511/TrickFlow dyno Updates.

I have a truth teller session scheduled for Wednesday 10th. Feel free to post your guesses and two cents. I’ll be posting the results that afternoon. Here’s the combo.

Low deck
4.25 source crank
Mahle 1.12ch flat top-metric ring pack
6.7 scat rods
11.6 compression ratio
265/269 .660/.652 108lsa installed at 105
1.6 Mancini rockers. Final lift will be .683/.675
Untouched TF 270 heads
Deep port matched Indy 400-2 and a little plenum work
1050/4150 pro form carb
TTI 2 to 2 1/8 step headers
7 qt source pan 1/2 pickup
No Vacuum pump. No tricks. No gas ported pistons, no dry sump.
Just a basic motor anybody can replicate.
What are your thoughts and guesses?
I’d like 1.4hp ci, but my dyno operator said he hasn’t seen it on a combo that wasn’t race gas and this simple.
I’ll be happy if it makes 675.

Without any calculations, I believe around 700 hp is realistic.
I am thinking the Indy intake with port match to MW gasket will be larger than the TF 270 head opening. That will trip up the flow somewhat.
I look forward to the results, including the max hp RPM.

Jim,
The ports match up great, but it wasn’t without a lot of work. The ports were smaller but the casting sucked. It had to be filled in with quite a bit of spool weld and reshaped. A few ports were way out of alignment to the point the intake gasket hung into the ports.

Depending on how good that carb does with tuning you should be able to make close to 700 HP on Oregon pump swill, what brand engine dyno and has it been calibrated recently ?
Ignition timing, spark plug heat range and valve lash are all items that are tunable that can help you get the most out of your parts
Have fun

Cab,
Plugs are NGK #8 heat range. I do plan to mix for a bit more octane to be safe.

Here’s the plenum work

There’s the “every dyno is different” thing to factor in, but if I had it here I’d be fully expecting it to make 700+.

I'll guess 680-690hp, with that compression ration. Sounds like a nice combo.

Duane the last motor I put on this dyno you guess was almost right on for hp and tq. I made just a little more tq with a spacer. But without your guess was almost exact.

MarkZ’s 505........ a little less cam, a little less compression, a few less cubes......on the BES dyno:

Duane those numbers are very impressive. For some reason I don’t want to get too optimistic. He shared his dyno sheets with me. Very broad and impressive power curve for sure. I’m curious about the correction numbers.

I like your combo, and believe you will be close to your 1.4 per cui.. With the work on your intake and that stroke I think torque will be over 700.

I saw nothing in the weather data for Marks sheets that seemed out of line at all for that region of the country, at that time of year.

Correction factor seemed in line to me.

For your combo...... over 500”, good CR, heads that flow 350+, big intake, correctly sized headers, adequate lift and duration.........700hp...... it’s just not that hard to get there.

Like I said, if I had it here, I’d absolutely be expecting it to break 700.

Thank you for the replies so far. I did build it with 700 in mind and a flat torque curve. 700 is what I want.
My combo is extremely similar to marks528 combo. If I get similar results I will be beyond extatic.
I still have to swap to 1.6s as I started with 1.5 and changed my mind.

I reckon 719hp, we have a bigger motor +78ci but only @10:1cr, -13 heads that prob do not flow as much as your 270's at our 625" and 260/270@.050 s/roller with a 440-2, an old 950HP and 2.18" TTI's and we made 694hp on the dyno which is just 1.18hp/ci.

I wouldn't be concerned with a number. That said, it should make good power as long as the carb and ignition are capable.

Depending on the actual valve events, you have the makings of a great motor with a broad power curve.

Peak numbers are for magazine headlines and Internet racing. If it makes better avg numbers that will make for a much better street driving experience ... unless it was going in a Daytona or other featherweight.

On Edit: Best of success and have fun!

All of your responses make me more optimistic. I am just surprised these heads are that capable without going too crazy. I’m guessing it’s the excellent mid lift numbers that help this head to perform?!

Sounds fun. Why the short 6.7 rod length? Low deck? How would the motor respond to a 7.1 rod. I ask because the differences in rod length/rod ratio are not so clear in my mind. It would be nice to hear some info on the choices.

Good looking combo except I'd put a 1050 Dommy on there and #8's are WAY too cold imo.....

it's all he can fit in a low deck. the CH on the piston is already only 1.12"

That’s correct. The standard is a 6.535 rod. I chose a longer rod and shorter piston.
Dom, I know you would go dominator lol. I plan to do a lot of street driving and prefer a power valve.
This carb has worked well for me. I thought about trying one on the dyno but I don’t think I’ll end up doing so since I don’t plan to run one.

The dyno shop might have a dyno mule 4500 and adapter on hand if you have time and feel like seeing “what if”?

It’s not always magic.

I've run a half dozen or so 270 head combos on the dyno and they have all made more than 700 hp. Some of them with less compression and a smaller cam than what you are using. If everything else is equal in your build then I'd expect 720 hp from what you have but it always depends on the details. The carb has to be right on as does the timing and the plugs and lots of other little details.

G3 392 has 1.21", Just for the sake of comparison

Who says a p/v isn't in Dommys silly......A friend goes 7.80 in the 1/4 w/a p/v in his carb......Unless the adapter and manifold are blended, I don't expect crazy gains but if you did, you'd be amazed but then I'd go straight to a Dommy manifold w/a spacer.....

Dom, I did not know that. Maybe one of these days I’ll talk to an expert 😄.

Ray Meyers on here one Drag Week with a 1050 Dommy carb I did and got up to 16 mpg's.......

Good stuff...let us know how it does on the dyno. Personally, I'd tickle the runner dividers floor transition with a bigger radius...might help fuel distribution.

Ok guys. First pull were at 723hp@6100 and 690tq. That’s at 34 timing and 1” spacer and a 950 carb.

This is the 2nd pull. 36 timing 1” spacer. 950 carb.
729hp 680tq.

Try 32 degrees. Sometimes those TF heads like less timing.

Very nice!

I guess he has now!!

Stopped at 743hp@6100 and 699.9tq. I’ll give more details when I get home.
Didn’t try more than the 950 carb. It needed more carburetor badly.

Nice!!

740 is starting to get serious. A Dominator on a 400-3 intake would pick it up another 20 or so. We'll be running a very similar low deck 512 on the dyno soon with a 400-3 intake and a 4500 bolt pattern Holley Sniper. Expecting 750 hp from it.

X2!!

Can’t figure out how to load pics or videos.
AndyF, I have read your articles and others and didn’t want to get too optimistic. But these heads really do make serious power.
There was easily more In it. Vacuum through the carb was 1.9” and afr was 13.5. Through mufflers. I decided to stop there since I won’t be using that carb anyways. 2” spacer gained 5hp over the 1”. 38 timing over 36 only gained 1hp. BSFC was very impressive down into the 300s. Didn’t mess with valve lash or anything other than timing and spacers. Last run we cooled it down to 120 degrees.. Thats when
we made 743hp@6100 and 700tq@5000

Nice numbers. What type of fuel did you run it on???

Harley we ran it on 98 octane just for safe measure. Although dynamic compression is only 8.5 so it may run. Just fine on pump premium.

That's awesome! Congrats!

Interesting that your torque peak is a bit higher rpm than mine. My motor was a bit more square - hp/torque being almost equal.

I wonder if it’s the bigger intake. Everything else in our combos are super similar. I did switch to a 1.6 rocker which gave me a few more degrees yet and .683 net lift.

Yes you definitely do and there's another who knows how much lurking there. I never get why guys use the baby carbs on motors like yours unless it's a heavy turd......GREAT numbers....

I ran a 337/adapter vs a 440-2/adapter on a 540 years ago.
With the Indy intake the tq peaked at a slightly higher rpm.

On that motor, there was a pretty big disparity in HP between the manifolds, with the 440-2 combo showing 40cfm more air being used at 6500rpm.

However, on a milder 572 street/strip build, tested with the same 4150 carb and spacer, the difference between a 337 and a 440-2 wasn’t as big(15hp), and it didn’t really change where the peaks occurred.

At the very bottom of the pull(3800), the 337 was up almost 30ft/lbs.

When writing a reply, Below "Post Options" on the left is the "Attachment Manager".
A picture of the dyno sheet would be nice.

Congrats on the number. I said 700 would be easy; but you went well past that.

Man, that is impressive. I have a 512 with less compression, less cylinder head, less cam, TF intake, 950 Thumper, 1 7/8 headers that is probably 115 horsepower down from yours.(491 at the tire. 625 crank? maybe?) I've been kicking around the idea of upgrading the top end; heads, cam, intake, Dominator, headers, and this dyno session makes it a lot harder to NOT do it. Although I'm still weighing how it would act in a heavy car with a clutch and a 3.54 gear.

Jim my problem is it’s saying my files are too large. I’m not sure how to change that. I’ll be getting the sheets today and will do my best to post what I can

Thumper I’ll be getting a hold of you soon. I may still see what you can do with this 1050/4150. From 5500 up the 950 was pulling 1.9”
So it needs more carburetor badly. I’m sure a dominator would easily push it to 760hp.

What I do to downsize a file on my phone is email it to myself, and choose one of the smaller size options before I hit “send”.
Then use the new smaller version to post.

Where exactly was this reading being taken from?

Was there an air turbine being used?

Duane I believe it was the back of the carb. He has a air hat but doesn’t use it.

I think I have the the picture posting figured out.

Raw numbers

Ok guys hopefully this satisfies you. I may have missed a page or two so let me know if there’s anything else you’d like to see.

This should be a little easier to see.

Excellent result, our 589 pulled the same 1.9>2.0@5900>6000 with a 950HP, we made max power @only 5500 at 33 deg total and NGK 7's although it pulled to 5900 only losing 2hp. I would go straight to a Thumper BLP Dom with yours with that CR/cam, wouldn't mess with that 4150 if you have room under hood with a spacer and if you got any money left

😂 I may have to wait a few paychecks. And I am not sure what will fit under a fiberglass six pack hood on a cuda. I also have to figure out clutch and rear, possibly a cage, driveline, wilwood front brake kit, and more I’m sure 🤣. But I’ll get there as quickly as I can.

Very nice results. I bet that put a smile on your face. The torque curve is nice and flat too. Looks like it might be able to be fattened up a touch, but who knows. I have a 400-3 that i hand ported the plenum for sale. If your interested PM me.

OR a 1000+ cfm 4150......

That’s why I didn’t bother jetting it up a touch to get more out of it. I knew it needed more carburetor so there was no point seeing how much more I could get with jet changes.
Can you pm me your number dom?!

I used a 1050AN from Quick Fuel for my 470. It worked just fine up past 750 hp. Ran great right out of the box.

Thank you Andy. I’d like to stay with my 1050/4150 especially since I don’t know if I have room for 2” spacer.
MoparDave more than a smile. I am still kind of in shock that it did that well. So is the dyno operator that just finished a chev 540 that made 50hp less and 100ft lbs less. He thought this engine would make 650 or so on his dyno 🤣.
After the first pull he said “son of a bitc#”. That can’t be right 🤣.

Is that a Super Flow or what brand?
Dyno numbers are just that, a useful number(up or down) to compare changes made on THAT DYNO that DAY
I'm glad to see your test results posted, I haven't use a set of the Trick Flow heads yet, either size
I did see 50 HP difference from a set of Indy SR M.W. compared to a set of CNC ported 440-1 with the same intake. same carb with same jetting, same compression ratio on the same short block with no other changes except the heads From 727 HP up to 775 HP

My numbers on the bottom of my post......760-900-3895....

And I tried that carb on my Dart and it was a mess down low and couldn't even do a burnout no joke. This is why you guys that shoot 4 and post peak numbers don't get it in a street/strip car.....Peak numbers usually mean crappy too rich down low street reality....

Damn dude... Next time you need something like that bring it over and I'll Tig it for you. I'm right behind IWSI on W. 11th.

Great #s by the way. Did you assemble the short block?

The 1050 in my picture is a 4150. Did you run your 1050/4150 on the dyno?

We tried but it was so lean at idle it was reading 19.5 on the widebands. I expected it to work since it ran great 4 months ago and I took it apart and cleaned everything and set everything back to out of box settings. We were only able to run the dyno operators 950 Holley.

[quote=Thumperdart]And I tried that carb on my Dart and it was a mess down low and couldn't even do a burnout no joke. This is why you guys that shoot 4 and post peak numbers don't get it in a street/strip car.....Peak numbers usually mean crappy too rich down low street reality.... [/quote

What do you mean you guys 🤷‍♀️Lol. My engine doesn’t have a big fat power curve by accident.
I’ve ran this carb and it’s ran great in the past. And went 9.7s on a buddies car.
Something went wrong from the time it sat and I took it apart. I’ll be sending it out to you before trying it again.
I’m sure it’s something simple but I will also let you work your magic. 👍😊

I did assemble the engine and came up with the combo myself, but with plenty of research and questions.
Springers did the machine work on the block.

Cab, yes it’s a super flow but that’s all I can tell you. I realize that a dyno is just a tuning tool. But I can promise you the numbers are very real off this dyno. And usually disappointing.

That is a bummer, it is always nice to dial in your own carb on the dyno so you're ready to run. But at least you found out your carb had a problem before you used it on your engine. You could've hurt the engine with that carb. Must be plugged up somewhere for it to be that lean.

The 80 degree air temp doesn't seem correct so that is inflating the numbers a little bit. This time of year the air temp is in the 40's or 50's. He must have his temp gauge mounted somewhere in a heated room since it doesn't vary during the pull. Usually the dyno room is well ventilated so during a pull the air temp will drop down to be close to the outside temp since so much fresh air is pulled in.

Andy,
I was pretty bummed about my carb but at the same time beyond satisfied.
There was no air hat the air was from in the room.
The first pulls the air started at 63 degrees.

I would like to test and tune with that humidity sometime. Cheese and rice that would be FUN. lol 😂

If anybody would like to duplicate this build or go similar here is the cam card. I installed the cam at 105, although it appears it could have been put in at 107-108 just fine and gained a few hp up top.

A comment from the peanut gallery........

You’re at the dyno....... which imo is about the best place there is to try and get a carb(in this case, your own carb) sorted out.

I would have made one or two pulls with the shop carb to establish a baseline for power and fuel flow........ then started trying to get your own carb sorted out.

Making sure the carb tune is close(safe enough to use) is the main thing I use the dyno for.

Even if you weren’t 100% successful getting your carb dialed in...... you’d have had more data to go by for future mods/tweaking.

I’ve only used a 4150/1050 once. It went on a hot street 10.5:1 572 with EZ heads.
It was the QFT Q-1050 with downleg boosters.
I think we ended up making one jet change on the dyno.
Nice fuel curve, good throttle response. Owner says it runs great on the street.

Edit- I just looked at the sheets...... we made the baseline runs with my old Mighty Demon 850 downleg, which was working very nicely on that motor.
With the QFT Q-1050, the jets were actually quite a bit smaller than what was being used in the MD850.

There was only a few tq/hp difference between the two carbs, but you have to keep in mind there isn’t anything even close to a 200cfm spread between those two carbs.
The MD 850 is 1.56v x 1.750
The QFT 1050 is 1.59v x 1.750

On the flow bench they’re probably within 25-30cfm.

Thank you Duane,
I was curious about actual flow and baseplate/Venturi size. There can’t be much difference at all in flow there. My current issue is that I need to get the hood I’m going to use and see if 2” adapter is going to fit.
I was really bummed about not getting my carb dialed. But dyno time isn’t free and I didn’t want to run the bill up. Looking back I should of just stopped right there and figured it out. We did try a few things to make it work but were unsuccessful.

I didn’t see if you mentioned exactly which 950 the dyno shop has, but there are at least 3 different sizes of “950’s”, one of which is actually slightly bigger than the QFT Q-1050.
The Holley XP950 is 1.600v x 1.750.

I had a customer that I prepped some heads for and sold him a cam, who had bought one of those.
It had some major issues on the dyno. They made a bunch of changes and pulls with it....... but it had some manufacturing defects that weren’t going to be tuned out.

I was kinda surprised the dyno operator didn’t tell him it wasn’t going to be able to be fixed with tuning changes.

I’ve run into that scenario a few times, where there are problems with the carb that air bleeds and jets won’t solve.

Just an observation about that cam.....my friend runs a comp solid roller with the same 4311B lobe on the exhaust. Strange that comp speced his lash at .018” for his vs. your .022”. Any idea on that, Dwayne? Not sure i understand that, being they are the same exact lobe. His is a rb 505 at 11:1 comp.


Really nice work on that combo and great job on assembling that! Results show.

The lash setting is not etched in stone.
It can be used to fine tune a combo.

On builds that will see more street duty, I will often tell them to show a slightly tighter lash setting, since running them on the tighter side is easier on the lifters.

And then....... sometimes the card is just wrong.
I had a solid roller sent to a customer one time, he called to question the lash.
It was listed as “HYD”.

That makes sense Dwayne. Thanks for clarifying. I had no idea that sometimes the eng combo designer will sometimes specify that based on intended usage. I thought it was necessary based on the lobe design and profile “only”. Good to know.

There is a design lash point for the lobe family, but for a multitude of reasons, that may or may not end up being the overall best lash to be running on a given combo.

Tighter lash usually softens the “hit” to the lifter, which helps with lifter life, but isn’t always best for power.
Running the lash fairly loose can really speed up the valve action off the seat, and when the cam is on the big side can be an effective tuning tool to make some more power........but that can lead to some wear and tear issues if run like that long term.

Brad H sent me the 4150 to try Andy and it was a mess and I put my normal tune in it and it was not happy till after 4000r's and up.....Plus 4150's don't belong on BB like mine and others making decent power in my world and I put my Dommy back on and all good. I think Brad dyno'ed it as well iirs and it had issues....

Wasn't referring to you in particular and send me pics of what it is first that you'd like me to check out and we'll go from there.....

My recollection of that carb is it was a Holley XP950 that had annular boosters installed by Mark W(but I may not be remembering that correctly).

Whatever that carb actually was.......It did indeed still have issues on the dyno(very rich at part throttle....... very lean at WOT).

He had brought several carbs to try, that being one of them.
All but one showed that same tendency. Very rich at part throttle, very lean at WOT....... even with quite large jets(which just made the part throttle issue worse).
I had brought my HP950 dyno mule along(as a “just in case”) and after we were done with his carbs(and it was clear they were going to take some fairly substantial reworking to get “right”, we bolted my carb on........ more or less to verify that the issues we were seeing were in fact related to the carbs themselves.

My dyno carb worked just as it always did. Fine at part throttle, and required no jet changes for normal A/F ratios at WOT.
There was nothing with the engine combo that was presenting some unusual demand that the carbs were having trouble dealing with....... the basic carb calibrations just were way off..... simple as that.

That's the one and if that's the case I'm not going to take your $$ and waste either of our time......let's put you in a 20th century REAL carb of billet structure.....

Thumper i have always liked the way you do business. Birdtracker

So I have a 1000 cfm carb that I would like to use on my 470 tf 270 headed build street strip car , Dom are you thinking it's not a good match

Duane the dyno carb was just a Holley classic 950 that’s chrome. I don’t know the exact number but I could get it.

Appreciate that......

Depends on the whole combo and your goals......

I figured out how to post the dyno video to YouTube

https://youtu.be/lP_ljPn-_Y4