Mid to low 11s on pump gas?

I have a 69 road runner that is going to be a street/strip car that I plan on running on 93 octane pump gas with the addition of a little race fuel at the track. I have no intentions of making it a cruiser...I want it more oriented toward drag strip performance. I have been out of Mopars for the past 12-13 years, at that time I had a 68 road runner that had a 440 recipe that was for a low 12 car. I know that technology had came a long way with cylinder heads, suspension, camshafts, etc since I built that 440 in 2000. I havent decided on a lot yet, but I have decided on Cal Trac Mono leaf springs, Cal Trac bars, Cal Trac rear shocks. The rear end is a Dana 60 with 4.10 gears. The trans will be a 727...no idea on stall speed or converter brand yet. Ill be running a 28-29" tall tire in the rear. I plan on adding torque boxes and frame connectors, and possibly a 6 point bar if the car runs quick enough. Itll have an A12 hood for fresh air.

Since ive been out of this hobby for so long, what would you guys recommend running to get me there? I have access to a 440 and the original 383 thats in the car. I was thinking something along the lines of Trick Flow 240 heads, roller solid camshaft, lightweight pistons, H beam rods, M1 Single plane, 950hp Holley or AED, all MSD ignition, TTI 2" step headers, fuel cell with -8 line to the regulator with -6 going to the float bowls. Will a stock stroke 440 get me to mid 11s and lower if I decided I wanted to go quicker? I really dont want to shift this car much over 62-6400 if that helps.

I appreciate any advice

We do what you're wanting to albeit with a much higher gear, 3.54's, 2800 stall, pump gas and through the mufflers. It is a little bigger at 505".

Really don't need big headers or large fuel line to get it done, either. The TF240's are a good choice.

See my build in the Member Projects and Survivor pics section for more details. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/428197/11.html

Your plans look fine.

I’d suggest building a 505 out of the 440 block for some easy 10’s.

Did just what you want with my 67 wagon but used LD stroker. Like others said go 505 with your 440. No need for a roller cam. I also like the dominator vs the 4150 carb. They can be very streetable, just takes some time to get them squared away.

I'm at 4100lbs plus and have no problem running 11"0s with less head(edelbrock performers)than you are looking at. Good luck and keep us posted.

Your recipe should get you to where you want to be, as long as the chassis is up to the task, with room to spare. My Satellite sits right where you want to be with CNC’d Stealths and a mid-sized solid flat tappet. 28” tires and 4.10’s work real well together, should have you at about 6400 at the stripe depending on your converter.

I would think TF240’s and a solid roller in the range of 250-256 at .050 on the intake side really should have you knocking on the 10 second door, if not barging right through it.

my 65 coronet is 440 tf 240 solid cam 950 carb 430 gear 1150 @ 116

A12, 4.56 axle, 9” converter, stock blueprinted short block and heads with old cheater cam, .440” / .470” hydraulic, through flowmasters.
3725 pounds on the starting line, last time out (2005) 11.28. I drive it on the street as it is.

For you, change the axle ratio, use a good 10” converter, lose some et.
Use a better cam and heads and get more back than you lost.

Boom.

Got a car like that going together in the shop this winter. This one has a 505 pump gas engine with Trick Flow 270 heads and a street roller cam. It made 700 hp on the dyno with a Holley Sniper throttle body. If you know anything about computers or have a buddy who is okay with computers you might consider EFI rather than a carb. The EFI will provide you with a bigger tuning window for a street/strip car.

Since the rotating assembly is pretty much the same price from 440 540 cubes , IMHO the bigger you can go the better. I am betting Fast68 suggested the 505 due to it probably working with an internal oil system. If you are willing to go external pickup, I would chose a 535 combo, 4.5 stroke and 4.350 bore. 10/1 compression, good flowing small port heads and a solid cam similar to the 590 mopar cam. A 950 will leave power on the table. I had good luck with a ported tunnelram with a pair of 800 holley dps on my 535 with 906 heads. Those carbs may not have been ideal, but the point is a big motor needs air! It went 10.50s at 3400 lbs and there was a fair amount wrong with some of my choices in that build 40 years ago. I ran those numbers with 4.10 gears and 33x15 slicks. Shifted at 5700. If i were to do it again it would get fuel injection on that tunnelram.

The M1 will work but if you have the room a Trick Flow intake will work better. Do some research on EFI before you start spending money. EFI will solve a bunch of problems with street/strip cars but it takes money and some knowledge to make it work. Putting the fuel pump in the tank with the regulator simplifies the fuel system. You'll only need one high pressure fuel line and no return lines. Having the EFI system control the ignition timing gives you complete control of the ignition timing which really helps when you have a big cam on the street. Plus, these systems come with data logging built in which helps debug any problems. It is one of the big changes over the past 10 years but is still fairly early in adoption phase.

Build a 500 ci engine. My 69 rr runs 11.0-10.90’s @ 4000# race weight, on pump gas, driving to the track. 10.5:1 400/511, nothing trick, just a full interior, heater working, street car.

At 500 cubes or better, low 11's is no problem....

A stock stroke 440 w/ some Trick Flow 240s and a decent cam will get you mid 11s easily. You just need to know what you have currently (decent crank and rods, etc.) and do the homework to compare what it'll cost to rebuild what you have versus building a stroker. The stroker is great, but will add a bunch of money to the project. A decent carb is way cheaper than going EFI. Reading things nowadays it's amazing these cars ever ran at all w/ carburetors on them, lol.

For what you're wanting, a stock crank, stock LY rods w/ some ARP bolts, and some $450 Wiseco Pro True Street pistons will work just fine. I'd get Dwayne to spec you a cam...but even a shelf hydraulic flat tappet (something comparable to the old MP 509/292) will work. Some Trick Flow 240s, a decent single plane manifold, 850 holley, etc.

Not knocking anyone's recommendations thus far, but mid 11s can be done cheap. You'll have $2500+ in just the stroker kit (if buying new parts). You should be able to do a stock style rotating assembly w/ a freshly turned stock crank, resized stock rods, and new pistons for $1k or so.

I agree with Chip on this. Stock stroke 440 w decent pistons and rods, TF 240's and a mild solid flat tappet or even HFT, 850 holley, 4.10 and 3500 stall should slam dunk into the mid 11's. A 505 will do it easier if money isnt an issue, but if mid 11's is your goal, stroker is not necessary.

thats what my car goes

It is always better to have more power than you need to meet your goals to start with, you can always add the roll bar later

If you read all the stuff the OP is already planing on(for both the engine and the car)....... adding the 4.25 crank and 50+ cubes is a no brainer.

If there’s any chance an upgrade to the stroker would be a part of the future plans, by far the cheapest point in time to make that upgrade is........ when the motor is built the first time around.

And then there’s always:


The frequency of builds based on ET’s at the track....... where the owner doesn’t end up wanting to go quicker........ is almost zero.

Well, I guess he didn't mention a budget...so spend away.

My small , 440RB , 10.75:1 , 9 1/2" 5000 stall , 4.1 gear , 28" Pro Bracket radial , solid flat tappett , 0.520 lift / 258@050 , CNC stealths ,HP1000 holley , Victor 440 ,1 7/8 hooker headers+ exhaust to diff , pump gas . Best of 10.88@125ish mostly 10.90s. 3690lbs 68 Satellite .
Same short motor , TF270 , Super Victor , 4500 1050 , 30" Pro bracket radial , 6000 stall *" , 10.70@127ish.
Went to 2" Dougs D452 with the 505 and used them on the 440/TF270 motor .
505RB with 11:1 , same top end as 440 (Stealth / HP1000) , solid flat tappet .600 nett lift 272@050 ,10.50@127ish , 28" radial
505 with TF270, 4500 etc 10.25@129ish
Then split block

Heck i went 11.20(?) with a 509 cam in that 440

This is my daily driver , in fact i am driving it interstate in a couple weeks to race . 11/12 hrs 1050kilometers(650 miles) each way

Tex

Yes, your basic combo will get you there. Don't be afraid of some converter stall speed to improve track performance, ~3800-4200 rpm.
But since you are putting new H-beam rods and good pistons in the build, adding the 4.250" stroke crankshaft won't cost much more. Then you have a base for a 10 second "street" car.
With the stroker, I would suggest the Trick Flow 270 vs the 240 heads. Now finding a new pair of Trick Flow heads right now will be tough...

My budget is about 10k. Ive really enjoyed all the replies, theyve been helpful. I like the idea of fuel injection, but Im old school and like carburetors. Ive narrowed my converter choices to Dynamic or ATI...they seem to be very well thought of after reading about them. Can I run 11.0:1 compression with aluminum heads? I plan on buying new pistons and h beam rods...so adding a new crank wont add a lot of cost. If I go with a solid lifter flat tappet cam...what specs should I be considering?...what about solid roller cam specs? Thank you again for the replies.

I built a guy a car a few years ago, a 69 belvedere, never weighed it, but it had full interior. 440, with a 496 440 source stroker kit, flat top pistons, 906 heads I hand ported, 1 7/8 headers, .590 lift Howards camshaft, don't remember the exact specs but it was around 240 @.50 duration, 108 center, 1050 dominator with a single plane intake, cheap ebay 3,000 stall converter, 4.30 gears, ran on pump gas, ran 7.00 all day long in the 1/8 mile, took it to a 1/4 mile track, it ran a 10.90 off the trailer, they told him to take it home no roll bar. He put a roll bar in it and ran it for several seasons before selling, he drove it on the street every now and then.

My old 440-6 70 Charger went 11.28 @ almost 122 on 93. I did have a Snow Performance Water/Meth injection kit. (washer fluid). 11.25:1 stock stroke 440 w/ worked stage VI heads, 588 solid roller cam, stock 6 pack.

505 vs 440 is mostly gonna be a big increase in TQ with just a little HP increase, TQ breaks parts, you get to a point where you can easily make the power with good modern top end stuff to run what you want and any more TQ means upgrading from 8 3/4 to dana bigger tires higher gears (put more stress on trans and driveshaft u joints...) bottom line is it is just so easy now days to run low 11s with even a stock 440 short block and carefully selected modern heads and cam that it is almost not worth bothering with the extra cubes. Don't get me wrong, I love big TQ but there is a point where it is just not much point, on the street a 440 can easily make 500lbs tq and make hooking up nearly impossible already and at the track when it does hook you got to upgrade lots of stuff to keep it from breaking stuff, are you u-joints gonna handle 1300LBS plus TQ? Driveshaft? Trans output shaft? Can your input shaft handle 600lbs?

For me a 8 3/4 in a heavy B body is already a disaster waiting to happen whether a 440 or 505. The big TQ has the benefits of lower shift points , and engine longevity. I shift at 5400 in the 1/8 and run 7.0s all day running 28 x 9 MT PBR tires. When I run the 1/4 I switch to Hoosier 29.5 x 9 bias ply. Shift at 5500 and cross the line at 5900 running 11.0s. On a big car it takes a lot of TQ to get off the line.

Another benefit I found with my combo is significantly more vaccume. I could have left power brakes on my combo. I may still switch back. Now my brother that has the same cam, heads but with a 440 barely has enough vaccume for his PB. He also runs .15 slower at 400lbs less weight.

OP already has a Dana and he is already going thru the engine so a stroker is almost a no brainer for him. I would keep the compression down to 10.0 max just to make it easier to drive on the street. With a stroker and good heads there is no reason to push the limit on compression ratio. The last street/strip engine I did was 9.8 compression with 240 heads and it made over 600/600 with a small hyd roller cam. With a solid roller cam you can move that up to the 625 or 650 range and still be very safe with pump gas and have enough torque to move a fully loaded B body down the track in 11's or high 10's.

I am currently working toward the same goals - street legal, just around town cruising, and a mid to low 11 second time slip. In doing the math to go 11.50 at 3350lbs, it says I needed 400hp on the ground, so roughly 500 at the crank. A little browsing around here, and I stumbled across Fast68's, write-up on a 500hp 383. He made it look easy-cam, intake, carb, headers, an unported 906 and walla 500hp. Now, I know the devil is in the details but still at least hitting 450-475 should be doable and you know what it is. I found a 383 shortblock in good shape on the cheap. After talking with Fast68 and getting him to send me a cam, I threw on a Victor 383, a 750 Demon and some headers and it went 11.47/119 right off the trailer. I have played with intakes and carbs this past season and it now goes 11.30 in not so good air. To get the good time slips with it you will need the suspension dialed which you should be able to do with the Caltracs and a well matched converter (I've had good results with PTC). So if the bottom end of that 383 is in good shape it may be an option if you are around 3,500lbs, if it needs any work at the machine shop, then you are money ahead by going ahead with the 500+ cubic inch route.

Save some of us some time - how do we find the post on Fast’s success story.

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/26.html

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/25.html

505 cubes
10.96 compression
440-1 CNC 325
M1 intake
1000 4150 AED
.600 Comp flat tappet
70-71 Hemi oil pan
2” TTI step headers, 3” exhaust out the back bumper.

3.54 gear
8” convertor
FMVB - A&A transmission
3,930 pounds

93 Sunoco
Chrome box
Belt driven water pump
Lincoln Mark VII fan
Mallory 140 fuel pump
6 point chromemoly bar
Pinion snubber, XHD springs
Viking DBL adjustable-rear
Gas shock-front
9x28 M/T Pro Bracket Radial

Shift
1) 6300
2) 6200
Stripe) 6200

Foot break @ 2,000

Best of 10.89 @ 123
Does 10.90’s in the dead of summer

Put over 1,500 miles on it last year.
Cruises @ 3,300 rpm @ 68 mph on the highway

Cubes can help

My leak springs are bent......so i’m Not sure the power is doing that but I don’t think the weight helps

^ dude, 3.54 gear with a 28" tire shows almost 78mph on an rpm calculator.
is your torque converter making you lose 10mph at cruise?

and 6200rpm shows 145mph...

Love this 67 RT!! Now thats a street car

Yep. That's a cool machine right there!

10.15 @ 133 on my first shake down pass on 92 octane. 605 hemi, 11:1, CNC Indy SR Heads, 690/670 @ 280/288. Full exhaust, pro street car. I think there is a 9 in it, but my local track is run by a bunch of "mask-holes" and I won't go back until the Chyna Flu scamdemic is over.

https://rumble.com/vb4x3j-race-1-wild-hors-pass-msp-arizona.html

Untitled by Greg Ault, on Flickr

I have hit 10.70's @ 125 in my 63 Sport Fury with a mild basic stroker. Its a 493 as I used the 4.15 crank in the 440 block. Has D-dished pistons for 10.6 comp with the basic Indy EZ heads. I use the Indy dual plane intake and a Holley 850 double pumper. Cam is a solid flat tappet from Dwayne Porter ( Fast 68 ) and it is .585 & .592 lift with 264 & 270 @ .050 and a 110 LSA. Its really nothing fancy as I built good quench in it and I drive and race it on 93 pump. Car weighs 3700 with out me as its a 727 with a Dynamic 9.5 converter and 4.30's with a 30" tire. I usually drive it the 45 miles to the track and race just as I drive it through the full exh. Good luck with yours as it sounds like a nice solid build. Ron

Thats a nice combo Ron and assuming thats 3900@the line we are talking around 620fwhp@125mph I ran 10.71@125 in the '69 car NA at just 3300 all in, 525fwhp, 906 headed 440, .650"sft 290@.050 back in 1990.

I have ran a .060 440 with a mildly ported set of Indy 440-1 by Porter racing heads (fast68plymouth )
11to 1 compression on 91 octane 10% ethynol pump gas only no additives
Comp roller 266@.050 .640 lift w1.5 rockers
Indy single plane with a 1050 dominator
Ross flat top pistons Manley H beam rods
TTI 2 1/8 headers 3800 lb 1965 coronet
4.88 gear 5700 stall 8inch converter low gear 727 trans by Ultimate transmission
30x9x15 Hoosier radial drag slick
10.30 et @130 mph 1.40 60ft times
Shift at about 7200
Also ran this car / engine combo with a Jericho 4 speed
Same et with about 1 mph faster
The key in my opinion is the guy that does the heads and cam choice ! (Fast68) Porter racing heads !!

nice car

Your plan will work out just fine, and what you're shooting for is a very solid 11 second kind of a street/strip deal.

My '69 GTX is a getting little bit dated but still runs well and is along the same lines.

451ci (400 B engine based, but really close enough to a .055 or .060 over 440 for comparison sake)
10.75:1
RPM heads, minor prep (backcut valves, blended port openings slightly)
PRH/Comp .630/262-266 solid roller
Victor 383 intake prepped at home, 1000/4150 race demon
2" supercomps/mufflers/X pipe exhaust I fabbed in my Dad's driveway

The converter I have is somewhat "wrong" for the combination, it was originally made for a 572 Wedge
A body race application, and is too tight for mine for racing but it drives really nice on the street so I've left it alone.

4.10 Dana with a Power Lock.

Most of the time it went 11.20s and 11.30s around 120.
11.0 @ 123 best ever (three times same day) and for whatever reason I haven't been able to do it again.

Peak power rpm is about 6200/chassis dyno, pretty close to what you were looking for.

Later I tried a 950 Quick Fuel Brawler and it ran about the same ET as before
but feels quite a bit snappier on the street. Only had it to the track once with that carb
and it went 7.15, 7.16, 7.17, 7.17 that day (so basically 11-teens to 20s).

TBH the only outdated item you're thinking about is the M1, and it's still a pretty darn good piece.
I'm sure a TFS or prepped Victor would pick up a little bit but nothing earth shattering.



Below is an old picture...Old time Moparts people will recognize it from many years ago.....
It wasn't long after this shot we had to intall a roll bar. You will too! Good luck

Hello zippy how did those 2in super comp headers fit using your low deck block.... Thanks

Loving this thread!

A genuine effort to 'keep in real' in this mad, mad world lol.
You can run an 11.50 all day long with a 440ci and drive it home, that has never changed...

So now we have the 'problem' of unlimited choice!
I like the 'less is more' kinda deal myself.

I have a 71 GTX that hopefully one-day-soon I can run in UK Superstock.
I will be 'keeping it real' unlike some of the current Superstocks with 572 KB hemi's...

11.50 is my aim with a 451ci motor with iron heads probably 452's and an iron sixpack.
Yep thats 'keeping it real' in my 'booky wook' lol...

ps I have a 512ci with Indy heads as a back-up, just in case...

Hello zippy how did those 2in super comp headers fit using your low deck block.... Thanks [/quote]

The right side was ok, the left side had one tube making contact with the torsion bar, not super hard to resolve....that's the only deficiency I can remember.
I changed a few things besides that on them, worked on the flanges a little bit and had them coated. They've been installed on the car for nearly 20 years.

The car is up on the hoist with about 1/3 of the sheetmetal cut off of it right now, but I might be able to get a picture or two if it will help you. Let me know.
------------------

Edit, ok bad memory, both sides had torsion bar contact on one tube. separate post with pics to help 67. Not super difficult to correct, not super easy either, but at 1/3 the price of tti no problem.

This is one of my favorite Moparts cars of all time! Classic Mopar muscle/street brawler. Zippy, you nailed this combo

X2!

I'm feeling the love!

Thank you Gentlemen.

I always felt it had a 10 in it, but over time I began to believe "maybe not in this car, with me attempting/failing to tune the chassis".
Once I got to that point I just decided to enjoy it.

You don't need anything fancy for 11 sec

446ci
stock block
stock cast crank
stock LY rods
cast .030" pistons
452 heads, decks milled, no valve job
comp 252/260 flat tappet cam
1.6 speedmaster rocker arms
edelbrock rpm intake
1050 dominator
1.75" to 3.5"headers, bullet mufflers
727
4.56
3700-3750lbs truck

1.58 60'
11.72 @ 111mph

I think it will go 11.4-11.5

Well you will have exactly what we are running in our street driven to the track and home on full exhausts '69RR, caltracs/mono's, Dana 4.10, 29"tyres, we run a street 3600-4200 converter and we run an old 950HP carb, 2.1/8" TTI's but thats cos we run a mild street 10:1cr 589ci wedge motor we picked up all built/dyno'd to a best of 10.3@3800lbs. Your obviously not going to do that for 10k, to go 11.45'@117 ish you need an honest 500hp, so 550 on a dyno, that can be done with a 440 with 240's and an sft cam or even eddys but as you are going for rods/pistons you could build a stroker for not a lhuge amount more cost but its not necessary as a lot have eluded to in this post, but as racers we all want to go faster. Have a look at the TF 446ci build they did and supposedly got 620hp@10.5:1 with a hyd. roller, 247@.050 .600", 950 carb, 240's etc.

Really depends on what your aim is after you've blitzed the mid to low 11 sec brkt. The bigger the motor you build the more torque it will have of course and won't be so much fun on the street as you won't be able to get into it without annihilating the tyres all the time unless you run DOT race tyres. That TF240 build could get you in the 10.7's@124 at around the 6300 trap rpm with 4.10/29" tyre if that dyno no. was anywhere correct, something to think about on those lines perhaps, a lot of options with lots of different opinions, you just gotta realize what your real goal is and then build it to achieve that.