Timing cover for a roller cam

I've got a voodoo roller coming for my 440, and I'm trying to figure out the front cover issue and dealing with the flex from a steel front cover. bought an Indy cast aluminum one only to find out it won't work with a factory crank dampener. Guess the jokes on me. Oh well, guess i needed some wall art. Any way what are the recommendations for a front cover, and if it's to use the stock piece, does anyone have the measurements of the metal they used to beef up that cover and eliminate flex?

In the past I have placed a roller button in the cam sprocket, set end play to zero between the chain cover and button by either dimpling the cover or pushing the cover back.

I then added a shim/reinforcement that fit between the water pump manifold and the chain cover.

Been down this road just recently. Not sure why you would want to run a stock balancer on a high performance engine with a roller cam in the first place unless it is a very mild hyd. roller for a mild street motor. Having a big roller cam (solid) I,too, opted for the Indy cast aluminum cover to support a cam thrust button. ATI offers a SFI balancer to fit with an Indy cast aluminum timing cover.Also, if you have an aftermarket crankshaft, you would be wise to mike the cranks balancer snout diameter accurately to furnish them with the rest of your relevent info. This is because a lot of aftermarket cranks come with snouts a little bigger in diameter than stock specs.If they build you a balancer, they can hone the ID to the correct size for your crank for about $40, ensuring ease of installation and the correct fit. ATI's tech dept. is very customer oriented and easy to deal with.I am very satisfied with this set-up.Give them a call, fast service,too. Good luck Bill

Factory 440 crank, a warm street motor, nothing radical.

Put the cam in your block along with the timing set and oil pump drive and timing cover then check the end play and go from there, if it has less than .010 forward movement don't worry about it
If more than .010 the fix it
440 Source sells a decent fabricated welded aluminum cover that might work for you
Let us know your results please

Heard the 440 cover wasn't the greatest and wouldn't work with factory water pump housings. Don't I need to worry about the factory steel cover allowing the cam to move and alter timing without reinforcing it?

I had to deal with this problem last year on a customers new engine. He wanted an Indy cast alum cover. First problem was his ATI balancer wouldn't fit (balancer hit the cover). We got the correct offset ATI balancer, then the cam button set out too far (the cover would not reach the block). I had gotten a real nice cam button that I wanted to use from Todd Marsh (I think it was a Diamond brand, 3 bolt cam retainer & button combo, w/ inverted torx head bolts. Real nice part). I elected to machine the face of the cam gear approx .025" to get the clearance that I needed. Worked out fine, but this was WAY harder that it needed to be. Brand X has many different options that just bolt on.
Also, on a different customers RB engine this year, I used a teflon button (made by Comp Cams) and a Milodon steel cover. I had to file the button to fit, not hard, but time consuming..
This really shouldn't be this difficult.

Brian

Here's what we did on our 512 roller.
1/8 " round steel reinforcement welded to stock cover.

Inexpensive and effective, used a roller button inside.
Slight interference fit to back of AL. pump housing, works great to eliminate flex.

Joe

PS, If needed, you can sand a few thousands from the back of the pump housing
to get exactly the interference you desire.

There are a wide array of buttons. I prefer a push-in roller. With a "push in" style button you can use pieces of feeler gauge behind the button to tighten up the end play. You can also use different timing cover gaskets if you need more play (Superformance gaskets are a fair bit thicker than stock)

There is no need for a "bolt on" button - once the cover is on the button can't go anywhere. A bolt-on also won't allow for any shimming behind it.

Teflon, Acetal, Nylon or UHMW works fine and you can make your own out of UHMW - just buy a piece at a local plastics retailer. Avoid aluminum like the plague - they will gall and spew chips into your motor if they contact the timing cover.

If using the stock cover, weld on a 1/8" plate as some have done and drill, tap and install a 1/8 pipe plug offset from center that you and fit a dial indicator through to measure endplay.

You can run very tight end play BUT you don't want zero or less or you run the risk of galling the timing gear/block face.

While on the topic ...

Do NOT use a collar on the distributor shaft to limit motion. On a BB Mopar the cam's rotation keeps the oil pump drive gear seated. It CANNOT come up and alter timing. Any upward movement of the distributor shaft itself also will not alter timing.

If running a bronze oil pump drive gear, get a thin steel shim (a .030 torrington washer) and run that between the drive gear and the bronze bushing. This will prevent wear of either.

I don't like this because it just negates all your work of setting the clearance. And if that 1/8" plate isn't enough to eliminate cam movement I don't know what is !! Keep in mind the ONLY thing that drives the cam forward is the oil pump resistance transferred though the drive gear.

It isn't that difficult, you just bought the wrong parts. I've put a lot of big block engines together with my billet cover and matching button. Indy didn't bother to finish their design. It doesn't fit under a stock water pump, it doesn't fit with some dampers, it doesn't have a TDC pointer, it doesn't have an easy way to set the cam thrust spacing, etc.

Yep, lots of people find out the hard way that the Indy cover doesn't work with factory dampers or with the stock type water pump housing. Did you try the water pump housing or did you not get that far? What about the TDC pointer, did you see that there wasn't one? Sell the Indy cover to a race guy who has an aftermarket damper and an electric water pump. That is what it is designed for. If you want a good cover that is designed to work with a roller cam and fits with stock parts then buy one of mine.

A good number of years ago someone did a short run of cast aluminum covers. They were perfect in every way - fit, cost, etc.. Muscle Motors was selling them as well as a couple other vendors but for some reason they never produced any more. Its a shame.

Stock cover here for several years with no extra support or anything welded on the cover but I run an ISKY rollerized button slightly preloaded to the cover.....

So OP, which cam did you pick??

I am just about at this point now and originally was going to tig on a plate to my front cover... I've been told by a few different people, when running a stock style cover,just to set the endplay, then bolt on the water pump housing and fill the void between the timing cover and the back of the pump housing with a blob of silicone. See what it looks like when I get it put together later.

Lunati Voodoo:

https://www.lunatipower.com/voodoo-retro-fit-hydraulic-roller-cam-chrysler-361-440-270-278.html

Old cam Comp XE268H

Advertised Intake Duration: 268
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 280
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 224
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 230
Intake Valve Lift: 0.477
Exhaust Valve Lift: 0.48
Lobe Separation: 110
Intake Centerline 106



New Cam Lunati 20230711


Advertised Intake Duration: 270
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 278
Intake Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 219
Exhaust Duration at .050 Inch Lift: 227
Intake Valve Lift: 0.515
Exhaust Valve Lift: 0.530
Lobe Separation: 110
Intake Center line: 116

this ^^^^ Birdtracker

Preload is scary, even with the stock cover and roller button. Unless your timing sprocket is a torrington bearing type, you can't get enough lube between the sprocket and block. You need "some" clearance. This I know from first-hand experience.

Bought one of these:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3525tx9

Milodon has been making a "stock " looking TC cover for several years now. 50 bucks and they are much heavier gauge metal than stock. I use them all the time. Todd

What are you using for the timing mark indicator?

Would this be any heavier duty than the stock piece?


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66194/make/chrysler

yes they are heavier. They also sell a pointer for like 7 bucks. They also have the front seal but no gasket.
Todd

You talking about the Mildon or the Proform?

Just me, but if I cannot afford one of the AREngineering timing covers I cannot afford to run a roller cam.

Maybe I'm wrong or crazy, but the stock cover has worked for me. I thought the cam driving the oil pump puts rearward thrust on the cam? I don't know what would make the cam thrust forward (or how hard?), maybe if the oil pump was spinning faster than the cam?

Does that have a torrington bearing on the back side of the cam sprocket ??

Yes it does, that why I chose it.

My apologies I was strictly speaking on the Milodon unit. No info on the Proform. Todd

You are correct. Look at the photo below. A cam rotating clockwise will drive a) the gear down and b) the cam rearward. The button is more of a precaution.

Don't think it's a problem being it's been many, many years street/strip and after the last freshon up 11 years ago, it still looked and worked great. LOTS of wives tales out there.....

I put a lot of Indy covers on,starting way back in the very early 90's.First with fluid dampers and then with Innovators dampers.I just spaced the water pump out 3/4" for fluid dampers and 1" for Innovators and made my own cam buttons.I set them all at .003-.004.

My 575" hemi and my wedge both have solid rollers and stock timing covers. No issues.

On the distributor collar issue...if the gear moving up and down won't affect timing, then why does the timing get much steadier after installing the collar? Is something else going on here? I've done this on both of my own engines and the timing most definitely does not move around nearly much w/ the collar on the distributor from my experience.

Does it "really" get steadier or does it just seem that way 'cause you've just spend an hour messing with the distributor?

Honestly can't answer your question but the facts speak for themselves, the way those gears are cut there's no way that drive gear should rise up under any sort of load. If the cam moves fore or aft then, yes, timing will vary. But not because the drive is moving up or down but because its being rotated slightly from the cam movement.

Those collars were first implemented and marketed (to the best of my knowledge) by Ed Hamburger. Ed was a smallblock guy and I think a lot of guys jumped on those collars thinking they'd help on big blocks. Unless I'm mistaken, on a smallblock the cam rotation WILL drive the oil pump drive upwards and affect timing, hence the collar.

LOL, could be. I could swear the timing got steadier after installing the collar. I remember being skeptical about it, but then being like...hey, that did work. It's been many years ago though.

Beat me too it, it ain’t a CHEVY guys! Waste of time, why do you think they put the torrington bearing behind the gear?

Small blocks drive them into the bushing also....As I've said before when the engine is running you couldn't move that gear if you tried.

I agree - I really like the one I got from you on my 505 with the roller cam and I have one on my 574 race motor now too.

Went with a Milodon. Ordered a timing pointer also, as the description said there wasn't one included. Cover shows up before the pointer, and there one in the package! Now I have an extra pointer.

Check the indicator against true top dead center. DAMHIK
Todd