Max wedge big block vs w2 small block

Hi new member long time reader
I am building a sled pulling truck that requires iron heads. Big blocks are limited to. 472ci but must run factory castings. I have a set of 286 heads with one being cracked and in need of welding. Small blocks are limited to 434ci and can run aftermarket heads but must be cast iron. I also have a couple sets of w2 heads Rpm would need to be run around 8,000 to 8,500. If going small block I would get a 48 degree block and heads. Which heads would make more power if ported and the rest of the combo is correct. Thanks Grant

286 heads are kinda frail....... so I can’t see myself getting too excited about those in that application.

Are the replacement 518’s legal?

My suspicion is that the really sharp SB guys could probably get the W2’s to be as good or better than the typical ported MW heads.

What’s the block rule?

What heads are legal for the Chevies and Fords?

I would think a 650 horse deal wouldnt be out of the realm of possibility with well done W2 heads and the associated goodies( roller, compression, etc)
Not sure what a big block could make....

I think I could get away with the replacement heads not sure tho. They are changing the rules to allow big blocks to have an aftermarket block as well. It was small block only for aftermarket blocks. The big block fords run cast iron super cobra jets and there are a few that run really well. One is supposed to be around 900hp. Not sure on the chevys. One was dynod the other day and made over 800 but haven’t seen any other engines on the same dyno to compare it to

What can the other SB combos run for heads?
Dart iron heads? Any cc limitations?
Valve angle rule?

What’s the intake manifold rule?
Cam rule?
Carb rule?
Compression rule?
Fuel rule?

I think a 434 Ford with Cleveland 4bbl heads would be a good SB combo........ if you could find heads that weren’t already used up.

It ain't hard to make 725 to 775 HP on pump swill,850+ on race gas, with the right parts in a BB
The big deal is getting a stock block to live at 8000 + RPM at WOT for more than 15 seconds
On your deal a good 400 block is the only one I would consider using if you decide to build a BB

They have to be cast iron heads is all. There is one small block Chevy that has darts on it. Not sure which ones they are. Everything else is big block. Any intake as long as it is cast and mass produced. No sheet metal intakes. Any camshaft and carb allowed other than a stretched dominator. I can run a normal 4500 tho. I do have a 400 block In tho shop. Any race gas is allowed other than alcohol

There use to be a set of cast iron 440-1 on here for sale
Buy them and then look at a 3.391 or 3.900 stroke crankshaft with a Indy 400-3 intake and a 1050 CFM or bigger dominator carb. and bore the 400 block to either 4.350 or 4.360 (make sure on the C.I. first, you may need a shorter stroke) and buy a good set of aluminum main caps with ARP studs, no girdle shoot for 14.0 + to 1 compression ratio and a good set of rockers and pushrods and go have some fun
The heads will need to flow at least 370 CFM at .700 lift, more air will make more power

The cast iron 440-1 are illegal. Big blocks must run factory castings. Any suggestions on porters if I went with the w2s now that shady dell is out of the picture?

Running a Mopar with those rules is definitely going at it the hard way.

Is the Ritter block legal for a SB?

You know they don’t make w2’s anymore, right?
So you’re looking at used, or some NOS someone might have on the shelf.

I had a set of brand new W2 heads for sale on here for a long time. Nobody was interested on here but a local guy showed up one day and bought them. So they are out there but not much demand for them.

Yes it is legal. I already have a couple sets of w2s They seem to be easier to come by than max wedge heads

Might be worth a call to Kent to see if he has any connections for porting those w2’s.

Chad Speier out in Ft. Hays, KS ported a local guy's cast iron W2's. With a 340 block stroked to 418 he is making an easy 600 HP on pump gas.

Who to go for porting W2s is a tough one, most people don't want to mess with Iron heads these days. Mine were done by Ryan and he said they would support 700HP. I am in the area of 600 now with low(10:1) 91 octane compression.

I had a local cylinder head guy freshen up the Valve Job last winter and he liked and was impressed by the work Ryan had done, its too bad that whole deal went south.

600-650hp from W2’s on a high compression stroker shouldn’t be that hard at all.

If it’s a pretty serious class........ I doubt that would be competitive though.

With all the stuff that’s available for SB and BB Chevies........ you should be able to build one of those that makes another 100hp....... just by shopping in the Summit catalog.

700-750hp from a 286 head or some W2’s is gonna take some work.

If I could be around 700 I would be happy. We can run a vac pump also to help squeeze the most out of it as possible. Rules state the engine must match the truck. I already have the chassis done so I’m stuck with Mopar powered which I would prefer anyways. I could step up to the pro stock class that allows aluminum heads and 485ci. My buddy runs a ford in that class with kaase p51s that makes 950 and is getting the new sr71s next year. They really limit the Mopar heads in that class as well. No b1s. So victors or indys would be the better choices for it.

I’m not really a SB guy, but with those rules...... I’d build the w2/Ritter SB before I went with 286 heads on a stock block.

Trying to get a handle on this. Bigblock's can't run the Indy cast iron 440-1 head but Smallblocks can run the cast iron W-2's?!

Call this guy: https://speierracingheads.com/index.html

He posts a lot of stuff in the Yellowbullet naturally aspirated tech section.

Yup big blocks must run factory castings. Small blocks can run aftermarket. Hemis are allowed for the big block but I don’t have the budget to do that. It’s supposed to be more of a budget minded class whereas the pro stock is a higher dollar class. We already get accused of cheating enough with the pro stock ford I help with. If the dodge runs good in its class I don’t want to hear about it.

You'd spend a good chunk of cash buying and reworking some clapped out old 286 heads to get them even be close in flow to some mildly reworked 088 BBC heads.

Alright. I wasn’t sure how well they would actually compare. I’m not sure which heads the Chevy guys are actually running

If they’re allowed to run rectangle port heads, there are plenty of good ones to pick from.

The ones I saw at the machine shop for a Chevy were rectangle. It made over 800 on there dyno

Yeah I don't think you'll have any luck making more power than the Chevy guys with those rules. Not so sure on the Ford engines, the SCJ heads for the 460 weren't all that great but the rectangle port BB Chevy heads are pretty decent. Ma Mopar wasn't that generous with the cylinder heads.

If your buddy is making 950 then you would have your work cut out for you to match that with a 485 inch Mopar. You would need an aftermarket block (good luck there) as well as a really good set of Indy heads. Maybe the full on -1 heads or step up to the 572 heads. I'm not positive which would be the best way to go to hit 950 hp at 485 cubes but you can figure that out in a few phone calls. It wouldn't be a cheap engine that is for sure. Probably start at $20,000 and go up from there. Dry sump, belt drive, big cam, big springs, super high quality valve train, etc.

Any good head porter that you pick can easily get 320 plus cfm out of a W2 Head with 2.08 valves. Put a big enough cam in it to use that cfm with a nicely ported W2 Victor intake and go have some fun.

Do the small blocks get some kind of weight break for the smaller displacement?

The 485 is in a different class so I won’t have to worry about it. Nope all trucks need to weigh 6,200 with the driver in it. No more

No more or no less?

Sorry. It can weigh less. You don’t want it to tho. You want as much weight on the front end as possible. A good pro stock truck you can pick the rear of the truck up with one guy. The weight of the sled makes the rear hook. The weight in the box on the truck helps keep the front end pinned down

So they need to weigh the same, as close to 6200 as possible. The big block is heavier where you want the weight. There's a cubic inch penalty of 40 inches with a small block and no breaks or advantage for running one.

Either I'm missing something or the question is why would you even consider a small block when the heaviest 472 big block you can find sounds like the best combo?

I need to make the most power possible within the restraints of the cylinder heads allowed. If the max wedge heads won’t make the power of the w2s then I’d rather not run them. And they are worth more to somebody restoring a max wedge car

I think the big block is the best option because of the +120 pounds on the front.

Wouldn’t the best bet here be to see if they allow the factory replacement max wedge head with a low deck 470 cu in? It seems like 800hp could be possible or more?

Are the replacement heads available anymore?

I don’t believe they’re available anymore but it doesn’t seem impossible that some could be found. Hopefully some people can chime in.

Ok. Thanks for the reply’s

The weight of the motor doesn’t really matter.
If you are running a lighter motor, it just allows you to add more weight to the weight bar at the very front of the truck.
You’re still working within the 6200lb max limit.

As for any advantage for the SB.......
Most of the rigs need wheel speed, so they turn a lot of rpm.
The OP is looking for 8000-8500 capability.

At those kinds of rpm, I think a 434 built around a Ritter block would have better reliability than a 472 built around a stock 400 block.

Correct. Even tho the big block is heavier on the front it still isn’t as far forward as we would like to have it. Getting the weight concentrated as far forward as possible helps use the mechanical advantage. Wheel speed is very important in truck pulling. Normally around 33-34mph is how fast the tires turn and the actual truck will do 27-30 pulling the sled with the slippage from the tires. Are max effort w2s capable of supporting 434 inches at 8,500?

SBM - 9.200" deck 48 degree siamesed block, 4.250" X 3.750" bore/stroke, 6.200" rods/flat top billet/boxed pistons/vertical gas ports, metric rings, small chamber W-2's, move the exhaust guide c/l over .050", 2.250"/1.550" valve combo, or biggest intake valve the throat will handle, Brett Miller intake & (see if he'd be interested in doing the heads too), dominator carb.

Technically.......The short answer is “no”.
But neither will the stock MW heads on a 472.

I doubt anything in that class is making peak power anywhere near that rpm.

The key is valvetrain stability.
The power doesn’t have to peak way up there....... but the motor has to be willing to go there.

Some of the puller customers we have run 8000+, but they all make peak power well below that.

We dynoed one for the 500” class last year. Really big bore, short stroke BBC.
Raptor heads & intake, .875” cam, Ti valves, etc........ peaked solidly below 8k....... but they run it 8500 in the truck.
Some of the guys with that type of combo turn them 9k....... this guy didn’t want to go that high.

One of the more competitive guys runs a tall deck 468” SBC with some old Busch series 18* heads.
They are grossly too small for that motor, but that thing still makes pretty good power...... and he runs it into the mid-8000’s in the truck.

I’m not sure what you’re budget is, but sometimes that ends up driving the decision making process on which direction to go.

Would it be better to go 9.6 deck on a small block just for intake choices? Okay. I wasn’t sure how bad the heads would limit the rpm capability. The ford I help with makes peak power around 7,600. And it will turn 9,000 if you let it. It also has very good heads on it. The engine builder epoxied the floors and raised the ports a bunch. I would have him do my heads but is getting older and he doesn’t want to port anymore

That’s what I was talking about........ so I see you understand how it works.

Brett Miller would be someone to talk to about the heads & intake situation for the SB.

Alright. Thank you. I will try and message him and see what his thoughts are. There is a short deck intake on eBay right now. It is the only one I have seen available

Brett has his own intake casting, not someone else's.

Okay. I knew he had one for the w7 on up. Didn’t know about the w2s. Does anybody have contact info for Brett? Thanks

You can send him a PM

W5DART66

Alright. Thank you

I have messed with a few restricted class pulling trucks, all had big block Chevy's. I have only seen two mopar powered trucks. both were big blocks, and only one was in a restricted class like you are talking about, He did use max wedge heads. Several years ago I built a NSS drag engine using the mopar reproduction heads, and I do my own porting work. I had a NHRA stock racer lend me an original cracked max wedge head that had been acid ported. The reproduction heads were not close the the acid ported head, but by measuring and working on mine I got them a lot better. I looked and can not find the flow numbers, it was several years ago. That engine with a factory maxwedge crossram in a 3,300 lb car ran 10.00 ET at 128 MPH With a mild .650 lift roller cam. the short block was a .060 440 with a stock crank and rods. So that was around 600HP at the flywheel. I think you might make the max wedge heads with a good valvetrain and camshaft make around 700HP I know enough about pulling that wheel speed can to some extent overcome the lack of horsepower, but not sure if that would be competitive. I would love to see some mopars at the truck pulls.

I built a 460 Ford for some guys with limited funds, it had to use similar rules as you mentioned. I told them they needed a lot more valvetrain, but they have been running it for several years, and changing out rocker arms, springs and an occasional bent valve is just standard maintenance for them. They seldom win a hook, but finished third in points a couple years by being about 10 foot from the leaders.

And they are having fun.

There are a few that I know of. One pulls in the same class I will be in. It is green with a white top. It’s a big block I know and runs very well. Won the Missouri state fair a few years back I believe. Not sure what heads he runs tho

The last run of the repro 518’s were the best flowing.

To give you an idea of where they can start out....... with 1.88/2.14 valves, a decent valve job, and a minor bowl blend...... you end up with:

4.375” bore, 3/4” radius plate, no tube on ex, 28” test pressure:
Lift—— in/ex
.100— 67/57
.200— 132/107
.300— 194/141
.400— 232/171
.500— 244/195
.600— 259/212
.700— 263/222

This set was after the version with the freeze plugs on the ends, but I don’t think it was the last version.

I never had the various versions in the shop at the same time, but how I remember it is, the last version had the chamber wall moved a bit farther away from the intake valves, and maybe a slightly revised short turn.
They have better flow ootb(270’s) and are easier to get to over 300cfm.
The version with the freeze plugs seemed to be harder to get to that point, and took some chamber work to get the mid-lift numbers to come around.

That is before any major port work?

Just the bowls.

The latest version was about 10-20cfm better with with that same amount of rework.

Looking through some old notes......
on a set I did that had the freeze plugs on the end(first version), with the seats/bowls cut, but before any porting........with 2.19/1.88 valves...... 255/184@.700
Opening up and blending the bowls and rolling the short turns got you to 282/225@.700
Clean up the rest of the runner, trim the guide bosses, sand roll finish.......brought the numbers to 300/238@.700

Edit- I found some more numbers from when I did that set that had the freeze plugs in the ends.

Ootb with Ferrea 2.08 intake valve and Manley 1.88 exhaust valve:

Lift—— in/ex
.100— 66/53
.200— 139/99
.300— 192/137
.400— 224/159
.500— 238/174
.600— 241/180
.700— 243/180

Blend bowls, minor roll of SSR, still ootb VJ:

Lift—— in/ex
.100— 64/55
.200— 143/105
.300— 196/138
.400— 241/167
.500— 253/191
.600— 259/204
.700— 263/217

Okay. Thanks. I know benches are just a tool. Is the port shape better on the w2 to where it would make more power at 300cfm vs a 518 at 300cfm

Since the platforms are just different animals...... I’m not really going to go there.

However, the w2 would be smaller than the 518 if they’re both flowing 300...... so it’s a more “efficient” port.
But that doesn’t really answer the question imo.

One thing to look out for on the MP 518’s is core shift in the chambers.

I’ve seen them where even the largest bore gasket(4.600) still overhangs the chambers, when they’re not properly positioned relative to the head bolt and dowel holes.
They haven’t been available in a while........ and I know of a couple people who paid pretty good money for some bare castings.

I will say this......
You had mentioned 700hp?
I don’t think that number would be too hard to reach with a 472 and the 518M heads.

A normal port job on some 286’s with big valves will also flow 300, but the exhaust ports aren’t great on those heads...... and they seem to be pretty crack prone when pushed hard.

Thank you for the info. I will weigh my options out and maybe start looking for a set of 518ms