Installing my camshaft 2* advanced

I'm installing my camshaft 2* advanced. What should I expect? Any guess of HP, Torque and RPM peaks of each?

10.5:1 440 stock port Edelbrock RPM heads, Eddy performer RPM intake, headers ect.
camshaft specs in picture
Copper

are you adding 2 degrees of advance? cam already has 4 degrees of advance ground into it. so, what's the purpose for 2 more degrees?

I'm trying to bring the stated 6500 rpm power curve down a bit and move it to even a better bottom rpm range. Thats why I'm asking smarter people than myself.
Copper

2 degrees more advance will move peak power a couple hundred rpm down, but may increase cylinder pressure some due to closing the intake valve earlier. how critical is the use of pump gas? in my opinion i'd install the cam per cam card specs and work the ignition for more low end. perhaps a different cam profile would let you get closer to having your cake and eating it too.

Alot of times it comes in a degree on either side anyways depending on your setup and it's not typically worth the work to move it a degree for a street car. If it's coming in two degrees advanced, I wouldn't hesitate run it if it were my build. Just note it all down in a log so you can recall if you want to make a "tuning" adjustment later.

Are you installing it at 106, 104 or 108 ATDC on the intake lobes?
I would try installing it at 106 like recommended and go from there.

Honestly, the chances of a fast rate hyd cam pulling strong up to 6500 in a BB is pretty slim.

yep. i don't pay much attention to the cam grinders peak rpm/power numbers.

Always good to state the actual intake centerline in discussions. The words "straight -up", "advanced" and "retarded" have different meanings to different people.

What engine is this going in? That cam will rpm a lot different in a 383 verses a 510.

I'm not too sure that 6500 is even achievable with XE cam's in any motor.

I cannot say if putting that cam in at 104° is right for your set-up. It could be. But if you've never run this cam and you think you should run it at 104° (what I would call 6° advanced), maybe you should consider a different cam.

If you think a hydraulic cam in the 240° duration is right for your set-up, I would also suggest looking at a solid flat tappet cam.

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with running it at 104°. It's your call.

All of the above plus the rest of the car is also important,. A 3000# car with 4.10 gears and a good converter might love that cam but a 4000# car with 2 something gears and a 12" converter will likely hate that cam. Advancing an extra 2° won't fix that.

Don't be surprised if it hits a "wall" about 5000-5500 r.p.m. Been watching a series of you tube videos about a clown building a 440 for "Mopar MaMa" which inexplicably wouldn't rev past 5k. Many missteps along their way, but I don't know if they ever figured out they pissed in their wheaties with the fast comp cams hyd, cam and 1.6 rockers,

Buy yourself a good engine program, I like Performance Tends, but there are several good ones. There are so many variables in advancing or retarding camshafts that a computer program with GOOD numbers inputed is the best way to go. I been messing with mopar engines since 1974, I never install or build any engine now mild or wild without using an engine program first.

1970 Dart Swinger, 3:55 posi, 2800 stall 727, 3" mandrel stainless to the bumper, mini tubs, 275/60 15 bfg's
I don't have a weight measurement of the car yet but I know that the 440 with aluminum heads, intake, water pump and housing, and headers weighs less than the stock 318 with P/S, A/C, iron manifolds ect., plus I removed a/c and heater boxes, power steering, all A/C components, swapped the 150# bench for seat very light import bucket seats. I'm guessing 300-400 lbs less than stock.

Well I have been successfully scared off of the fence about advancing the camshaft an additional 2* degrees and have installed it as built/ground.
Copper

I've never heard of or lifted a stock A body front bench seat that weighed over 100 lbs., I did weigh several different sets of bucket seats and one stock 1971 duster front bench seat when I was putting my old pump gas Duster together, I'm thinking the 1973 Duster bucket seats combine were around 70 lbs. and the bench seat weighed a little more, maybe 8 to 15 lbs.
The 1971 buckets weighed more,10 to 20 lbs. more for the pair than the 1973 buckets did hence me using them
That car had a 400 stroker motor in it and was not built to be real light, it weighed 3450 Lbs. with me in it with extra padding under the carpet and above the head liner, standard steering, heater box and no back seat, five point chrome moly roll bar and a Summit brand 3.0 inch exhaust to the rear bumper.
I move the motor back right at .18 inches and move the rear end forward 1.0 inch, it had 50.6 % weight on the front and the rest (49.4%)n the rear tires with me in it
It would hook up in a mud puddle in a rain storm
Best ever ET was 9.993 at 134,8 MPH using Oregon 91 octane pump swill with the air cleaner and exhaust hooked up and working

i think that's a good decision. run it, tune it, and then make a decision about installed centerline, especially with a cam with advance already ground into it. if pump gas is a concern with 10.5:1 compression i don't think i'd want the intake valve closing sooner than the stated 68 degrees ABDC. the suggestion about a solid lifter cam is very sound. you will find a solid cam to have more flexibility. big hydraulic cams just add to the misery index.

My guess is that you'll never be able to tell the difference but that shouldn't stop you from going ahead and trying it. I've played with installed position on the dyno (using a Jesel belt drive to make the task easier) and I've never seen a big difference. What does seem to have some truth in it is the old rule of installing the cam so the intake opening and exhaust closing events are evenly centered around TDC. In your case, that would require installing the cam at 109 so the intake opens at 35 and the exhaust closes at 35. But 110 with the intake at 36 and the exhaust at 34 is probably close enough.

[quote=fast68plymouth]Honestly, the chances of a fast rate hyd cam pulling strong up to 6500 in a BB is pretty slim. [/quote
What’s your reason? spring, lifter float or harmonics? Reason being I took out a cam from a 383 that did 6500 then into a stock low compression 440 that was hard to get to 5000. Tried 3 sets of springs and no change. 509 cam. Ideas?

To the op I agree run it the way it came.

Ya, I think i get what your trying to do by lowering the total rpm on the torque/power curve. Is this just driven on the street ? or is it raced ?

Correct, just street driven and I just wanted the power/torque a bit lower in the rpm range. Swapping our and breaking in another flat tappet cam that's better suited for my application/wants just doesn't seem worth the effort, risk or cost. This all came about because I have the engine apart to replace some gaskets and freshen up the paint and detail. Uncovering the timing chain and knowing that the crank gear has the advance/retard keyways started the ideas in my little head so....
Copper

You should go ahead and change it just so you go thru the process. You'll never learn anything by listening to a bunch of opinions on the internet, you actually have to run the test yourself and see what happens. In your case you'll never notice the difference but you shouldn't take my word for it, do the test and see for yourself and then you'll know.

My guess is you want seat of the pants power, but yet want to drive down the highway at a lower rpm.....right ?

Install @ cam card spec 106 , tune and drive it. Watch your temp too. .....get a feel of it. Advance 2* , tune and watch temp........wont cost you anything but time. Chances are, you will change back to something else.

This is the best advise yet. You really don't know what difference if any advancing that camshaft 2 degrees will make, and you will never find out if you don't try. What's a worst thing that could happen? A minor change in the torque curve and shifting at a few hundred rpms earlier?

My opinion (which isn't worth the ink used to create this post) is it won't make a noticeable difference, and if it does, it'll be favorable. It might result in a little more torque in the mid range, make the engine a tenee wenee bit snappier with no noticeable loss up top. Just do it and be glad you did it because YOU wanted to do it. No worries. Best of luck.

I know just who you are talking about they dyno the engine again after changes got 470 hp out of it. be ok for a street car

Based on your comments I think you may need to change the cam entirely to achieve what you're after. (understand your trepidation of breaking in another cam)


Still, while it's apart, I think the best thing you could do is say, this is my goal/what I would like to achieve. Then, change what's necessary to achieve that.

Advancing your existing cam will not likely align with the ideal answer to the above question.

Crane cams literature from years ago stated that moving the cam 2° would change the power band 50 rpm. Advancing the cam would peak it 50 rpm lower and retarding it 2° would raise the peak power 50 rpm. They probably knew what they were talking about, so unless you need to make more power lower or later for your combination or you are looking to operate the engine in a specific rpm range you will never notice the difference.

Agree with most of the viewpoints above especially you'll never learn unless you try life lessons!
I have already installed it as built and i'm going to leave it alone. Pump gas concerns and actual rpm shift/gains made me question the cliche' "if it aint broke, don.t fix it"
This has served as a lesson on how to better choose a cam in the future. Thanks for all of the
Copper

so what would you learn if the cam was installed an additional 2 degrees advanced if it was never ran at the ground in 4 degrees advance?

the old rule of thumb was if you don't know where to install a camshaft then put it in with the overlap split as a starting point. i think this rule is still a good one.

Was the cam degreed/checked at original install and if so was it at 106 or 110?

Back in the 70's I just lined up the marks and went on my way. Now I know what the smart kids were doing.

I've seen many gear sets have the dot on the cam gear not directly over the point of the gear tooth, more towards the middle If I align the dot to the right side facing the gear it would be one tooth off which is right at 12 degrees on the 3 bolt BB gear sets with the 3 keyways on the crank gear
I've seen many BB Mopar builds that wouldn't fall out of a tree with the cam retarded 12 degrees
I learned that lesson, about NOT assuming lining up the dots was the best way to install cams the hard way, it was on the first solid roller cam I built for a customer Turned out the cam keyway was cut into it 10 degrees off
I degree every cam now , why shouldn't you DO IT

And that test was specific to that engine with that cam. You really cannot extrapolate much from that test. Engine Masters did a similar test.

Thats exactly how my comp cams timing set worked out on my 505 project.

I agree.... Good point Dwayne. You are the voice of experience.