Tim Banning vs Ray Barton

Started a thread on here a while back about which guy to buy Hemi parts from. Cant find the old thread, so i'll start a new one. Long story short i found both guys to be nice guys, but Tim was more forth coming with info and specs, flow numbers and such, so i decided Tim would be the guy. I called him up, real nice guy, he talked my ear off. I ordered a pair of Stage v castings and 2 weeks later i call to go over the specifics of the heads, what's springs, valves and locks etc i want to use. They should be done as we speak. I will call today about that. No issues with the heads yet. I have also spoke with Tim about the block and this is where i believe he is leading me astray. Has to be a KB block because according to him the BM block is junk(not what i have found talking to other hemi dealers) and it has to have a raised cam bore and 60mm. This combo is only a 850-900hp deal. I'm finding the 60mm cam is a total waste for my combo and hard to find plus a lot more money to buy. I have spoke to enough Hemi people now that are all on the same page, but Tim seems to be on another. Its seems throu my calls and searching Tim builds a lot of weird combos that cost a ton of money. Like the 590 he wanted me to build instead of the 572 i want to build. If i follow him with the rest of the combo he's gonna lead me straight into the poor house. I am not looking to build a $50,000 Hemi. I thought i might be able to get this done for something like $20,000 or a little more. I have also been lead to believe a KB block is only about a 1 month wait by Tim. Anyone else i speak to says they can't get a KB right now. So i'm turning the wheel here and have decided on the BM block as i found a dealer that has one on the way not spoken for yet. Tim is the only guy i spoke with that bad mouthed that block. Tim also wanted me to run a belt drive on the street, which i wasn't sure that would be a good idea or not. So, Tim is a nice guy and all, but i think he has me over building this combo, it's not a 4000hp deal, but he's building it like it is. I found several other things he wanted me to do too, that were way off a street build. Looks like i can get this BM block for $7800 fully machined and ready for assembly, will see. Don't mean for this to be a bad mouthing thread, Just an update on my experience.

Belt drive, raised cam block, 60 mm...all big money unnecessary parts for what you're building. All things I did NOT want to run on mine. I 100% agree w/ you.
You know my combo and what it makes. Keep it simple.

I would agree with you. I don't see the 60mm raised cam as being a big benefit to you. Yes, some guys think they are sexy, and I guess so do I, but it all has a cost. And it adds complexity to the build. Complexity adds time and alters the fit of other parts. Sometimes guys just like throwing money at something for fun. I use titanium studs and nuts to hold my carb on. Does that make sense? No. I just like to waste money on sexy stuff. I believe you are overthinking this. An engine like you are describing is something that Ray Barton has built hundreds of times. Hundreds of them on the dyno. He knows how to get where you are going. He makes it too easy. I bought a Neon with a Ray Barton 572 in it. 975HP (more cam than you want for your application). It was nice.

FWIW...I concur. 800-900 hp HEMI's have been built with less cubes and less exotic parts for years why would yours need to be different (exotic parts wise). It might be interesting to hear why he believes BM blocks are junk, and why the raised cam (although with a 4.5 stroke it gets tight in a std cam height) Keep us posted as its always interesting to hear different views.

+1 to what everyone else said. I'm in the 800-900 hp range with a lot less than what he's suggesting.

Keep it simple especially for a street build. You want to drive the car not work on it all the time.

As for a block being a month away I just laugh. My builder and me heard for almost 18 months that a block was a month away. Don't believe Tim. If I could have gotten a Indy or BM block during that time I would have. Thankfully my engine is almost done. Damn covid and lack of parts sure slowed down the build.

W/r/t "all big money unnecessary parts for what you're building."
I agree, the Pentagon calls this "mission creep".

The block is always later than they said.

Sent you a PM.....Sorry to hear your having some issues with your build so early on.

FYI ....I do not have a raised cam block, and I am running a tad larger crank than 4.5....at 604 cubes. I think he did that so he COULD run the 60mm cam....I would be curious to see what the HP loss is at .700" and then .800" lift without it.

Hemi's get expensive quick...

I think Tim will push the KB block because he owns part of the place. The owner discount helps with the builder profit margin. Lol If I had to guess, I suspect the overkill stuff is probably what is in the pipeline to make that quick delivery time happen.

Sheer speculation on my part.

Kevin

I have no experience with Hemis or either of those 2 guys. With that said I've dealt with some machine shop/engine builders that like to spend their customers money for them.

All those fancy parts and no mention of dry sump oiling or fuel injection?
Why go halfway?

(kidding)

Agree with you.

Why not finish the heads and intake manifold with Tim, pay him, get them in your hands, and
then do the rest of the project under the guidance of someone who doesn't assume you have an unlimited budget?

Maybe even someone more local, where you can get involved more, go visit your project in person and talk face to face.

Just a thought......

Personally: The minute someone refers to parts I'm going to provide as "Junk", my reaction is usually:
"I would never ask you to work with Junk" and that is the end of that transaction.

I think your dead on. 100% agree.

That is my thought as well. Called up Best Machine in Detroit and spoke with Pete extensively about the build. I had him tag the BM Hemi block that’s on the way. I can drive down and pick it up when it’s done. Told him I plan on using Molnar crank and rods and suggest a Callies rod instead. Not sure which Callies rod, so what are you guys using?

The HEMI piston is heavier than a wedge typically and the Callies rod can handle the weight - its an upgrade worth the money IMO

I played with HEMI's 30 years ago - when I wanted to step back in racing with a big HEMI I talked with BEST - no disappointments with the 572 build they did for me - we had a lot of discussions on parts choices and what would work best for what I was going to do - They have the experience!

I'm going to be building a KB 572 C.I. B1 headed wedge soon, hopefully this summer
I need to order the pistons and send a used solid roller cam core to Bullett for them to see if I can use it in this B1 pump gas motor or not based on what LSA it has now
My concerns over the Bill MItchell aluminum block is how good the casting and machine work are
I had Tim do all the finish machining on my block as I was not in a rush to get it and most of the machine shops around here in OR don't do many Hi Po aluminum block builds
I am going to use a used Jesel belt drive as I have two of them on my parts shelfs
I ended up buying a set of Scat steel rods as they where the only company that I could find that had a 7.100 long rod with stock Mopar rod journal sizes to work with the old used KB 4.500 stroke top fuel crank I have in stock. I tried a set of Carillo aluminum 6.860 long aluminum I beam top alcohol rods and the pin bosses hit he counterweight on the crank so out with them and in with longer steel rods
Some times it pays to buy the best parts you can get, especially if your going to race it
I got on Tim list to buy that block a long time ago before any cast iron blocks were available, I now have two cast iron 4.500 inch bore Hi Po blocks in stock so I'm going to sell the 572 aluminum motor to help buy parts for the other two iron builds.
I also want to see how much power I can make with a B1 head on a aluminum 572 C.I. pump gas motor

The Ultra I beam sure looks like a nice upgrade....maybe that is the one they are referring to?

I provided a K1 crank and Molnar H beam rods when Best balanced my 572.

I'd be lucky to start with 150-200HP less than yours and I am fine with that, as I currently wouldn't have a clue what to do with 850hp
and need/want to work my way up.

I have used best machine for my builds. They have done a lot of hemi's in the horsepower range you are talking. It doesn't need to be an exotic combo. My 604 with CNC ported old style MP heads small cam pump gas made 860hp with a sheet metal crossram. I would give them a serious look.

Don't know much about FHO, people seem to like him, i have talked to him about parts before and he sold me an EFI intake for a customer car, seemed alike a nice guy. Barton has been around, but i don't know if that is shop you absolutely need to go to, its not like you were building a superstock class motor.

Callies instead of Molnar because of increased reciprocating weight and/or higher RPM: good question.
Callies instead of Molnar because of increased power: not so much.

Things to avoid: using Molar, and still thinking about Callies...

Yep, with that big dome Hemi pistons can get heavy.

Pete tells me 13:1 is the sweet spot for these Hemi’s. My plan was 12:1 and I’m now thinking just build it with 13:1 and live with it. I don’t mind mixing fuel as I do it now with my 12.5:1 511 wedge. Looking like CP will be the piston if a can find a shelf piston for this. Once I get the heads I can cc the chambers and intake to get a better idea on the compression and cam.

I doubt you are going to want to run anything less than straight 110 at 13 to 1
I had CP slugs in an old build. Sweet slugs. Very nice. Best did that motor, was very happy with it

Best (Chuck) built my 540" B1 motor16 yrs ago, (pre-Pete) and did a fantastic job. Best is more than capable for the HEMI.

My brother-n-law had FHO build his new all alum (KB block) 572" HEMI pump gasser last year for his '69 Super Bee streeter with a Passion 4-Speed. Its a complete animal when matted, and super tame under normal driving conditions. I drove the hell out of it this past Christmas. He raved about Tim's outstanding customer service, and more importantly how customer service was after the purchase.

I think Al Aguire (sp) is selling a HEMI with many of the things you are looking for .... maybe not exactly what you want , but get what you need

Yeah, maybe i should stick with the 12:1. Don't want to get into the straight race fuel gig. I understand these Hemis are good on pump gas to 11.5:1, so shouldn't take much race fuel. I'm currently at 12.5:1 in the wedge and only use 4 or 5 gallons race fuel to 15 gallon cell. So, it looks like i'm on my way now with this Hemi project. Thanks guys

Would you consider E85?

He probably means this one. https://www.callies.com/catalog/product/ultra-i-beam/? That's what I bought for my last build. (But I was trying to spend mo money.) Made in USA

I use a Callies Magnum crank, billet steel Oliver rods, and Diamond pistons. I went with better parts b/c I knew I'd end up spraying it eventually.
If it wasn't for the nitrous, I'd have probably used something like Molnar for the bottom end.

My thoughts on compression is do one or the other...meaning either use strictly pump gas or strictly race gas. Mixing fuels is a PITA and gets old quick. Keep it in the 11:1 range for pump gas or go 13:1 or better if you don't mind race fuel.

FWIW...mine is making somewhere in the 850 hp range on pump gas w/ cnc ported MP heads (probably the closest thing to a stock heads in aluminum), 4.5" stroke, standard cam height and timing chain, etc. Pretty boring as far as big inch hemis go, but I can't argue w/ the results. It's been almost 142 mph in the 1/4 on motor only, on pump gas, and over 3800 lbs..

At 12:1 a G2 aluminum hemi is just fine on 93 octane...Probably even 12.5:1.....

He was considering 13-1 which is why I asked as it would work well for that.

Yeah what he said....Be happy to let you come get it

What about Indy? They’re under new ownership & have moved to a larger facility.

Thanks for the offer Al, but i have to pass. I think its half the fun rounding up parts and putting it all together.

I had a Barton 572 hemi. It was 10.5-1. It made 804 on pump gas, no detonation, tire shredder. Don’t thing anymore is needed for the street.

That is a possibility, but i think its way more trouble than race fuel. Race fuel smells better.

I have time to decide, but it will be at least 12.5:1. Just got off the phone with Chuck, he suggested a Callie's crank as well. The compstar crank they like better than Molnar and the Compstar is less money than the Molnar as well. Sounds like a no brainer. Called Callies as well and they agree, the compstar rods and crank are good enough for what i'm doing. At this point it is also looking like i will need a CP custom piston as well. Adding up fast, but still will be way less money than Tim had me spending. Not a dig on him, just a fact.

I’m running 4.75 Callis crank with Oliver rods. Indy Max aluminum block, cnc Indy SR heads, 11:1 compression. It went 10.15@133 in 100 degree Arizona heat the first pass on the new engine and suspension on 91 octane and very conservative timing. Waiting for the Indian tribe that owns the land the track is on to lift the COVID mask mandate to go back. We’re already 100+, probably wait until the fall.

Nice, i think you will see a nice gain in the fall.

keep us up to date with this build.

The track is on a reservation?

Yes, i will. Something else i have learned is the stage v heads have to be drilled for 1/2" head stud. Tim didn't mention that and the BM block has something smaller, not sure the size, but hope i can still use these heads on the BM block with the smaller stud. It's a constant learning curve with this Hemi stuff, but it is fun.

Yes it is owned by the Gila River Indian tribe and is on Tribal lands.

Makes two of us! Limited track schedule and I don't want to tow to Tucson either!

The other issue is FINDING and buying another enclosed trailer. I'm not going to pay the crazy prices people or businesses are asking. UGH!

No kidding on the trailer! I almost drove to Waco last year to pick one up. Prices have gone nuts since then. Probably should have pulled the trigger.

A little update. Tim has my heads almost ready to ship. Not able to download and send flow sheet, but they flow 442@.700 and 471@.850. Its looking like the cam will be just under .750 lift, maybe .725 after lash.
Used Manley Nextec springs set up at 1.950. Looks like should be 225# on seat and .610@.730 lift. Once i get them, i can cc chambers and send that info off to Best Machine and get the pistons ordered.

Think I may have something.

Impressive looking . How much $ will you have in them,if you don't mind me asking. I know I had about 2800 in my EZ heads.

Waiting on the call from Tim for the final bill, but will be about twice that. The real eye opened is the rocker gear. Looks like another $3500+. Hemi's are very expensive, but i have the money right now to do this and i'm pulling the trigger before i retire.

Whose rocker gear will you be using? And what compression ratio have you decided on?

Those are some impressive heads.

I'm told T&D has the best rockers for street duty, better oiling. 12.5:1. I have 12.5:1 now in my 511 and i don't mind mixing fuel.

I have the FHO Stage V custom head that is o-ringed on the intake side but same flow numbers as shown above. $6500 canadian pesos. Also went with the RB T&D's for another $5000 canadian pesos.
Definitely not cheap. What ever the reason/s for you building a hemi, they are your reason/s so don't worry about what others think or babble on about a wedge being cheaper. I am building a roots blown hemi
because I have always dreamed of doing so and I don't give a sh!t what others think. As soon as the boarder opens up I will be sending my dominators to a vendor I found in the states to have them converted to E85.
Have at her and have fun doing it.

What an awesome engine you will have when done and I think a custom piston will save you trouble later checking p/v rounding sharp edges.Keep up the good work.

Yes, i understand the CP's are that way.

I don't blame you on doing what you want while you can. I put a 511 rb rotating assembly together last spring of course it's on hold, because of the cam shortages, but I'm glad I didn't wait. Good luck with the build.

Thks guys. I am trying to get all the expensive stuff now like the block, heads, crank, rods, pistons. Prices will continue to soar.

Great numbers! I have about 2800 into my victor Jrs.

426 Hemiroid motors = $$$$$

I spoke with Barton about those victors, he said ya can’t get them right now. The KB blocks are too.

Here's one I just finished and dynoed Thursday.

MP water block
MP aluminum hemi heads
Independent shaft rockers
4.3 x 4.15 bore stroke
Tunnel ram 2 E85 wj dominators
Standard cam tunnel with jesel tappets..
Nothing fancy anywhere. Just really good head, manifold, and carb work.
A bigger tunnel would have made a few more stable rpm. but zero need for a 60. 54mm would have been fine.
Point being, it doesn't take a lot of trick stuff to make decent power with a hemi.

Also Ray would win the contest if there was one between him and Tim. No offense intended towards him, just a whole different level of know how.

How much lift and duration? What lifter type?

292 296 ground on 113 with a .480 lobe. rockers are 1.75/1.55

Jesel TS center bar lifters. A solid body jesel would do the same job, I just had these on the shelf. The only real difference is the TS are a little lighter.


Just wanted to put this in this thread, for people that might think you need to break the bank to get decent power. The mopar struggle for power can be endless, and disproportionately expensive beyond point. Making reasonable power that will live, is better with a mope to a certain point too.

There's a whole bunch of expensive and fancy stuff that isn't needed at this level.

Very nice! If you don't mind sharing, what compression ratio and head flow? Thank you.

Before I bought my hemi for my 66 dart, I wanted to build a 700/800 hp street G2 , 1st I was advised to use Arruzza, couldn't get a hold of them(him) then I reached out to Barton, told him this what i wanted ,he wasn't too forth coming with specs or a time frame, I can understand that ,no one knows what parts availability is going to be in 3 -4 months....... I , called FHO and he wouldn't stop talking, kept trying to sell me on something that, yes I could expand on but that wasn't my goal at the time Called Indy and I know it's under new ownership but I didn't like the vibe I was getting.......can't explain it ,it just felt like the guy on the phone thought I was wasting his time. I was going to bite the bullet and by a 528 I saw on E-bay and then have my uncle go thru it , then the TFX I have became available so I bought that and changed the direction of my build.......I do think Barton would of been the best option for my "street build" but I think FHO would of been better for where I want to go know.

I had always wanted to build a Hemi. Having owned many small block and big block engines, though all strictly for street, I was ready for something different. Tim Banning was having a sale on the ported Stage V heads. I called him and he was a huge help. I told him I knew little about building Hemi's. He made some recommendations and didn't make me feel like I was any less important than the customers buying fully built engines. I received the heads and they are just beautiful. He also recommended a custom grind cam that would work well with those heads for street driving. He had this drop shipped directly from Comp Cams. I had a World Products Hemi block already, so it all went off to my engine guy. This 500 ci Hemi made a little over 660 HP and around 640 lb/ft of torque. Runs like a luxury car until the throttle is nailed, then it is a beast.

I would love to know how Dave Dudek makes 1000hp through factory manifolds. Also curious what the dyno curve of his engine looks like

Me too! I bet there's a whole bunch of fancy/expensive/creative stuff inside that motor. It's definitely a bada$$ piece!
Even though everything gets modified and massaged, it's still crazy it makes the power it does w/ what he's forced to use.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/dave-dudeks-840hp-498ci-1969-plymouth-road-runner/

This was one of his previous builds. gives a good idea what some of the tricks are.

I spoke with Dave about a combo he built similar to the 572 i'm getting together. Think he said it should make 900hp.

I'm told T&D will be my best option for rocker. Gonna pushrod oil it. Does Ray Barton have his own rocker design or is he selling T&D's over there?

Barton design, T&D producing

I will have to call and get pricing on his. Any idea what the differences are between the two?

Was about $1k over the Stage V when I built mine. Stage V was back ordered so I ponied up the extra cash.

I was gonna use stage v rockers, but Best told me they don’t think they oil well enough for street.

looks like you are on the right track !!! mine is a indy alumium block ,callies 4.750 crank, oliver rods 7.100, diamond pistons 12.2 to 1 final compression stage v big valve heads flow was 450 at 700 lift ray barton T-D rockers comp roller cam 720 lift intake and 690 ex comp roller lifters milodon gear drive pretty reliable combo it has over 8000 street miles ran the best N/A 9.60 at 142mph on 93 octane and 8.93 on pumpgas at 152mph at 3910 lbs then i went and messed this perfect combo up and changed the cam and compression put a F-2 procharger on it with a FAST efi system LOL

12.2:1 on pump gas? Thats cool. If i go 12.5:1 it shouldn't require much race fuel in the mix. I will use Callies Compstar crank and rods, just got the rods last week. Heads are on the way and once i cc them, will get the CP pistons ordered thru Best.