543 440 Combo's

What do you guys think of this combo in a stock block with a girdle?

this should be really interesting. I would like to hear your bore and stroke thoughts. I did have a 4.375 stroke crank in a RB iron block with only a little grinding. Birdtracker

Which stock block, year and type, B, RB hemi
I wouldn't waste my time or money on using a girdle in any stock RB or B block I do use aluminum main caps and ARP main suds on the 400 blocks I build if they sonic test good
Buy a good block and have fun making a lot of power

Depends on power level.
Turning 2000 rpm on the street should not be a problem.
Making over 800 hp, I would want a better block.

I’m not sure which combo the “543” is.

4.375 x 4.500 is 541.2
4.380 x 4.500 is 542.4
4.500 x 4.250 is 540.7
4.440 x 4.375 is 541.9

I'll give this a bump as I will be building a new engine this winter and wondering if there 543 combo is better or use the 528 combo

I was just looking at the 440 source combo for my 4x4. Using the 24cc dish pistons were. 050" below deck. With milling the block deck that. 050", it would bump the compression from 9.5 to 10.3 with my 84cc heads. That's if you could get 4.350" pistons. All the pistons listed were. 055"+ os. Of course this is for a 4x4 and not a race engine, so I think it would be a good stump puller on pump gas. The girdle would probably be a good idea, even for what I'd be using it for. Just wasn't sure if I wanted to go that big, having to use external oil line. I'd be interested in seeing any combos with the 4.5" stroke, as well.

You know Dwayne, I never could figure out what a 472 crate hemi was either.

4.25 x 4.150 = 470.9

Did "471" sound too much like a Ford product? Not sure what the logic was there.

We will never know. But I do remember the part number was P5249666.
As in "mark of the beast" if you believe such things LOL

Just curious who has built one in a stock block, and how hard did you lean on it.....We have a ton of the 512 builds running around here. Fastest one was mine at 9.70 at 138.5mph on pump gas which my little 400/512 has eclipsed to a 9.60...We even have one of the 526 builds running real strong in my buddies car, so the obvious question is how would the 543 fair?

http://store.440source.com/Stroker-Kits/products/3/

440 >> 543. (4.500" stroke/7.100" rod)

Well, here is another bump... I'd like to know just for info.

I'm still planning on doing one. 4.375x3.91, I have a 77 400 block I will be starting on soon. Not sure of the heads, but I would like to use the stage v conversion hemi head on this 470. Would have to find them second hand now that they no longer make them. This would be an interesting package because I see no one doing it. I like to be different, just as most go roller when I want to see want can be obtained with a SFT.

FWIW the 512" low deck in my Valiant went 9.0's at 150 NA. SO you can certainly can make some steam this way. Will it live a long happy life, mine sure didn't. It went 100ish passes before the block gave out. Yes it had aluminum caps. Im pretty sure the 900ish HP from an NA combo in a stock block was just to much for the ole gal. I don't really know the power as it was never on the dyno but went 150 at 3470lbs so 900ish. When I did it they were between iron blocks and didn't have the $$$ for aluminum. I learned my lesson and now choose better blocks, but they have their limitations too I suppose.

My 470" tall deck went 9.69 at 139 in a 3100lb Duster with iron heads. It don't take a ton of power to run that in a typical A body racecar, 650ish will do it and I think they can live long happy lives at that level. Provided that the cylinders have some thickness or they have a tall fill.

That is a bunch of hp Al. What compression, cam and heads does it take to get 900hp?

I like it for a high torque low rpm build. I raced a 4.5 stroke 4.350 bore motor many years ago. Very mild build that made enough power to go 10.20s at 129 mph in a 3400 lb duster. I ran 4.10 gears and 33 inch tall slicks. Since the block has about a 650 hp fuse on it, plan accordingly. The best part is it can make decent power at VERY low rpm allowing a long valvetrain and block life if rpm is kept low.

I say 900ish because it was never on a dyno, just a garage build but I know the car went 150 at 3470. It was 15.5-1, CFE ported B1 heads. Cam I am not sure I have the info any longer but I recall was low .800" lift for sure(common shaft T&D's, would have been a split lift deal), duration sure was high 280ish/290 ish and on a 114-117 lobe center. I am sure I have the build notes just not sure where as we are getting ready to move. It would be typical for other B1 stuff I have done over the years, this was a very nice set of heads done by CFE. The heads ended up on another combo and made 1025 in a 572.

FWIW our 446 we ran in the dragster when my kid was a newbie was probably 650plus. Went 8.19 best here in Vegas at 1875lbs. Was a 12-1 compression deal with decent set of Indy -1's and a smallish roller on E85. Would have been in the 7's at sea level.

Our 543 kit is a 4.500 stroke x 4.380" bore, which equals 542.43 cubic inches. We offer pistons for that kit in .060" over, so we usually rate the cubic inches at the largest available bore size. And we did round up by .57 hundredths of a cubic inch.

Which block do you recommend? Any consideration on the industrial 413,block ? What’s the minimum wall thickness? Do you offer an assembled short block ?

I've sonic tested 4 stock bore(4.180) 413 truck and industrial block, none of them would go safely above 4.250 bore size in my opinion
I like to have at least .160 wall thickness on both thrust surfaces after boring

I was looking at the eagle 540 kit, with only -8 cc dish pistons, it seems to really limit the head choice. What other heads have 88cc besides edelbrock that breathe enough for 540? I suppose the -8 is ok for a strip motor with hi octane fuel, not well suited for a street or 4x4 build running on pump swill.

I just delivered a 540 race engine to a customer. If you have the block I believe the 4.25 stroke X 4.500 is the way to do it. Although this was an early Mopar mega block , we went 4.375 bore with 4.5 stoke to preserve the block for future use in bigger bores. Fully ported TF 240 heads with a roller Made 850 on the pump. Full race deal. Testing at the track has been limited with all the virus crap but early signs are promising.

Never sonic checked that 413 block myself but I saw an operation ONE BESTER than that !

When I was west side down State Michigan there was a guy I knew who had a BUSTED UP block ......

Who pulled up sections of that block.... I saw areas in the cylinder walls - ON THAT BLOCK - that were near .250 !

4.170+.250=4.420, correct
4.420-.160=4.260, hence me choosing to bore them to standard 426W and 383 bore sizes for pistons and ring choices

Most all blocks are the same and work great. If you haven't read it, check out our article on engine blocks here: http://www.440source.com/blockinfo.htm

We've found the 413 industrial blocks to have very thick cylinder walls (over .400") so they usually support boring out to a 440 size. But you should always sonic check the specific block you are using, and make sure it has enough thickness. The factory "spec" for cylinder wall thickness is .250". We usually don't like to see less than .180" or so.

Bump to see if anyone has built one.....in a stock block...

The one i posted about earlier in this thread was actually a 426 wedge block bored .100 to 4.350 and a stock rod journal size of 2.375 using 6pak rods and a 4.500 stroke. At 535 cubes with 906 heads it took a .750 lift 286 @ .050 roller to make power above 5700 rpm.
I see little point in pushing a 4.5 stroke stock block above5500 to 6000 due to strength issues. Same with power. Stay at about 650 hp and enjoy the torque.

I am looking to go 5's.....And what my best options might be..

5.90 in the 1/8th is about 9.23 in the 1/4 and at 3000 race weight will take about 750 hp. So i would definately find a good 400 block and go with a 512 with ported large port heads. The easeist route is 14.5 + compression, mechanicl fuel injection, alcohol and a rollercam similar to an Isky RR735. Plan your valvetrain carefully. I needed more spring than isky called for with that cam. You might hit the number at 3000 lbs with that recipe and bowl porting only, but it will be close. I went 9.34 at 143 mph in Minnesota (1800 da?) With bowl ported 440-1 heads, 13/1, 499 cubes, 283/290/110 roller cam of .760 lift. Alky injected, shifting 6800.

To go 9.20’s at 3000lbs will require a little over 700hp, uncorrected, as it sits on the starting line.
So, you’d be shooting for 770-800 STP hp on the dyno.

Probably not the best plan for a stock block.

Making the power isn’t that hard.
Getting the stock block to live at that power level is the challenge.

I wonder how many have built stock 440 block combos that make 750+ hp(especially long stroke combos)........ and race them regularly(as in..... a typical weekly bracket program).

@ what weight ?

Race wieght was 3000 lbs. That 499 lived a good long life and was sold and hit with nitrous for a couple seasons.

Been 6.02 so far at 3000lbs...with my little 400/512....It just seems like it does not pull as hard down track as my previous 440/512.....Which got me thinking about the bigger strokers they offer...The 526 and then the 543....Seems like my current combo with 20 more Hp would make it...

I just don't know about a 4.5 stroke in a stock block...

I wouldn't learn either AKA don't stress the main webbing in a stock block, even with a girdle

I take back what I said a few months ago about the 4.250 stroke motors not making good power as mine did not at the time and I hadn’t seen anyone else impressing me with one. I am now impressed with the output of the 511/512 combos. You guys are making good power and going impressively fast with them. I found a key ingredient in the 511 combo, compression. I gained almost 4 tenths with a 1.25 point increase also tightening up the quench to .040 at the same time.

Thanks ….sounds real close to my combo but I have a little more cubes with more race weight and less cam and the i'v been is 600.2.

I have a 543 with a stock 440 block, aluminum caps and a girdle. Victor heads, solid roller cam, 1050 dominator It is in a 68 barracuda with a 4 speed and a dana 60 with 4.56's.

The car is apart right now, and I have been 2 busy building other peoples cars to work on my own junk. Maybe sometime next year it will be done. AND yes i know ill break parts.

I spun it to 6500 RPMS before with a 727 behind it and 4.10s in the rear on 26" tall tires. Just on the street and no traction.

I don't plan on taking it to much over 5k rpms, and I may add a little boost to it, small turbo and EFI keep the rpms down even more but make lots of power.

My parts arrived, and I would like to get back to this thread and see what HP you guys are at with one of these......I have Indy big easy 325 heads, so I am curious how far this will go. What kind of cam specs should I be shooting for? My little .680 lift 280 duration is staying with my 512/400 so I am going to need a new cam. I like the 280 duration, maybe more lift?

I will be in the 5's this year, one way or another...

Since you asked and based on your stated goal...I think Dwayne (and some others) answered your question but it went unrecognized? The extra stroke will help add compression but you can do the same with a piston. If you are set on changing the combination of parts...I'd put the longest rod you can on a crank 3.75 to 4" and SPIN it for power make the bobweight under 2000 gms on a 2.1 pin. Put BETTER work and parts in your top end and it'll make the same power at 451" as it will at 541" but the bobweight and longer rod will help it live.

I guess we will see...

I have the 541 440source deal but used GRP 7.1 rods.

Runs 5s with indy -1 in my Valiant. I don't run it much since I got Ka-Blue-E running.

Its strong but not huge numbers over the 500ci shortblock I replaced it with.

Are you implying that the RB platform makes more power than a B platform in the same type of build?
1.6 intake rockers, have someone who knows what they're doing revise the Indy CNC ports/valve job, and porting the intake manifold would have got you there.
As far as longevity, I agree with HardcoreB's recommendation.

Yes is my quick answer.

We went 6.13 with a pump gas 512/440 without a lot of effort, and our race gas 400/512 runs about the same ET after lots of effort.....We suspect its the longer rods that allows the 440/512 to pull harder on top, but that's just a guess. It also took us a while to get the little 400/512 to mph the same. And you have to remember, its got smaller journals and weighs less, so where is the improvement?

I did learn, the 400/512 intake seems a bit more restrictive than the 440 based intake. I gained a bunch of ET when I ported the intake. So, it might be a plenum thing. We have debated this around the shop for a while as the small journal and light weight B combo should be faster than the RB, but it has not turned out that way for us. Same carb, same heads, same cam, same headers, same car.

So it begs the question, what happens if we go to a high compression 440 based unit of the next size up?

Interesting. The raised block with more compression should be a real nice package. What are the rods and pistons used in each combo?

440Source for us, so the pistons are the Icon brand, rods I do not recall, and ARP2000 bolts with girdle, and we will do a partial fill....

I will add one more thing, we went with the 6lbs lighter crank in that B engine....And it still took a big effort to get to the same ET.

Build a 470, problem solved homey......

I did learn, the 400/512 intake seems a bit more restrictive than the 440 based intake. I gained a bunch of ET when I ported the intake. So, it might be a plenum thing. We have debated this around the shop for a while as the small journal and light weight B combo should be faster than the RB, but it has not turned out that way for us. Same carb, same heads, same cam, same headers, same car.

Dragula .....what cam, compression were use with the 400/512 combo i thought i read somewhere that you were useing -1's for heads ?

Same pistons I use. What length rod each combo?

I am going to resurrect this thread from the dead as I am interested in how this build is going for you in the stock block, or if its running yet. What kind of clearancing was required? What external oil system did you end up with?

Been considering this combo for my scamp with the Trickflow 270s and either a Solid FT or roller cam to get me into the 9's on pumpgas at 3400lbs.

Running 6.0's at 113.7mph, trying to go into the 5's....I have about 13 passes on it, 11 all in a Friday Saturday stint where I ran two classes and made the semis in both and the starter quit in the lanes. Still tuning and replacing brand NEW parts. Plugs were dead rich....All new carb, convertor, motor....

The list of stuff that needing fixing/replacing was almost endless this year, but I am down to carb tuning, and another brand new high torque starter....And probably slicks very soon.

Then I learned I need my chassis re-certed to go 5's as its out, and probably a full face helmet & gloves...Not sure have to check.

Yikes, sounds like some expensive bad luck, but also sounds like its movin and you'll be able to get after it.

Maybe I missed it, but do you have the final engine combo posted somewhere?

For the few runs I have on it, it runs very well. This year was wet and cold to start with, and I got zero testing in. So 6.07 at 113.9mph off the trailer isn't too bad leaving at 2400rpm and shifting at 6400...

As I lean it out, it will get meaner....It was super lean at idle, and then goes too rich at the hit....I have a wide band in the car this year....So I fattened up the idle, and leaned out the main jets and HSB, plus I have a 3-circuit shop carb to try out and my old 1250 2 circuit to see if its too big or not. So this Friday, I am going to to TNT if I can get the day off....Its a long shot due to a big IHRA event this weekend.

The list of busted stuff this year has been a real PITA......Broke the tongue jack on the trailer (my fault), broke the rear door on the trailer (not my fault), wiring & brakes on the trailer quite (not my fault), carb was off a bit, brand new starter fried.....stupid fuel pump has been an on going nightmare....GoPro died, and my AFR gauge gave me fits....

So final engine combo is:

Indy 325 fully ported heads with 2.25" intake valves (2.19" are standard).
Indy fully ported 4500 intake. (ported by me, clover leaf removed/)
440 stock block +.03 with hard fill to the bottom of the plugs & 440Source girdle fully studded
440Source 540 kit with 4.5 stroke & 14.5:1 pistons with 76cc heads
Thumper 1050 carb
Custom stepped headers 2-1/8 to 2-1/4
Billet fab oil pan running 11quarts AN16 outlet
KB Alum oil pump w/AN16 inlet
Meizere Elec. water pump

What cam are you running? Rocker ratio?

Rockers are Indy 1.5 rockers with a Comp cam...

That's a lot smaller cam than I expected in that combo.

I went through a 541(4.375 x 4.500) that was built from a Mega Block several years ago.
Flat tops(12:1-ish), -1 heads, roller cam with 1.5 rockers.
I ported the heads and installed 2.25” intakes.

Made a little over 800hp with a 440-2/adapter and an 1150 on it.

With a ported Indy TR and 2 x 1050’s it made 848hp.

With the 4.375” bore It could be built out of a stock 440 block, but at that power level I’m not sure how wise that would be.

Impressive for sure! And only shifting at 6400....what gas are you running with the 14.5:1 CR?

That's an interesting question, and we weren't sure either, so I called VP directly and told them what we built...

They recommended X14 for NA bracket racing and I had been running C12 which he said we are right around the limit on....So all I had with me was C12 figured I would get some X14 at the track and mix it 50/50...

Well, all they had was C16, which is what I ended up with, and I mixed that with C12 50/50....All I will be running from here on out will be C12 as it doesn't seem to care either way.3333