Moparts

Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one?

Posted By: 440gtx6

Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/28/21 02:30 AM

Does anyone here have any experience with these?
From what I've been told, they're not really suited for drag racing but are they efficient enough for some street drivability as well as on an oval track?

Do they have the fuel puddling and distribution problems of the old rat roaster style intakes?



[img]https://imgur.com/ksk15eo[/img]

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Posted By: AndyF

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/28/21 04:10 AM

Yeah have fun getting that intake to work on the street. Might work when it gets hot but I bet it runs like crud when cold. Keep the car in a heated garage and you might have a chance. I have a buddy with an old NASCAR car that has that setup on it.

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Posted By: 440gtx6

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/28/21 05:40 AM

Not expecting it to be a daily driver or even in cold weather so I expected that.

Also would like to hear of any experiences with interior baffle modifications needed to avoid fuel puddling in one end.

Most of these seem to have the baffles or dividers cast in but the one in my pic does not.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/28/21 05:43 AM

Have a nice day
Posted By: 440gtx6

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/28/21 05:58 AM

That sounds like worth a try, I was thinking it could be tuned that way. Probably going to take some trial and error and testing.

Thanks for the help!
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/28/21 06:30 AM

I had a customer in SO CA high desert (4000+ Ft.) that had bought a 1966 or 1967 clone Plymouth NASCAR of Marty Robbins old race car that had one of those intakes on it that I worked on, it had extensive mods in the intake from Petty Ent. I think.
I rebuilt it with a 4 250 stroke crank assembly set up for pump gas back in 2000 or so, I dyno that motor and it had the best EGT readings I have ever seen on any carbureted Mopar motor up It would level off above 900 RPM to have within 50 degrees F on all 8 EGT and hold that from light part throttle to WOT up to 7500 RPM up
I didn't think to take pictures or draw a picture of those mods, DANG IT realcrazy
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/28/21 06:31 AM

20 years ago a friend had the nascar intake on his 64. He made a top out of 1/4” aluminum with two AFB carbs, cross ram. He drove it 50 miles to shows once a week plus around town a lot but never said anything about any problems with it. Haven’t talked with him in awhile so I might call and ask him. To me it sounded good, fired right up and no attitude when leaving the shows.
Posted By: 440gtx6

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/29/21 01:49 AM

Are these cast in divider walls similar to what you're suggesting. This seems to maybe be a later version than the one I posted above?

[img]https://imgur.com/31ph97p[/img]

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Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/29/21 02:04 AM

x
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/29/21 03:02 AM

The one he had was a NASCAR application like shown on the blue car in Andy F picture scope, not a Eddy Hemi two piece intake like the rat roadster or the other variety of them tsk
Posted By: mr_340

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/29/21 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by cudaman1969
20 years ago a friend had the nascar intake on his 64. He made a top out of 1/4” aluminum with two AFB carbs, cross ram. He drove it 50 miles to shows once a week plus around town a lot but never said anything about any problems with it. Haven’t talked with him in awhile so I might call and ask him. To me it sounded good, fired right up and no attitude when leaving the shows.


Dean Nicopolis had one with a crossram top. It looked like it would work better than the single 4bbl to me. My thought is two of the Autolite inline 4bbl carbs might be a trick way (and expensive) to go with that bottom.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/29/21 11:49 PM

How do any of the bases become cross ram, which requires each carburetor to feed only the bank of port extensions on the opposite side?
Posted By: 440gtx6

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/30/21 12:50 AM

Don't the dividers like in my second pic do that? At least with the single 4 top, looks like that was the intention anyway.

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Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/30/21 01:29 AM

x
Posted By: 440gtx6

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/30/21 03:57 AM

Yep, agreed.

The single 4 top seems to be a compromise to follow the rules and also maintain hood clearance.

On the other hand it must have provided some performance benefit otherwise why did most hemis use it in place of the earlier single 4 nascar dual plane.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/30/21 03:04 PM

Benefit: volume
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/30/21 06:34 PM

x
Posted By: mopacltd

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/30/21 11:25 PM

I have had one of these manifolds for over 40 years. Used it on an A/SM hemi Cuda and now on a 426 Hemi powered Model A. At the 2014 Mopars at the Strip, when Tom Hoover and the Ramchargers autographed the dash. Tom Hoover said he never could get that manifold to work the way he wanted. Oh, and by the way, it will be for sale when I install the stack injection back on the Hemi.
Posted By: 440gtx6

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 02:55 AM

Apparently it worked well enough for Charlie Glotzbach to go 200+ in the Daytona.
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 03:05 AM

x

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Transman
Originally Posted by mopacltd
I have had one of these manifolds for over 40 years. Used it on an A/SM hemi Cuda and now on a 426 Hemi powered Model A. At the 2014 Mopars at the Strip, when Tom Hoover and the Ramchargers autographed the dash. Tom Hoover said he never could get that manifold to work the way he wanted. Oh, and by the way, it will be for sale when I install the stack injection back on the Hemi.


Tom was a perfectionist. He was never happy with the cross ram wedge, and the Weiand Tunnel SixPack either.



He definitely had his hand in on that Wieand manifold. There was even a fiberglass intake to compare it to



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Posted By: dvw

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 12:05 PM

Its been interesting to see the development of the cross ram runners through the years. Regardless of carb placement it allows longer runners with a lower hood profile. Though the design is close to 25 years old now the Indy 440-25 is the most modern of the wedge cross ram manifolds. There have been had several ideas to make them better. The first is pictured here. To be honest I dont think anybody is running this mod anymore. The second mod has been to run a vertical plate front to rear placed between the intake runners at the base of the runner entrances. Ive seen a third mod where the angled runner entrance center dividers were milled back to vertical. Not sure any are really any better. Though some have gone quicker with the mods, some not. Mine is still box stock.
Doug

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Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 02:53 PM

X
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Transman
Autocuda - the date on the Tech write up from Tom was dated 6/74.

At that point in time Tom wasn’t happy with the manifold and as you can see was still working on it.

I was still running Super Stock with my car and at Indy that year had the fastest car in its class using the STR.
To the contrary - never had any issues launching the car. A friend of mine was using the Weiand and he was a solid tenth behind me.
Bantering back and forth at a Milan test day - the explanation that was given was the Bauman carbs made the car fast and clean.

From my recollection they developed the Weiand further

at Spehar’s and Rossi was one of the first guys to get the cals for the carbs and the mods for the manifold.
I left SS at the end of 74.

Side note - the pics of the Indy manifold Doug posts - looks a lot like an STR derivative. up


Is Spehar’s place called SVI ? I sorta assume. But don’t want to do that.

The picture I posted seems like they tested plenum box sizes. The small one would almost effectively be a tunnel ram? Maybe baseline for the test? BTW, that picture is not part of that memo nor the one below. Just shown for example.

Looks like they were getting the ball rolling serious with Weiand 7 days later.



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Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 05:05 PM

Yes, Ted Spehar’s business was called SVI. up
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 05:16 PM

A period correct STR.

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Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 06:20 PM

And this is how some are modifying the Indy.

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Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 06:46 PM

Lou asked me for the dyno sheets with the cam comparison.

I think these are them... they are attachments to the memo above.

Lou, please verify


Description: Memo
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Description: Dyno sheet 1
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Description: Dyno sheet 2
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Description: Dyno Sheet 3
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Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 06:49 PM

I see the Lou Mancini connection...

mentioned right here in this memo...

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Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 07:15 PM

x
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Transman
Autocuda - Ron was using the CD cam, me the GK.

Comparing cars, the GK made more power. The dyno runs you show, while interesting are not the one I remember. The one I mentioned to you
Show the GK R-276 vs. the CD R-286. The GK was better.

For some reason GK never got their due with Chrysler.


Ok.... I’ll dive back in....
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 01/31/21 07:31 PM

Clearly, volume is exactly the same.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Posted By: moparx

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Transman
And this is how some are modifying the Indy.



as poly said : "that's a HUGE reduction in plenum volume. why ?"


my question as well.
beer
Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 06:38 PM

After reading these post can you imagine where Chrysler would of been, then and now, without those guys expertise?
Posted By: JAKE68

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 06:47 PM

transman , i have seen this mod done to a few but never have heard of any results. I would think you would have to run the motor up higher???
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 07:19 PM

X
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 07:42 PM

I thought I saw something, but I was wrong.
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 08:32 PM

x
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by cudaman1969
After reading these post can you imagine where Chrysler would of been, then and now, without those guys expertise?


Chrysler had a handful of outside contract development people/companies during the 70’s. Mostly the same group with a few changes I can see from ‘71-‘79 IIRC, that contract deal died in early 80’s and went in house. Hoover left in 1979 (I have his brief announcement to the contractors).

SVI (Ted Sphear)
Don Carlton
Keith Black
Bob Tarozzi (Later Phoenix)
Mullen & Co (Bob Mullen)

Example...


Description: 1974 Engineering & Development Liaison List
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Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 09:29 PM

X
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/01/21 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Transman
I was on a plane with Hoover coming back from a Drag Seminar and we were chatting about him leaving. He then pulled out his brief case he had under his seat.
Opened it up and showed me model trains he had been messing with.
Said he was going to work for GE or Westington or ?? on train engines which was his first passion as a kid.
His dad was sort of a master technician back in the day.

I heard later that Tom had sent a diesel head to SVI for some head development. I can imagine what that looked like.

Tom had a dry humor.

I remember during the seminar that he had mentioned they were developing ways to get the engine closer to real world operating conditions when honing the block.
The head plate was being used back then. He said they tried running hot water through the block while honing to simulate a running engine.

He said it didn’t help at all. He said - “all we got for our effort was wet shoes”.


Lou,

Here’s Tom Hoover’s -matter of fact- leaving the company announcement ....and then he goes right onto the next topic


** I think they are talking about the 340 X-block. Later in memo mentions issue with getting block casted in Indianapolis. ... The 318 turbo seems related to a “Little Red Van” concept vehicle.

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Posted By: DoubleD

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/02/21 02:56 PM

That modified intake looks very familiar! - does the volume of the intake change - no not really. The Indy intake has a domed lid and the top does not rest or seal to what you are seeing in the picture - does this modification increase horsepower? the answer was yes on the dyno it did - it also moves the torque curve by a few hundred RPM - on track no real difference but that may be more indicative for the need to make a converter adjustment to accommodate the changed torque curve

The Modification is meant to direct the fuel charge to the runners and help with fuel charge falling out of suspension and puddling along the sides - the floor was not raised - you will notice drain back holes under the added plates to dissipate the fuel puddles
Posted By: dthemi

Re: Hemi Bathtub Single 4 Intakes - Anybody tried one? - 02/02/21 04:27 PM

The most lordly and impressive nitrous backfire I ever saw was from one of those rat roaster bathtubs. Plate kit with a leaky solenoid. Buckled the hood and made a real mess of everything. Sounded like artillery simulator.
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