440 Stroker Engine Problems In A 1967 Plymouth Fury

Hi All,

I am wondering if anyone has any tips and or advice for my stepfather for his '67 Fury II with a 440 Stroker engine. The engine was built years ago by a well known high performance Mopar engine builder. We swapped out 3 carburetors and ignition modules and the car now has a Demon carb. We have TTI headers that came with the exhaust kit on it. When the car is cold, it runs like a bat out of hell. It can do burnouts and runs pretty good. But when it gets hot, it does not want to run, and when it's at a stoplight it stalls. mind you We just honed the pistons. My stepfather mostly uses Edelbrock, so the intake got changed from a performer to a regular rpm. Mind you he put an aluminum radiator and electric fans in it too. He did a compression test and checked parts of the engine, and he thinks everything looks fine, everything is new. Since he got so disgusted with it, he just stopped working on it. Now it just sits and collects dust. Since he did a resto, he drove it a little over 200 miles. We took the car out yesterday and it still doing the same thing before we honed the pistons. At this point this stroker engine will be taken out and a stock 440 will be put in, but I figured I would ask you fine folks to see if we can do anything to salvage this engine before we take it out. Here is a picture of the car and a couple of the engine. PLEASE , it would be much appreciated.

The pistons were measured from top to bottom before honing, these were the starting numbers

These were the final numbers, the tool in the picture was used to measure the pistons.....

That’s a neat sleeper !

Who is that famous builder ?

My FIRST THOUGHTS were ... the pistons weren’t properly fitted into the block

The engine builder was well known in Ohio, rather not mention his name but his last name was Mr. Wilson. Now since passed on

These tools were used to measure the inside of the cylinder heads. After measuring the cylinder heads with the tool in the 2nd picture we have these numbers in the 3rd picture.....

Maybe the cylinders are a little to small so when the pistons get hot it seizes up. My first stroker had that problem. The stroker kit I bought came with blower pistons and the machine shop set the engine up for regular pistons. When the engine got warm it would seize up. It required a complete rebuild to fix it. All it takes is one small mistake when you build an engine. My advice is to pull the engine out and have a good mechanic go thru it. Might be an easy fix once it is all apart.

We actually did "call in the big guns", and had a specialist/good friend/Mopar mechanic and guru. He suggested the same thing with honing the pistons, we honed them out, and that unfortunately still did not work.

It could be 50 things.

Including being something as simple as vapor lock with today’s crappy gas....... if you’re still running a mechanical fuel pump.

Cool car!!

Love the car.

I'm not sure I understand the question about pistons. Piston manufacturer specifies a specific clearance at a specific measuring point on the part. Typically the clearance is achieved right at the specified bore diameter the pistons were built for.

If you really think the pistons are stuck in the bores......Get it good and hot, put on some welding gloves so you don't burn yourself, pull all the spark plugs out, put a breaker bar on the damper bolt and see how hard it is to turn with a bar.

"it does not want to run, and when it's at a stoplight it stalls"

When that happens, Does the starter work okay, does the engine spin relatively fast when you turn the key?
If it does, it's not piston to wall clearance.

It's hard to tell by the pictures, but if there were a major problem with clearance, the pistons would be visibly damaged and it doesn't appear they are (from the little bit that is visible).

Lots of things it could be, ignition, fuel, vapor lock, a ground or connection that goes bad when it's hot, stuff like that.

When he swapped the intake, did he block the heat crossover?

[quote=fast68plymouth]It could be 50 things.

Including being something as simple as vapor lock with today’s crappy gas....... if you’re still running a mechanical fuel pump.

Cool car!! [/quote

Thank you for the compliment. It acts like it has vapor lock but it has a carburetor spacer on it, and an electric fuel pump to boost the mechanical one and that still did not work.

first place i'd go is fuel delivery. check hose connections, pump push rod, and pressure.to my knowledge all mech pumps that don't need a regulator are marginal and some are horrible, like the stock replacements. I modify carter 6903's and I think they're borderline for 450hp. i'm just too stubborn to go electric/regulator. mech pumps do better cold than hot. they'll lose a pound or so in psi when warmed up. I have one of those high pressure carters, 4862, that's a real gusher but it would have to be regulated. finding regulators that work good with pulse pumps has been an issue for me.

QUICK EZ CHECK ... when it gets hot ... stop the motor .. pull the coil wire and see how it cranks over.

If it LABORS ... I’ll bet it’s toooo tight piston to wall

The starter works ok yes. As far as the engine sometimes it turns fast, sometimes it does not.

The car has 440 source heads and they unfortinatley do not have a crossover

easy test drain all the gas out and get some non ethanol gas or cam2 and see if it runs better. mine does the same thing. its even worse with the winter blend. since I put a return system its way better.

my first impression was ignition....looks like stock distributor and coil but i see no ballast.....what's inside the distributor?.....12 volts to the coil all the time?....does the coil get extremely hot to the touch?

on my sons car we pulled the hood off and it ran fine. his was doing the same thing. get the heat off the carb.

There is indeed a ballast but you can't see it from my picture though, it is mounted elsewhere also. There is not 12 volts inside the distributor that I know of, and I do not recall on the coil being hot. We will check it next time we look at the car.

I had a magnetic pickup do this in a '75 Powerwagon a few years back. It would run fine until it got warmed up and then wouldn't start. Turned over fine, though, just no spark.

I had a chevy do the same thing, would run fine when cold and then when hot it would turn into a dog. Was hard to start when hot. Turned out the coil was bad, changed it and all was good.


Joe

The car has a phenolic bodied carb spacer, and a phenolic bodied Demon carburetor on it also so it dissipates heat better.

I agree with lewtot184 to check integrity of fuel delivery system. Road salt and sand accumulation where the steel fuel line runs along the frame rails and under front suspension rusted fuel line producing pin holes in the line covered with debri. Line would never hold a real vacuum.Mechanical pump couldn't produce enough vacuum to pump fuel at low speed when warmed up. It happend to a police vehicle (Mopar) while driving in a parade. Very imbarrassing for the officer,when it died out several times.
Porous fuel lines,neoprene or steel,can fool you. Same for a clogged sending unit sock, or lack of tank venting. Early vehicles, alot of times relied on venting provisions inthe fuel tank cap itself.You can verifythe lack of venting by running the vehicle without the cap on after the car has warmed up.If car operates correctly at that point, you have wrong gas cap plugged tank vent tube.Be sure to also check sock tube on fuel sender on an older car that has set for a while, it has fooled many Bill

So was there any signs of pistons scuffing as I metal transfer? When you called in the experts did they square up the bores and sign off on "well that was the cause" How was the valve lash at running temp? The 440 Source heads sounds like a strange part addition since Nick was an Indy head guy. But since your dad was paying the bill I guess he put on what he wanted

Gus

Here are some more pictures of the engine....

One more picture......

Yes there was scuffing but very very minimal and don't believe that caused the problem, our mechanic took the oil pan off the engine and said he "leaned towards" honing the cylinders, and another friend of ours also suggested honing the cylinders as well like we did

Nick set all that up and it was not touched since then

That would be correct my stepfather wanted the 440 source heads.

The car does not have a sending unit sock

We honed out the cylinders .003" and it still does not run

too many unknowns here. what does it mean the car doesn't run?

what is the initial timing set at? are you running an electronic distributor or points? is the distributor in 180 degrees? is there a thermostat in the car? if yes take it out. what carb is on the car now? take the throttle cable off the carb. I just ran across this on another site where the throttle cable was hanging up pulling the throttle blades open exposing the idle slots and making the mixture screws in effective. how many different problems are we fighting here. so lets take it one at a time.

also hopefully you didn't hone a full .003 out of the cylinders that's a ton. telescoping gages are not the way to measure the bores.

I've had them do that too.

Just remember....air, fuel, spark, compression. That's all it needs.
The odds of it losing compression and air are slim.
It's most likely losing fuel or spark.

Check for fuel spark with the condition duplicated.

Quick test for ballast resistor equipped stuff, multimeter required:
Check coil + voltage key in start vs. key in run. Should have battery voltage in "start", should be around 9v or slightly less depending on ballast value with key in "run". If you've got less than battery voltage with the key in "start" then you're probably on the right track. (This is a pretty common wiring error).

I love the car! Does he live near you - would love to meet him and see the car when I visit my mom.......

My first thought was fuel and the second ignition. You can't rule out fuel pressure unless you have a pressure gauge . Does it have a fuel pressure gauge? My 67 Coronet street car was running out of fuel and to diagnose it I temporarily tied a fuel pressure gauge to the wiper - it told me that my pressure was dropping to near zero on acceleration - was temperature dependant.

You could have an ignition box, pickup or ignition coil failing when it gets hot.

If the pistons were too tight in the wall, I would expect that would be easy to test by trying to turn the motor over with a breaker bar when hot. Should be noticeably harder to turn over. And it should turn over noticeably slower with the starter.

Fuel is vaporizing in that steel line between the pump and the carb. If you are still running the electric fuel pump, try bypassing the mechanical pump. A stroker motor should have 3/8" fuel line run from tank to carb.

The above are my initial thoughts too.
Coil, distributor pickup, fuel delivery problem when hot, etc.

To answer you questions Mr. Jerry we do not remember what the initial timing is set at, we are running an electronic distributor, the distributor not at 180 degrees, there is a thermostat in the car although you cannot see it in my pictures, the carb that is on it right now is a 750 cfm Demon, and unfortunately yes we did indeed hone the cylinders to .003.

Thank you we appreciate that. Yes sir he does.

I think your chasing the wrong thing to fix, take your time to figure out exactly what is causing it to not run good when warmed up
I'm not sure where you live or where the car was driven in it life but you could have a grounding problem with the car or ignition system, works good cold and then heats up and then doesn't work good
Good luck, keep us in the loop, we, you and all of us on here, will be glad to help you find, identify and fix the problems

Are the pistons cast or forged? In one bore you have .002 interference.

SOUNDS LIKE VAPOR LOCK. Modern fuel evaporates EXTREMELY easy, and the mechanical pump puts it under a vacuum. You likely have 3 PSI fuel pressure or less once its hot as soon as you open the throttle. What kind of electric pusher, and where is it mounted? Is there a filter anywhere before the mechanical pump?

You really need to measure the pressure with a gauge. My car on fuel pretty local to you would drop to 3 psi as soon as you cracked the throttle once hot. It was an animal cold. I spent a long time chasing my tail between the fuel pressure and crappy Thrush mufflers with a combo that should have made 500 HP easily until I mounted a gauge on the cowl. Once both of these were fixed it will bury your head into the head rest when it gets traction in 1st or 2nd gear (rare now, only on slicks). The car didn't nose over, or act like it suddenly ran out of fuel. In fact it didn't really seem like it was vapor locking, except for the fact that sometimes when really heat soaked it would act like it wanted to stall.

Can you get it to run at all when its hot and dies? Does it crank normal? What temperature does it run at?

You can run a compression test cold, then run it warm. If the engine cranks easy and compression is the same or higher it has nothing to do with piston to wall clearance or ring seal.

You should verify timing, but that's not your problem. Maybe the coil, or pertronix unit if you are running that.

If Nick built that engine I really doubt there was an issue with PTW. If anything mechanical I would suspect it might have an intake sealing issue that starts leaking once hot. You had the engine part to hone it but did not check the lash when you put the valve train back together? Check the lash, is it a solid cam or hydro?

Wow, took the whole motor apart!

Quick and easy, go drive it, when it stalls pop the air cleaner, does the carb squirt gas? If no start looking at fuel system.

If yes, pull the coil wire and have someone turn it over while you hold a screwdriver from the coil wire close to something metal see if it is sparking.

cgall, out of all the replies you are the only one I agree with. Looking at all the pics of that tiny metal fuel line right next to the block. And at one point looks like its about an inch from the header. A simple case of vapor lock. First it needs a much bigger fuel line. Then get it away from the heat . I would use nylon braided hose it won't absorb the heat like that steel line. An electric pump set up with a return line would be ideal. Keeps the fuel moving when at idle.

if you think the fuel is vaporizing in the line and causing vapor lock. the easy question to answer is will the engine cough and run if you squirt gas into the carb? you should be able to check the initial timing with a timing light.

All these suggestions may be the problem, or not, it all starts with diagnosis..........

Hi everyone,

I got an update on our '67 440 stroker Fury. Yesterday we did a crank test where we put a breaker bar on the damper bolt that holds the damper to the crank (like Mr. Zippy suggested). We cranked the bolt before we started the engine and let it get hot, then we ran the engine until it was warm at operating temp then shut the car off then cranked the bolt again. We cranked the bolt 3 times and it turned about the same each time when it was cold and hot. The car ran great as always until it got up to operating temperature then started misfiring or shaking, we let it run and when it got hot the electric fans came on to cool the engine as they were supposed to twice maybe 3 times. Our Mopar friend/mechanic/guru I beleive saw this posting and called my stepfather about the car. My stepfather talked the problems over with him and another friend, and they both say to check the valves because it might be a tight valve guide problem as they were common with 440 source heads. So the next plan of action is to put a 4th distributor in that is built to spec for a 440 Super Commando, then go check the valve guide. Stay tuned. Here are some pictures of what we did yesterday, below is the ballast resistor and the last blurry temperature picture is when it started misfiring and when we shut it off .We started it up after we shut it off 3 times and it started all 3 times with minimal issue.....

Last photos, the last blurry temperature picture is when it started misfiring and when we shut it off .We started it up after we shut it off 3 times and it started all 3 times with minimal issue.....

when its warm out i used to have all kinds of vapor lock problems with my roadrunner, for whatever reason its the only one of the cars i have an issue with vapor lock, for me the fix has been to simply run non ethanol gas.

the best solution for vapor lock is a return line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t6geNGbEXM

I had a coil like that that got hot and caused the engine to quit.

Now that i seen pictures of your car, let me update my post from 8 days ago, CHANGE THE COIL! at the very least check the resistance cold and hot.


Joe

Are you running a electronic dist... I had the pick up coil in the dist do that many times at a shop
that I worked at

[/quote]

Now that i seen pictures of your car, let me update my post from 8 days ago, CHANGE THE COIL!


Joe [/quote]

It was swapped out already for another one and did the same thing it has been doing

Yes we are running an electronic distributor. We have another distributor built to 440 Commando specs that we bought, so we are going to try to see if it fixes the problem

I've read this entire post. Questions. Have you ever pulled the coil wire and checked for spark hot ? I dont see this question answered. Have you ever squirted fuel in the bowl and tried to start? I dont see that answered either. Have you pulled a plug and tested compression hot? If the valves were sticking open hot this test would confirm lack of compression hot vs cold. The engine only needs a few parameters to run. Compression with correct valve timing. If the valve timing was incorrect it would never run. It needs correctly timed spark. And it needs a burnable air fuel mixture. The only other possible item would be restricted exhaust such as a plugged catalytic converter. Since I'm assuming that it has no converters I would say this is unlikely. Also assuming the engine cranks with reasonable speed hot. That leaves 15 minutes worth of tests above to determine why it wont start hot. After determining if its , spark, fuel/air, or compression. The real diagnosis will begin.
Think simple first.
Doug

Hi Everyone,

I got a little update on the '67 Fury stroker 440 project. This evening we put in another distributor, this one a built to spec 440 Commando and not a performance one. It did help a bit, as it has a less advanced curve than the Mopar Performance one that was on the car. We also took the timing with a timing gun before and after we swapped the distributors before starting the car and letting it run, which was the same both times. About 10 degrees. It ran a little better with the new distributor, seemed like a little longer also. We let it run about 15-20 minutes after swapping distributors and got it to operating temperature, put it in gear, and it did die but it also did start back up right after with no issues. Otherwise that was mainly all we did for the evening with it. Unless someone has any other opinions, at this point we are suspecting tight valve guides and we will check them next time we work on the car. The first 2 pictures are of the "old" distributor, 3rd picture is the new distributor in the box before we put it in.

last one

I might be late to the party but if its running fine then dies when you drop it in gear I would back the mixture screws on the carb out a 1/4 turn at a time until it will stay running when put in gear, and keep going till you minimize the rpm drop.

tight valve guides will tear the guides and valve stems up and open up to more clearances than you need, or they will seize the valve and bend them
You have another tuning issue or issues
I wish I was closer so I could drive it to help you and your Dad.
Sometimes the littlest thing will drive you crazy finding and fixing it
Don't give up :tsk Keep working on it, you guys can fix it

Hello All,

Yes another useless post by me but I figured I would give an update on the project. We performed a hot valve guide test last night on the 440 stroker engine on the left divers side valves only, no numbers were involved. Yes I told my stepfather it's not the valves it's fuel related but it was after we performed the valve test because he wanted to just to see. We did the test and it is not the valves (like I personally thought). We took the bolts out of the valve cover, started the car, and let it run to about operating temperate, shut it off, then took the valve cover off and did the test with a little bar and piece of wood. Just so happens nothing was tight, but I suggested testing the right side valves also anyways just in case but we did not last night but probably will soon. Also we tripped the starter relay, watched the left side valves, and nothing was sticking or anything from what we saw so we figured if it was that bad we would of thrown a push rod already. We talked to a very good friend this morning and he suggested a couple things such as a performance fuel pump and line and a couple other things.

No post with pictures of a nice looking engine is useless.

Ignition and/or fuel is still where I'd be looking.

Real quick ideas again:

You could install an inline fuel pressure gauge at the carb which would tell you alot.

You could check voltage at coil + in both "start" and "run". If you find both key positions
have less than battery voltage, there's a wiring error.

You already tested for tight valve guides/'assembly hard to operate when hot' by turning the crank bolt
when cold and hot, and not finding much of a difference between the two.

It's all good, though. As long as you're having fun working on it together, keep at it.

Hi All,

I have another update on the stroker Fury for everybody. We tested the right or passengers side of the valves this time to see if they stuck just in case, and just so happens they did not. We also put in another coil to test that and it did not change anything. That said my stepfather talked with a good friend about the car and he suggested getting an MSD Blaster II from Jegs and a new HiRev ECU or brain from Mr. Erenburg (the same person who we got the distributor), and also a Holley Blue fuel electric fuel pump. So we are going to try the MSD Blaster and the HiRev brain, and if THOSE don't fix it then we will try the fuel pump then look into the fuel system.

Im really pulling for you to get it figured out. Your car is so cool. Not modded visually too far from stock but much much more power than stock.

Hi All,

I have an update on the '67 Fury 440 stroker. Nothing done to the car since last time. I however personally bought a Mr. Gasket fuel pressure gauge from Advance Auto, and Lucas Oil Racing Formula Octane Booster for my stepfather for the car to give him a hint besides telling him that it is the fuel. Here is what I got, and hopefully we will now be going somewhere with this car. But wait there's more, my stepfather took FURYGT's advice and bought an MSD Blaster II coil and a new ECU from Mr. Erenberg. Which by the way these have arrived to our house. So the next thing we will do is put these in and see what the car does, and hopefully these will do the trick. I will keep everyone updated to what happens.....

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p...-10026/7080088-P?searchTerm=octane+boost

I have only scanned the replies but runs great cold runs poor hot to me sounds like it could be too rich. Can you borrow an exhaust gas analyzer? A LM-1 or LM-2 with one of the adapters to put into the end of the exhaust pipe might tell you a lot.
It sounds like you have done a lot of hard work with little to show for it. Immediately jumping to the pistons are too tight when hot seems like a big leap when there can be so many other reasons for a car to run poorly when warm. What was the coolant temperature when warmed up? If the pistons are that tight I think cutting open the oil filter and looking for a cubic shitload of metal would be a step to take.
I had a MSD Blaster 2 coil, lasted less than 6 months on our 70 Road Runner. Replaced it with a Lucas sport coil and it has worked great ever since. Until the rear frame rail cracked, the boot lid fell off and the rear window fell out but that is not the fault of the coil.

It is a great looking car.

Hi All,

Not to say it out loud but I think we maybe getting somewhere with the '67 Fury 440 stroker engine, I got a bigger update than usual. As I mentioned in my last post, we bought an MSD Blaster II coil and a new HiRev 7500 brain from Mr. Erenberg that a friend recommended. We put the Blaster coil and MSD ballast resistor in, then we WERE going to put in the Erenburg brain BUT we read the instructions first. Good thing we did too, as the brain was not compatible with the MSD coil. According to the instructions the brain needed to be run with a stock coil, so that said we took the MSD coil out BUT left the ballast resistor in then put the brain in.

NOW, we start the car and let it run for about 20 to 25 minutes and it ran very good. Better than it normally does to be honest. We put it in gear while the car was sitting in the garage and normally it dies BUT it didn't this time, which was a good sign. We did this about 2 maybe 3 times and still no stalling. So NOW we take it out for a test drive in the evening when it was cooler out than during the day, we took it to get gas and back home which was about a 10-15 minute drive going and coming back and it ran flawlessly with no stalling. We let it sit at the gas station while we filled it up and let it heat soak, it started right back up with no issue. We are not out of the woods yet though, the true test will be taking it out during a hot 85-90% day and seeing what it does but for now things are looking up for this car.