about Diesel prices than race gas

The launch looks very square for no anti roll bar. You must have the chassis dialed in right.

The engine should live at 7500 rpm but I think you're well past the power peak so that might be slowing you down a tad. 3.90 gears would probably drop you back into the 7000 range which is right around the peak. Changing to a taller tire might be less work, just depends if there is one available that fits your car.

Was wondering because several years ago a 451 using Modern’s B1 heads ran 9 teens - was wondering if these other heads were a power loss compared to the B1’s..

Looks like they are.

I have very limited tire selection at this time so the gear change is easier, I have a Super Victor with a 1150 Ultra Dominator

Great read, and info. guys....I searched out this post to query the experts here on my own situation. Currently running an iron 286 max wedge head, lightly rubbed on, and cast mw crossram, which I'm not changing. It's a period correct thing. The EZ-1 not only saves weight, but exhaust port location also allows me to keep the stainless headers that I prefer to only purchase once. I'm not rich, but am also not averse to buying the 325 EZ-1's, rockers, and/or investing in port/machine work to pick up some et. Current package is 511, @3700#, best 10.30@131, 1.31 60 on a 9" tire. Appreciate any input. Thanks.

Yeah a switch from iron MW heads to aluminum heads should pick up some power. You might consider Trick Flow 270 heads rather than the Indy EZ heads since I think they will provide more flow for the $. You'll have to take a close look at what the compression ratio will be with the new heads since the chamber size will probably change. You'll also want to think about changing the camshaft since the newer heads have a lot more low lift flow. Typically you need to keep the cam on the smaller side with the Trick Flow heads or else you'll blow the power out the exhaust.

Thank you for the feedback.

If your going to switch heads look at the Indy440-1, they flow a lot more air and make a lot more power than any other true wedge head available today
Do it once with no regrets later

IMO your stuff runs pretty good for the parts you are using. I'd be willing to bet if you swapped on the new INDY crossram that would gain you MORE increase than swapping heads!!! Cheaper too.

Interesting to know what was learned from this thread? I feel the competent consensus was not to expect any significant change because no significant change was planned to be made. There are a few examples of high HP 'pump-gas' builds to model. Some people are saying this can't be done. Some guys I am familiar with DON'T or haven't dyno-tested their engines and they do just fine. But the one's that run well, methodically chase after their combo for improvements. I've seen more than my share of good performers on the dyno that didn't translate into the car UNTIL supporting parts and tuning refinements were made!!! Just the same I've seen quite a few inflated dyno #'s. Not that it matters but, I'm curious what people think my 'old' 485" would 'dyno'.

In all the talk about heads remember one thing, you can take two heads that flow exactly the same but the head with a higher velocity of air moving through it will make mor HP, seen it on my bench many times. And don't assume that the money you spent on CNC porting will solve the problem, seen several CNC ported heads with a lazy air flow in the port, bigger is not always better.

[spoiler][/spoiler]Why flow numbers mean as much as dyno numbers. Most high end head porters care way more about cross section and port CC than a flow number. Its usually the customers pushing for that number because they read it on the interwebs.

A dyno is just a tool. I now guys that will wear there junk out on the dyno and just toss it in the car and expect a miracle to occur. Been pretty rare that a great tune on the dyno was what the car wanted on the track.

As for Hardcores engine on an honest dyno I would say its a 700ish HP piece. But it was also not in the car long enough to be fully sorted out. But MPH tells the tale whether ET does or not. But that same engine on other dynos could make 800, its a tool not a be all end all.

Yes, it'd 'showed' low-mid 7xx. That was my point, like most other combo's, they are unsorted as far as adjusting in the car. On the dyno, I'm pretty sure it'd dyno better than it showed. Which is for the few in here that wonder if it has been/can be done. To better show, with an example, of what it took to get better numbers out of similar 'core' parts. Among other places, I have learned from here what goes with what. And it's caused many delays in WHEN I finally decided to 'commission' what i wanted mostly because, I didn't want something 'common'. But there are probably many here that wouldn't stack the same parts together.

Dynos are simply a tool, some tools are better than others. No different than a flow bench, desk top dyno or whatever. One can tell when a car is an over achiever vs and under achiever. But certain things are pretty concrete. Like MPH and Weight, they dont lie as a true measure of HP. People chasing dyno numbers and flow numbers rarely have the fortitude to fully sort out their combos and are content to quote meaningless HP and flow numbers....