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Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk
Posted By: BLONDE BARRACUDA
Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 01:58 AM
Went to drag strip Saturday. Made 3 passes with the best of 14.2 at 95mph with a 1969 Roadrunner 440 6pk with 4speed. Mainly stock with a little better cam, 391 gears. Tires were spinning in 1st only with a best of 1.90 60ft. Was hoping for mid to upper 13's. I think that maybe the factory fuel system was a little restrictive. Seemed sluggish after the first 1/8th mile. Is this ET sound about right with this combo or is it slow ???? It is just a street car/daily driver but kind of expected it to ET better...thanks for any and all replies
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 02:13 AM
You're down on power. You should be hitting at least 102 MPH. Check the basics, timing, fuel pressure.
Sheldon
I do believe it is fuel related. I do have a restricted inline fuel filter. Thanks for your response
Posted By: Runner
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 02:40 AM
what were the rest of the numbers on the slip. spinning to a 1.90 60' would lead me to believe the car could go low 13s-high 12s.
the 1.9 60ft run hooked up pretty good. The other two runs were 2.15 and 2.2 60ft. Mph was between 93 and 95. I don't have the slips on hand but that was the just of it. The best ET was with the 2.15 60ft.
Posted By: B1Fish540
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 02:55 AM
Do you have a 3/8" line and pick up? The 5/16 is too small if you have that. What type of pump are you running? I had good luck with the carter 120 gph one.
Posted By: Runner
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 02:59 AM
what was the 1/8 mile numbers? im still running 5/16 pickup and a carter strip pump and am running 119 mph in a 3800 pound car.
It has the factory pick up and fuel pump which I agree could be the problem although many muscle cars came with the 5/16th line and mechanical fuel pump and ran much quicker than this.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 03:05 AM
Some thing isnt right, have you checked basics, like timing? If the stock fuel system is in good working order, its not your problem period. A stock Road runner with a stock 383, with factory intake, carb, full interior, stock converter 3.55 gears. And a good tune, would run 100 mph in the 1/4. Spare tire in the trunk and all.
timing is at 36 degrees I still believe my in line filter is the problem. I do not believe at all that a stock 383 with 354 gears will run 100mph in 1/4. I appreciate your reply
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 04/06/09 04:32 AM
Posted By: Triple Threat
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 04:46 AM
Quote:
Quote:
timing is at 36 degrees I still believe my in line filter is the problem. I do not believe at all that a stock 383 with 354 gears will run 100mph in 1/4. I appreciate your reply
Quote:
ROAD AND TRACK: The standard engine was a 383 CID Roadrunner V8 rated at 335 bhp and 425 lb·ft of torque. For an extra $714, Plymouth would install a 426 CID Hemi rated at 425 bhp and 490 lb·ft of torque. Combined with low weight, the 6-passenger Road Runner could run the 1/4 mile in 13.4 seconds at 105 mph. It would prove to be one of the best engines of the muscle car era, and the Road Runner one of the best platforms to utilize it. Plymouth expected to sell about 2,000 units in 1968; actual sales numbered around 45,000. (It should also be noted Dodge debuted the Road Runner's cousin, the Super Bee, that same year
Read the quote again Freddy, that time is for the Hemi equipped Roadrunner.
Posted By: 67Satty
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 04:50 AM
I think the goal for the 383 back then was a 14 flat at 100 mph quarter. Even those I'm guessing were ringers.
I'm thinking the 13.4 at 105 must've been the Hemi.
Average, garden-variety, bone-stock, non-ringer not tuned-for the-magazines 383 Roadrunner? I'm guessing most of those would run a low 15?
Posted By: mopardamo
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 04:51 AM
Hello Tripp,
He knew.
Damon
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 05:05 AM
Non Believers LOL
Not only did they do it, they did it bragging, and as a advertisement Logo.
"In 1968 with the intro of the Plymouth Road runner, Mopars claim to fame was Speed on a budget, designed to run 100 mph in the 1/4 mile and sell for under $3000".
You probably wouldn't believe this same car with a little work, still carrying stock 906 heads, and Factory fuel system wouldn't run no where near 11.20's in the 1/4 either...
Rapid Transit's Believe it or not
Posted By: dave571
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 05:17 AM
Quote:
... I do not believe at all that a stock 383 with 354 gears will run 100mph in 1/4. I appreciate your reply
Stock 383's were 15 second cars most days. Well set up with some slicks and gears, and they improved some.
In any case I think you should put a fuel pressure gauge on the six pack car and run it. Also maybe a vacuum gauge. The vacuum gauge may show a valve spring issue, etc.
The times do clearly show that the motor has torque, but not hp. 
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 12:08 PM
A lot of the performance had to do with track conditions, like altitude and barometric pressure. Take a stock 383 RR and run it in Minnesota in the heat of the summer, and you are looking at 94 to 96 mph at best. DA would be somewhere around 4500 ft! Take the same car and run it on the east coast or down south in the fall, with a DA of 0 or mineshaft conditions, and guess what? It would pick up tremendously. I had a bone stock 69 440 RT charger, best was 14.92 at 96 mph. More than likely due to a DA north of 3000 ft. The Magazine cars got special treatments like the 440 exhaust (2 1/2 Vs 2 1/4) a re curved distributor, re jetted, so I know for sure there were ringers out there as well. All in all, they carried thier own wieght with the performance crowd very well. Simple little things like removing the spare, airing up the tires, a tweak of the left front torsion bar, a cold thermostat, proper cooldown and you could run another 1/2 tenths quicker than the average Joe out there as well.
What RPM did you shift at? Was the car cooled down well?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 01:39 PM
Quote:
Quote:
... I do not believe at all that a stock 383 with 354 gears will run 100mph in 1/4. I appreciate your reply
Stock 383's were 15 second cars most days. Well set up with some slicks and gears, and they improved some.
maybe with your grandma driving ... 
..
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 02:46 PM
tires spiing only in 1st is a huge problem... For every tenth you save at the 60 you get 2 down track. Your MPH is off too. Did you up the center jetting to 64? I've seen guys run 11's w/ 5/16 line, mech pump and a 6 pack so I'd check things like timing and carbs 1st. I'd disconect the vac advance and set your timing at 38* total at 2400rpm. Then check your vacuum readings, adjust it so you pull the best, set the idle, re-check your total and take it for a romp. I think that back in the day low 14's high 13's were what those cars were pulling on bais plys thru the pipes.
What else did you do? headers? bigger exhaust? mufflers? what are you shifting at? all that makes a difference.
Posted By: Dave Watt
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 02:56 PM
If you have original six pack carbs, the kill bleed holes on the outboard carbs could be oversized. We have seen many that were drilled too big and never let the ouboards pull open. Mine were like that and it would only run low 14's, once it was fixed, it would run 13.30's, bone stock with the skinny factory redline tires, 4:10's and a 4-speed.
Posted By: Dave Watt
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 02:58 PM
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 03:00 PM
Quote:
Non Believers LOL
Not only did they do it, they did it bragging, and as a advertisement Logo.
"In 1968 with the intro of the Plymouth Road runner, Mopars claim to fame was Speed on a budget, designed to run 100 mph in the 1/4 mile and sell for under $3000".
You probably wouldn't believe this same car with a little work, still carrying stock 906 heads, and Factory fuel system wouldn't run no where near 11.20's in the 1/4 either...
Rapid Transit's Believe it or not
a 383 RR w/ 3.55's on bias tires, even tuned to the nines, with a pro driver wouldn't do 14.0's...maybe 14.40@95 maybe.
and it will need a TON of work, meaning stroker, roller cam $$$$$ in head works to run in the 11's. If not I want to hear the combo so I can build one.
Posted By: Kevins493
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 03:27 PM
Theres a guy on here with a factory stock class (BONE stock) 383 superbee that runs 13.5's. Maybe he'll post on this thread. Its amazing whats possible when you're really good at tuning....
Posted By: moper
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 03:29 PM
What are the other time increments and speeds? It seems slow. How much is the driver tho? When does the acceleration peter out? What rpm are you launching and shifting at? What is the timing curve? To me, 38° may be a little too much timing. What springs are in the outboard carbs?
I know modern performance rebuilt, stock-part 383s that with decent tires and 3.23s will pull 100mph in the 1/4. Factory original or not, they can do it with the stock cam and a good tuner.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 04:14 PM
Quote:
What are the other time increments and speeds? It seems slow. How much is the driver tho? When does the acceleration peter out? What rpm are you launching and shifting at? What is the timing curve? To me, 38° may be a little too much timing. What springs are in the outboard carbs?
I know modern performance rebuilt, stock-part 383s that with decent tires and 3.23s will pull 100mph in the 1/4. Factory original or not, they can do it with the stock cam and a good tuner.
depending on gas 38* would be my start but 36* is good too. Yeah I failed to add what is your rpm launch, of course it's probably a little low because of your tires...You might want to roll out then hit it.
Best I could do with a 383 in a 69 Charger w/ 3.23's on radials was 14.10@101 but that was a very stout 509 cammed 383. 3.91's and slicks knocked me down to 13.28 same engine in a 68 dart and 4.56's went 12.18 w/ a terrrrible trans, but that's OT.
Posted By: 11secaarcuda
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 04:15 PM
Did you check the throttle linkage?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 04:28 PM
Without know other factors its hard to say where the
problem truly is... but you said you have a restricted
fuel system... thats gonna hurt, specially on a 6 pac
and 5/16 line, all HP engines from the factory had 3/8
fuel lines and pick ups. It suprizes me that you had
the best ET when you ran the 2.19 60'
Posted By: B1MAXX
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 04:48 PM
I have a 1970 rt charger 440 4 speed when it was bone stock the best I ever got out of it was 14.10's in the mid 90's mph. A lot of practice leaving with the stick netted et. Mr. p is correct factory "muscle" cars left with 3/8 line. My biggest problem in that configuation was the factory fuel filter and pump. The filter had that built in vapor separator. It would lay over in 4th. Replaced the fuel pump with an hp Carter and filter with a regular 3/8's one and plugged the vapor line back to the tank.
Posted By: BDS871Cuda
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 05:02 PM
Hey Blond,
Keep working with it, and it will come around.
We all can agree on one thing! It will be fun
putting passes on it, chasing ET's!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 05:15 PM
Quote:
Theres a guy on here with a factory stock class (BONE stock) 383 superbee that runs 13.5's. Maybe he'll post on this thread. Its amazing whats possible when you're really good at tuning....
Yes , he does have more gear either 3.91's or 4.10's and the car is over 3800 lbs .
My dart at 3600 with driver has gone 14.teens at 99.5mph with a timing chain that was so stretched and the plastic broken off the stock cam gear that I could have pulled it off without removing the gears .
The RR that this thread is about has a huge issue , and it could be the outboards not opening , that car should be in the low 13's .
Posted By: hemisurfer
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 05:34 PM
That would be my brother Florida_70Bee.
Ran a best of 13.47 the last time we were at Gainesville with a 1970 Super Bee 383 automatic.You would need to ask him about the combo.
I have a 69 RR 6 pack stroker 4 speed dana 410 same issues and almost identical times first time out, look at:
Fuel delivery
Headers
the heads themselves
stroker might be a bit different since it needs more air but the combo is close. The MPH should be over 100 minimum IMO for a six pack car.
Posted By: Cuda_Mike
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 05:50 PM
Actually, the 69.5 A-12 M-code 6 Barrel cars came with 5/16" fuel lines. I always upgrade to 3/8 though.
Posted By: moparniac
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 05:57 PM
clamp the springs.....
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 06:15 PM
Quote:
clamp the springs.....
the rear pass side spring? I tired that once in a 67 coronet and I din't see any improvement. what's the trick? The car was doing 1.68 60 foot.
Posted By: Kevins493
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/06/09 07:27 PM
Quote:
Quote:
clamp the springs.....
the rear pass side spring? I tired that once in a 67 coronet and I din't see any improvement. what's the trick? The car was doing 1.68 60 foot.
Doesnt make it 60' faster unless its spinning. Keeps it from going into wheelhop and it recovers quicker too...
Posted By: carolinacuda
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 08:51 PM
My old combo in a 74 cuda went 13.15 @ 107mph with a puny 2.09 60ft. I had a stock 440 with a 474 purple cam and torker intake and 3.91's with headers and 750 carb. My fuel system was all stock with a carter hi-po fuel pump. So I think you shld have more in that combo.
Posted By: StealthWedge67
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 09:56 PM
Just for reference: My full weight 67 Satellite with a low compression (2-bbl) 125,000 mile stock bottom end 383 and stock small valve 516 heads has gone 14.00 @ 98.68 MPH. It 60's @ 2.09. It's had the standard street hot rod treatment of headers, intake, Holley 4-bbl, 280*-ish cam, and a set of 3.91's.
Posted By: Jared_Jordan
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 10:52 PM
I went 13.73 @ 99 mph with a stock low compression 383 rebuild through exhaust manifolds in my Roadrunner a few years ago. 3.91 gears/auto trans w/stock valve body. It did have slicks on but only went 2.03 60 ft. Car weighs 3700 lbs with me in it.
Posted By: CompSyn
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/06/09 10:53 PM
Mr. 6Pack Racing Engines - LinkBob Karakashian… ‘Mr Six Pack’ Article by Terry Cooper
YouTube: Mr. 6Pack 8.09 @ 87.35 1/8th mile trackWith your six pack set up I highly recommend giving Bob Karakashian a call.
Bob runs his A12 69 ½ Super Bee in the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags and turns 12.09 seconds in the quarter @ 114 mph. He does it with the required factory HP exhaust manifolds, stock un-ported 906 heads, a full exhaust system, Carter mechanical fuel pump, and skinny G70-15 redline tires. Even more impressive, Bob’s cam in a 69 ½ Road Runner broke into the high 11s. Now that’s good tuning!
Anyway, Bob is a nice guy and is glad to help.
Check out this moparts.com thread
HERECompSyn
Posted By: BSB67
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/07/09 12:01 AM
You're way down on power. From where you are now, it is not a fine tuning issue.
1. Make sure you've got fuel, put on a good pump and filter. 5/16" line is not the problem at 95 mph, unless it is damaged.
2. Make sure the outboards are opening and opening soon enough. The outboard throttle plates can stick. You should be able to pull the vacuum line off the center carb and suck on the line and the outboards open. Check kill bleeds, or other possible problems in the vacuum pods.
3. Check the cranking cylinder pressure to see what you have and possibly identify a motor problem.
4. If the mufflers are old, they can fail internally causing a pluggage and rob a bunch of power. I had one muffler fail on a 105 mph car and it lost 4 mph and 0.5 sec in et from one weekend to the next. Took me a few weeks to figure that one out. I can only image what two failed mufflers could do.
For the DA of at least a few Wisconson tracks on Saturday, a decent 440-6 4 speed should have gone at least 105 mph. Your missing 100 hp.
Posted By: mike54
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/07/09 01:06 AM
buddy of mine had a 69 r/t 440 t-flite that ran 13.50s back in the early 70s.. ran at bristol tn....tires were street tires of that era...owner was part time ihra tech inspector..regular job physics and chemistry teacher ...needless to say the dude was sharp on racecars..car was a good example of a true ''showroom'' car tuned and driven by an expert....
Posted By: patrick
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/07/09 01:27 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Non Believers LOL
Not only did they do it, they did it bragging, and as a advertisement Logo.
"In 1968 with the intro of the Plymouth Road runner, Mopars claim to fame was Speed on a budget, designed to run 100 mph in the 1/4 mile and sell for under $3000".
You probably wouldn't believe this same car with a little work, still carrying stock 906 heads, and Factory fuel system wouldn't run no where near 11.20's in the 1/4 either...
Rapid Transit's Believe it or not
a 383 RR w/ 3.55's on bias tires, even tuned to the nines, with a pro driver wouldn't do 14.0's...maybe [Email]14.40@95[/Email] maybe.
and it will need a TON of work, meaning stroker, roller cam $$$$$ in head works to run in the 11's. If not I want to hear the combo so I can build one.
fast68plymouth's roadrunner with a 383 and UNPORTED 906 heads is an 11 second car....
Posted By: moper
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/07/09 10:57 AM
Keep in mind patrick, that's no factory 383 package. It's machined and prepped by Dwayne... That is as close to Stock Eliminator as one can get without sticking a number on the car...lol.
Posted By: patrick
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/07/09 12:09 PM
Quote:
Keep in mind patrick, that's no factory 383 package. It's machined and prepped by Dwayne... That is as close to Stock Eliminator as one can get without sticking a number on the car...lol.
true, but my response was refuting this clam "and it will need a TON of work, meaning stroker, roller cam $$$$$ in head works to run in the 11's. "
Dwayne's has unported (but I'm assuming a pretty trick valve job) 906's, is stock stroke, and IIRC runs a flat tappet solid.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/07/09 12:22 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Non Believers LOL
Not only did they do it, they did it bragging, and as a advertisement Logo.
"In 1968 with the intro of the Plymouth Road runner, Mopars claim to fame was Speed on a budget, designed to run 100 mph in the 1/4 mile and sell for under $3000".
You probably wouldn't believe this same car with a little work, still carrying stock 906 heads, and Factory fuel system wouldn't run no where near 11.20's in the 1/4 either...
Rapid Transit's Believe it or not
a 383 RR w/ 3.55's on bias tires, even tuned to the nines, with a pro driver wouldn't do 14.0's...maybe [Email]14.40@95[/Email] maybe.
and it will need a TON of work, meaning stroker, roller cam $$$$$ in head works to run in the 11's. If not I want to hear the combo so I can build one.
fast68plymouth's roadrunner with a 383 and UNPORTED 906 heads is an 11 second car....
Apples and oranges, it's far from stock. Getting back to the question, Did you check to see if the outboards were full 100% open? I even had a 750 Eddy carb choke flap suck down on me causing the 67 to slow. I had to wire it open...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Dissapointing Run w/440 6pk - 04/07/09 12:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Keep in mind patrick, that's no factory 383 package. It's machined and prepped by Dwayne... That is as close to Stock Eliminator as one can get without sticking a number on the car...lol.
true, but my response was refuting this clam "and it will need a TON of work, meaning stroker, roller cam $$$$$ in head works to run in the 11's. "
Dwayne's has unported (but I'm assuming a pretty trick valve job) 906's, is stock stroke, and IIRC runs a flat tappet solid.
I'm not sure if it's a flat tappet , STOCK would have had a hyd. cam I think ??? He does have a small lift cam , not sure if he changed rocker ratio , but the duration of his cam was so big that he had negative piston to valve clearance just rotating the engine over by hand . He had to add valve reliefs to his pistons to be able to run the engine so in essence he no longer had a legal stock motor , but yes no roller cam needed .
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/08/09 01:12 AM
for the most part, my thinking is along the lines of BSB67's.
but i'd want to quantify exactly what "mostly stock with a better cam" really means.
is it an OE long block with a new cam?
or is it a rebuilt motor with replacement pistons, reconed heads and a better cam?
if its a rebuilt motor, without knowing the specifics of the build......it could have easily taken a step backwards in the performance dept, depending on exactly what parts were used and the skill/proficiency of the shop that did the work.
none the less, i would start by checking all the basics first. make sure there are no mechanical or electrical gremlins not letting the combo run to its full potential......then tune from there.
as for my 383.....to set the record straight.
the short block and heads were originally prepped to run in NHRA stock eliminator.
when i was mocking up the heads and valvetrain, i discovered i had negative .010" V/P clearance on the intake valve.
since you cant flycut the pistons, the 2 choices were.......prep another set of heads, and dont mill them down to the minimum allowed volume, or use a shorter duration cam......or do some of both.
at that time the car wasnt going to be real competitive anyway......and i felt it was going to take a pretty serious effort to make the power i needed to even be able to be a "mid-pack" car.
less compression or less cam didnt really appeal to me that much, so i shelved the build.
several years later i decided to do something with the motor.
so, i flycut the pistons, set the heads up for dual springs, and installed a custom Comp solid flat tappet cam.
i never ran the motor with the NHRA cheater cam.
at 3650lbs, running 15 year old SS springs, with a mechanical fuel pump and the OEM 5/16" line, crank driven water pump, battery up front, slicks and open headers it would run under 11.50 in decent air.
with new springs/Cal-Tracs and an electric water pump drive it ended up going 11.26.
with a 6 pak hood, electric fuel pump/1/2" line/fuel cell, battery in trunk, remove wiper motor, heater box, rear seat(race weight 3550lbs), it went a best of 11.18 @ 123.
thats with unported 906's with a nice valve job that flowed like 233cfm.
however, more to the point about the OE 5/16 line......i had a roller cammed 448 with ported big valve 906's in the car from '95-'97, running high 10's/125+ in summer air.......with nothing but the OE 5/16" line and a Carter mechanical pump.
best ET from that combo was 10.61, best speed was 129, best 60' time was 1.46(all from different runs).....also done with the full interior, flat steel hood, battery up front, and crank driven water pump......and 3650lb race weight.
Posted By: BLONDE BARRACUDA
Re: Dissapointed with my run with 69 Roadrunner/440 6pk - 04/08/09 01:17 PM
Thanks to all the replies... I really appreciate it!