M1 vs TF intake on a 440 Questions

Anyone have real experiences to share regarding
1. the exact height differences of both(TF I heard is taller)
2. Hp, et gains/losses in going from either to either on TF 240’s

I currently run a stock M1 on my 446, launching at 5100 rpm, shifting at 6500, crossing at 6600. TF 240 heads(stock), 10.9 : 1, solid 268/272@.050(.600), 950 4150, 3900 line weight. No problems with the M1 currently.

I’m not looking to make any other major changes, just curious is it’s worth trying the TF intake to go with my TF 240’s. I’ve followed Andy, seeing his 470 build and also using Wilson for intake mods. Pricey I know, but again, looking for real experiences and numbers, et gains, etc. For example, is modifying the M1 same, worse or better than TF intake, etc.

I’m all ears.

Thanks guys.

Is it a 4150 M1? The one with the Thermoquad top? If so the TF intake will make more power on the dyno. Should run a little better in the car but you're moving a lot of weight and have a big cam so results might vary. Do you room under the hood for the TF intake?

I’d be pretty surprised if the TF didn’t make more HP on the dyno.

But I wouldn’t be surprised if that didn’t translate into a better ET in that combo.

To me, it falls into the “there’s only one way to know for sure” catagory.

Yes it’s the 4150 TQ M1. Currently have a 1/2 “ spacer so I have some room to play, but that’s one of the questions, the height difference. I know TF is taller, but don’t know the specifics. And agreed, Dwayne, best way to find out is install and run. 20-25 years ago, many a Wednesday night and weekend was spent at Lebanon, driving the car from CT, and trying different parts in between runs. Age is catching up, and wisdom somewhat :), so using others knowledge to guide my decisions helps, especially from you guys. I’ll monitor here to see if anyone has any height information. If I find something myself, I’ll update here also.

One thing to keep in mind concerning manifold height measurement.......
The TF intake has the carb pad parallel to the main line.

The M1 has the carb pad angled so it’s theoretically parallel to the ground.

seems like there was alot of testing on the m1s years ago,have not seen them compared to newer intakes, I dont know with your combo if you would see an et difference but if you do let us know.......

I know it is not a direct comparison, but i think a Victor 440 is pretty similar to the TF. And i swapped to an M1 std port intake from a Victor 440 intake and have back to back track results. However, it is an M1 dominator flange changing from the Victor 4150 flange with a 1-1/2” tapered spacer. The victor/spacer height was pretty tall. The M1 was fairly low and fits inder a stock 68 b-body hood with a dominator carb and drpped base air cleaner with a kn filter lid The difference at the track was only .15 sec et and just about 1 mph. Really cannot tell at all on the street. This is a rb 505 with 620 hp.

Thank you for that info. I’ve been going through some archived stuff from AndyF and Dwayne, and finding a bit here and there, although my eyes glaze over after awhile. I know the 4150 M1 is an older design and fairly effective for its age. I’m also wondering, again from real experiences, if the TF intake ports match up more precisely with the TF head port, versus the alignment of the M1 to TF240 head. I understand port matching is a given in all circumstances, but again curious if the TF is more closely aligned as cast. Inquiring minds like to know all the little obscure details.
I’m not giving up, I know someone has something out there for me. But knowing myself, I’ll be on here updating in a couple/three weeks with an old school, direct at the strip thrash, of an M1 vs TF changeout at the track. If anybody has a proper TF intake for sale, pm me, I’ll wait a few days. Otherwise, damn, I think I just committed another manifold to the inventory.

The M1 is not a great intake while the TF intake is very, very good. But your car doesn't sound like the best place to test a TF intake which is why I'm not so sure you're going to see a big difference. If you test them back to back on the dyno you'll most likely see the TF intake pull away after 5000 rpm. A street car might never see any difference between those intake while a full on drag car with a 5000 stall convertor might see a decent improvement from the TF intake.

Looks like that trick flow intake is 6.25" tall.

This is a good comparison but, the benefits of the taller and more ideal trajectory of the TF may be offset by less plenum volume. (If you are limited by overall height and cannot use plenum spacers.) I have little doubt, in unmodified forms, a 4150 TF intake will outperform the 4150 M1 on a dyno in your application. However, if hood clearance is an issue, a 'cleaned-up' 4500 M1 and 1050 Dominator set-up may give a 4150 TF intake WITH optimized plenum a run for its money IMO.

Andy, my converter comes out at 5100-5200, 6500 shift points, crosses at 6600-6700. Pretty much stays between 5800-6600 most of the run. I really value your opinion, and I’m thinking with a 1.58 60ft, the single plane is doing well. I thought a performer rpm might not cut it. Your thoughts? Btw, I’m still dialing it in, only about 12 passes so far.

Thank you, forgot to mention I found that, did measurements.

Another good point, was wondering about a 4500 setup also.

How quick and fast is your car running now?
!.58 60 ft. is not real good for a car that is fast, not bad for a 14. + second car
I use to race several different Mopar muscle cars in NHRA stock, my old M.W. 415 HP 1963 Plymouth 2 door sedan ran 1.42 60 Ft in B/SA weighing 3520 minimum at 11:23 at 119.+ MPH running out of fuel in high gear. That car had a Mopar brand 2.77 low gear set in the tranny with a 4.56 rear gear on 29x30x15 on ten inch wide rims shifting at 7000 RPM.
That car taught me to focus on the first 330 ft. as well as pay attention to the 1/4 mile ET and MPH, every .001 gained in the 60 ft. times was worth .002 to .005 in the 1/4 mile
I sold the car after racing it the last time and the new owner found the fuel delivery problem which picked the car up .30 ET and 4 MPH in the 1/4 mile
That lesson was to not quit thinking and working on the car to make it go quicker and faster than all the other cars your racing against

If the engine needs a 4500 carb then the M1 4500 is a very good manifold.

My first post gives the spec rundown, and so far it’s gone 11.45 at 116.3
I know a huge issue is the 3925# launch weight. But like all of us, we all strive for different things. I'm testing to see how quick and fast this particular 446 combo goes, albeit only 12 passes in. It’s about trying slightly different stuff outside the norm, and I’ve found I learn a lot that way. By that I mean this combo is very far from perfect, but I’m just working my plan. With all your help, gets even better. That’s why I’m here.

It’s not what you’re asking....... nor am I really “suggesting” it(because I think the gains would be small), but I think the “overall combo” would benefit from less duration.

I agree on the cam. The best cam for my 470 was a 264/268 and that was with the 240 heads. The 240 heads flow so well at lower lift that they don't need as much duration as some other heads. You might be faster with something in the 260/264 range.

You don't mention rear gear or tire size but 116 mph at 6600 rpm doesn't sound right. I would look at your converter first to see what % slip is at finish line. I have 4.30 gears and 10.5x29.5 tires cross at 6700 128 mph. This with an 8" converter flashes to 5400.
Something to look at

Your doing the correct thing in asking for help on your car, determining who is helping and who is B.S. ing you is the hard part
Have you tried different starting line stall speeds and different shift RPM for both 1st and 2nd gear yet? Probably not yet but put that on your list to try, do one change or test at a time and keep notes for every run with any or no changes.
If it goes way slower or quicker on one run and then goes back to normal throw that run out and try and find out what happen with that run to try and identify the problem, spinning, miss the shift RPM, bogged, time slip error or what ever it was
Keep us in the loop, when can you race your car again?

I have a pretty similar setup as yours and I run a M1 4500 and a 4150 carb. My best to date 11.35 @ 118 and my 60' needs help and still sorting out the combo. Same weight, 0.40 over 440, 266@0.50 & .600 SFT, Eddy RPM's breathed on a little by Mr. Porter, and 4500 stall. And my best was with leaving it in Drive and letting it shift around 5700, which is below optimal...but I was trying to keep it near 11.50 index at Holley Moparty.

When the engine was on the dyno I ran both a Victor and this M1 and they were almost identical on paper. I went with the M1 due to height and I like the angle machined in to keep carb level.

Where in CT are you from, and how often do you go to LVD? A gold '67 X sounds right up my alley. (my car below)

My .02 - You've got alot of cam already, the TF would take more advantage of it, but as suggested what you really probably need more of is mid range torque, but with your 5100 stall speed it wouldn't get used. I think its worth a try, but you might be better off spending the money elsewhere.

There was a mag article from years ago from Steve Dulcich that tested a ton of different intakes on a 440 with really well ported stock heads and a 260 @ .050 solid roller. It was a 620ish HP combo and 666 HP with a tunnel ram. Link is below. The Eddy Victor was worth 10 HP peak and 10 ft lbs at torque peak of 4900 RPM over the M1. I hear the Trick Flow is a bit better than the Victor.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0207-intake-manifold-engine-and-rpm-range-test/

I assume 3900 at the line includes you? What do you have for a fuel pump?

116 mph @ 3900 lbs works out to less than 500 hp on the Moroso slide rule. A 440 with TF240 heads, good compression and decent solid cam like you have should make 600 hp on the dyno. So you might have a bigger issue than which intake to use.

I just measured the Trick flow intake mounted to 240 heads on my 440 and it is 6.250 to the china wall from the carb flange front and rear.

Thanks for the duration info Dwayne and Andy. Yes I thought the cam was a little higher than needed, but I was curious how the 10.9 cr and the cam would react together in this combo, and how much I could squeeze out of it.

Cab, I may go this weekend, weather and air looks excellent. Down here in Florida, that is. I’ve also used a trusty logbook to document details of the runs.
Actually started recording the tach in the car with my iPhone....that really opened my eyes to what was going on. I’ll post that story a little later.

And someone commented about the converter....yes, I think I’ve got more slip than needed. Once I get a little more time in, I’ll talk to Lenny/Montgomery at UCC, it’s one of theirs. I believe at one point I calc’d the converter at roughly 10% slip.

I’m running a 4.10 spool 83/4 with Hoosier QTP 27x10.5/15.

Jb500, what tire are you running, ratio, and 60 so far?

GTX Matt, 3900 with me yes. Holley blue pump. Originally Enfield CT, spent lots of time on the Belin Tpke in 90s and even more at LVD from 95 to 2005. Now in Florida where I can race all year long so I can spend even more time and money chasing those dreamy timeslips!

Agreed. More testing planned for this weekend. I’ve got a afr gauge installed to help watch the mixture, I’ll be recording that to see if perhaps I’m leaning out somewhere. I also feel as if my converter is giving up more hp than needed.
When I get a chance, I’ll post a time slip for forensic evaluation.
I’ll be testing timing changes and posting that info also. The run I made was at 38 degrees total to start, but I’ll be working my way down during testing to see how right or wrong I was. I started there, thinking the engine might like more timing with the big duration and less than optimal compression.

275/60 MT ET Street
4.10 with 3800# SS Springs
1.61 60' It could be better if I added Skinnies, shocks, and /6 T-Bars, but that's down the road.

Did you verify TDC on your balancer and dampener to insure your reading the actual total timing? If not you should, if so have you tried less timing yet? If not I would
I haven't built a stock stroke, or stroker, 440 motor with the TF240 heads yet so maybe those heads will make more power at 38 degrees total timing
Let us know how your doing as you go faster and quicker, that will help others on here

my black 65 is 440 trick flow 240 30over around 10to1 small solid cam from bullet 252 260 @ 50 car is 3900 1155 @ 116 38 degrees of timing

Going Saturday night (tomorrow) specifically to test the timing only. I’ll report in a few days with a full rundown. Very interested in seeing how it reacts going from 38 down to 32 in increments.
I’ll definitely post results. Can’t stand it when people don’t share!

Thanks for the info. Is 38 timing where it runs best? Ever tried different timing?

yes it likes 38

While I don’t have the M1 to TF help.
I can say i also have a 3,930 pound car.

505
10.96 comp fed with Sunoco 93
440-1 CNC 325, 2.19 intake
34* timing
M1 4150 intake..used to have the INDY 2D
1,000 cfm AED
2” header
260/268 @ 50
.585/.600 flat tappet
109 LSA
104-105 ICL
8” convertor
3.54 gear
9x28 radial slick
Shift @ 6300 and 6200...stripe @ 6200

It’s a 10.90’s car @ 121-122....hit 123 once

Be neat to see what yours does with the TF intake.

Mine liked going from the 2D to the M1 with the -1 heads.
I had to get the flanges welded on the M1 to cover the intake ports on the -1 heads.
Love to get my hands on a 440-2 / 4150.....the 440-2 / 4500 i have seems huge