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Worth doing for bronze drive gear?

Posted By: Uberpube

Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 12:07 AM

[ I whipped this up from scrap I had laying around, think its worth doing to help the distributor drive gear live? I read that the ford guys have an oil gallery plug right next to the gear that they can just drill for oil, they go .040. I made this orifice the same. I might try blowing som clean solvent through it to see what it sprays like.

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Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 12:11 AM

I would have liked a -2 line but couldn't find the fittings.

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Posted By: Diplomat360

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 12:44 AM

On a small block I always put a little oiling hole into the plug that goes in the lifter galley (right at the end so the oil is literally directed at the distributor gear). Can't hurt...
Posted By: Moparteacher

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 02:54 AM

Seems like a lot of work to feed additional oil to the dizzy gear when there's an oil galley that dead ends right next to the intermediate gear. I drill a hole from the front, through the slot at the front of the block, into the end of the left bank lifter galley. I then installed a roll pin as the orifice. It feeds a constant stream directly onto the oil pump drive gear from the left lifter bank. Preliminary priming shows it flows a sufficient amount of oiling. Break-in coming in a few months.
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 03:31 AM

I thought about doing that, but I spent quite bit on machine work salvaging this block and didn't want to risk getting it in the wrong spot. I can reverse this and change it , if it doesn't work out. Didn't take too long to put together, cutting the cover plate on the bandsaw was probably the most work, I kept the original trickflow plate in case I end up getting the melonized gear thats been on backorder.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 06:32 AM

I wouldn't do what your doing twocents
I've put a bunch of motors together for both race only and street and strip that used a good bronze gear with no wear issues on any of them with stock oiling.
My Duster had over 3000 street miles and hundreds of passes shifting at or above 7000 RPM on every run on the same Mopar brand gear shruggy
I have seen other guys that had gears get worn, I'm not sure what they did different than me but they did have wear issues. I do coat the gear and cam gear with regular motor oil sprayed from a old oil can that squirts oil out the tip, I don't soak them or dip them in oil like I do the piston tops and rings shruggy
look closely at the #2 exhaust lobe and how it slings oil off of it from the lifter bores toward the oil pump drive gear scope
Good luck either way
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 10:44 AM

What worries me is now that the lifter are bushed with a smaller oil hole and a lot tighter clearance, I'm not going to have the same flood of oil up there as I would have wirh a stock block. I know most people running rollers are racers or hobby cruisers, this is a bit different, it's a truck that will see everything, probably 15000 miles a year easily.
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 10:57 AM

I drilled the plug on my small block this time around, I don't have enough time on it to say if it worked but it can't hurt. On my last tear down i was surprised to learn that the gear did show some weat after 4500 or so miles. But the bushing in the block was smoked.

I did end up drilling the plug at the end of the galley at a slight angle and I was able to aim it at the gear better after seeing how it sprayed while pre oiling. That is an easy decision to make when drilling a easy to replace plug, it would be tough drilling a block like that.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 01:33 PM

Bronze is used as bushing and gear material because it needs very little lubrication. The "mist" that's thrown around inside a running motor is probably overkill !! Wear on the bronze gear is more likely caused from too much endplay and movement by the cam, all the oil in the world won't help that.
Also keep in mind that "similar" metals do not like to be in friction together, this is why steel gears are used with hydraulic and solid lifter cast cams and bronze gears are used with steel rollers. HOWEVER, most people overlook the bronze bushing under the gear. This is the reason bronze gears wear like crazy on the bottom. A simple fix is a very thin steel shim between the gear and the bushing and that problem is solved. Combine this with limited cam end play and you should virtually eliminate any gear wear.
Posted By: lancer493

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 04:06 PM

Am working in same area right now. Purchased steel thrust washers from Grainger's sized at .937"od x.502"id x.030"thick. It still leaves plenty of clearance to keep MSD distributor from bottoming out. This should prevent wear between the bronze gear and the driveshaft bushing. The OD of the washer is about .060" smaller than the thrust surfaces on the bushing and the gear. Anyone done this with good results. Maybe this would help in the original question in this post??? Not trying to hi-jack this thread. Bill
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 04:13 PM

Doing some reading last night on more of the other engine brands with roller retrofits, it looks like increased oiling is a common point on them all to getting the drive gear to live. Some platforms just have it way easier than others in getting forced fed oil there.
Most of the materials are picked just because of their softness relative to the cam, so the gear wears instead of the cam.
I have a new OEM bushing in the block, did the Chuck Senatore method of using the old drive gear to install it and it ended up perfect.
This morning, the melanized gear I ordered is still backordered past its arrival date, so that might be out the window along with my carpet kit. I did get a tipped roller friendly fuel pump pushrod though. If I run out of time with the body shop, I will keep the bronze and keep the squirter I guess. Covid kills builds...
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 07:10 PM

Quote
Most of the materials are picked just because of their softness relative to the cam, so the gear wears instead of the cam.


This is pure BS. There are thousands of products out there using a combo of bronze and steel gears - not because the bronze is softer. I mean c'mon, does ANYONE want bronze filings in their product ?!?!?
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/02/21 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Stanton
Quote
Most of the materials are picked just because of their softness relative to the cam, so the gear wears instead of the cam.


This is pure BS. There are thousands of products out there using a combo of bronze and steel gears - not because the bronze is softer. I mean c'mon, does ANYONE want bronze filings in their product ?!?!?

I see the combo in industrial machinery quite often, but they are almost always totally flooded in oil. But would you rather have the cam or the gear eaten?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/03/21 12:01 AM

Look at the size differences between Mopar, Ford and GM oil pump drive gears and then think about which one gets worn out quicker, hence all the effort to make THEM last longer work
Flooding or increasing the oil to any of them probably doesn't hurt them, does it work
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/03/21 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Look at the size differences between Mopar, Ford and GM oil pump drive gears and then think about which one gets worn out quicker, hence all the effort to make THEM last longer work
Flooding or increasing the oil to any of them probably doesn't hurt them, does it work


Reading 50 pages of google says that no brand is having any better luck than the other when it comes to the gears and roller cam conversions. Everyone likes the melanized with fewer failures, but also reading that some steel roller cams don't agree with the melonized gears either, have to make a call to the cam company on Monday and see what the deal is with that.
I would have really like to have stayed flat tappet, but lately that looks to be an even bigger minefield than the distributor gear.... I don't know whats up with that, here we are in the modern machining world and 30 some years ago as teenagers we could throw [censored] together with little care and never scrub a cam. shruggy
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/03/21 12:45 AM

Quote
would you rather have the cam or the gear eaten


Oh, so failure is acceptable and we can chose ?!?!?
Posted By: Uberpube

Re: Worth doing for bronze drive gear? - 05/03/21 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by Stanton
Quote
would you rather have the cam or the gear eaten


Oh, so failure is acceptable and we can chose ?!?!?

Google it, a lot of the industry states bronze gears as sacrificial, to plan on replacing it at intervals even with the everything set up correctly.. I would rather not have that either, hence why I am also looking at the melonized gear as permanent solution. My problem is time, I need the engine together before the body shop looses their [censored] on me for not getting the chassis back to them with the driveline it it. .
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