4500 on a 4150 intake?

Anyone know if the flange is big enough on a trick flow or victor low deck intake to accept a 4500 carb if I fill the holes and re-tap it?

Just lay a 4500 gasket on it and run a sharpie around the inside of it and see how it looks.

Yeah, I don’t have one. Was hoping to find the answer before I ordered one up.

Can you run a 4150/4500 spacer or are you fighting hood clearance? Can you weld aluminum? Because...on the 383 Victor the bolt holes on the 4500 are very close to the edge of the casting. Besides that.....the 4150/4500 bolt holes overlap. Correction......there is sufficient sealing surface after opening the the mounting area to 4500 throttle bore size. It's just the bolt holes will be very close to the edge of the casting and may break out.

Ok, yeah hood clearance is an issue. I run a tm6 currently with a 2” adaptor. I wouldn’t mind trying a modern intake but i won’t have the room to run an adaptor.

I see, make sure you see the correction on my previous post.

Thanks Jim

Jim, didn’t you “do” one of the victors like that?
4150 to 4500?

I thought I saw you guys do something like that but I don’t recall if it was a BB or SB.

Find a M1 4500 intake instead. The M1 4500 will work better than a converted Trick Flow or Victor.

We did it to a 383 Victor. But we used a 4150/4500 4-into-1, 2" HVH spacer and opened the intake manifold carburetor mounting flange to very nearly 4500 throttle bore size and matched the 4150 side of the 2" spacer to the intake manifold. I keep holding on to it in hopes of someday running it on a standard port sized 400 based stroker. I sold the Indy Dominator single plane and the 2" spacer we used for 787 HP on the pump gas 451, so this 383 Victor is my next best bet.

Andy, I thought without major porting the M1 was poor?

One thing to keep in mind with the Victor or TF intake is, they don’t have the carb pad angle “corrected”.
So in a typical door car where the engine is tipped back.......with carb pad corrected the carb sits level.

With the uncorrected carb pad, the carb will be angled/tipped back..... parallel to the crankshaft.

This can impact how the air filter/hood clearance situation plays out.

In 1990, before there were any 4500 std port intakes available(if there were any, I wasn’t aware of them), I built one out of a Holley SD.

Nice looking work Dwayne, how well did it work?

The M1 isn't a great intake but the M1 4500 works really well. (If the engine needs it) Very few people have any experience with the M1 4500 since it just wasn't a very popular intake. It should be perfect for you application though since a Dominator carb will bolt on plus it is fairly low profile. The only challenge will be to find one.

The real question is what does your engine need. A Trick Flow intake with a 1050 size 4150 might make more power on your engine than a Dominator on a M1 4500. Nobody knows the answer until you test it since it depends on a complex relationship between engine size, camshaft design and cylinder flow. I did a lot of testing with my low deck 470 engine and eventually picked up about 100 hp over my first test results but I had to try multiple cams, intakes, carbs, etc. Nobody knew what the recipe was and much of the advice I got along the way was wrong.

Ok

I believe there was a LD M1 for the 4500 listed either on moparts or forbbodiesonly. I put one on my wagon and it worked real well. I plan on doing some minor blending and clean up and I'm sure it will be even better.

Here it is https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/m1-b-intake-and-scat-rods.189979/

Buy that low deck M1 4500 for $300, good deal in my opinion for that intake. You might even have room for a 1/2" or 1" spacer, and I think those will help too. A 1" tapered 4-hole spacer typically works well.

Back around 2003, I welded the inner runners of a low deck TM-6 to port out the notches, and that thing flowed great on the flow bench. Those notches suck... It was a 4150 intake, and I ran a 2" 4500 adapter.

I was thinking about welding the notches. The TM6 runs good with the dominator. I was just looking for a little more. I sent the guy a pm on the M1 yesterday.

Wilson makes a 1 inch 4500/4150 adapter if that would help with hood clearance

Maybe 17-18 years ago I had a pump gas 493 on the dyno with a roller cam and std port SR heads (mild porting by MM.....about 300cfm).

I tested a std M1 with a spacer and my good ported 850 annular, and a 1050/4500 on a 2” adapter, and then swapped the intake for a M1/4500 with no spacers.

I’d have to see if I could dig out the sheets, but my recollection is there wasn’t much difference in power between the 3 tests...... maybe like 7-10hp.

That motor was in the 660-670hp range.

There are some manifold tests in this old archived thread(along with a pic of the “Holley SD-4500” before I cut a bunch of extra “stuff” off it).
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/8.html

There are two piece adapters out there that are 1in thick that are a little cleaner. But, the cost is a little on the high side. I use a similar plate to go the opposite way to run a 4150 on my M1 4500 intake. I built mine rather than buy. I used some scrap 1/2 in aluminum plate and it works great.

The pic is what is on Ebay and not my handy work. But mine is real close copy.

That’s a clever idea.

You could open up the top of a 4150 intake as much as was easy/practical, then take that adapter and open it up enough to match.

From a power standpoint, the HVH 4500/4150 super sucker/adapter works well on a Victor intake...... but makes for a pretty tall combo.

That's pretty sneaky. Thank you for posting that, I might be able to use it.

I actually like that idea, might be able to pull that off with the trick flow. I don’t mind doing some grinding to open it up.

And this is how mine sits with the adapter and a 1in 4 hole spacer. I just recently found the PDH piece on Ebay and didn't know they existed. I was determined to run the M1 and worked out the idea with my Dad (the true machinist) and he did the mill work. It flat works as I am just a shade under 585hp @6000 with a stock stroke 440 with this combo. My Victor was <1% better than the M1 on the pump, so it stayed. Plus, I like the carb sitting level vs the Victor's angle.

I have the top plate attachment holes 90* to the 4500 mounting holes with round counter sunk head bolts for both plates. I use a 4150 gasket between the two plates along with some RTV to make sure all the voids are filled.

If I had a mill at my disposal I would whip out a few more top plates to try as the combos could be limitless.

It’s always better to not go off memory when possible....... I found the sheets.

M1 4150 w-1” open spacer & ported annular 850 = 632tq@4700, 660hp@6400

M1 4150 w-2” 4500/4150 adapter with new HP1050/8896 = 637tq@4800, 673hp@6300

M1 4500, no spacer with new HP1050/8896 = 635tq@4800, 669hp@6300.

So, on that particular combo, the 4150 intake with the added plenum volume of the 2” adapter was the winner by a very slim margin.
The 4500 intake was bought for hood clearance issues(customer wanted to run a 4500 carb, but it wouldn’t fit with the 4150 intake and 2” adapter”.
All 3 combos used right at 900cfm at the top of the pull(6700).

Since those three tests yielded very similar results...... there’s not much fun in that........
So, here’s three different intakes......

The motor is a 446 with dome pistons, stage 6 heads(owner ported) and a 280@.050 bracket race SFT cam.

First test is a TM7 with the spacer plates for the RB block and stage 6 heads, the Moroso 2” adapter and a 1090 King Demon(4500) carb.

The second test is my SD/4500 on the spacer plates, no additional carb spacer, same 1090 carb.

Third test is the MP full width Stage 6 4150 single plane intake(no spacers), with the 2” carb adapter, same 1090 carb.
(Where did the TQ go??)

Last test, pulled the 1090 and adapter off and installed customers Demon 850, no additional carb spacers.

All the full width Stage 6 intakes have MW sized runners. There are 4 versions.... 4150 and 4500 for both std and MW size.
Even the one for std port heads and 4150, like what was used for this test has MW sized runners.
The difference being that the port exits at the gasket are shrunk down to std port size on the ones for std port heads.

As you can see...... the ports CSA changing in size from MW size in the manifold down to std port size in the heads can do some strange things to the power curve.

The SD/4500 was the winner of this shootout

Looks like the SD did well. At 4900 the tm7 and SD killed the other setups.

It may be hard to read, but this was a direct comparison of the M1 with a HVH 4500-4150 adapter vs my sandwich plate adapter. Both ran the same 1in 4 hole spacer. The HVH was down on power but pretty equal with the torque at 573 and a little earliler in the pull.

Dwayne did the valve job on my heads and picked out the SFT cam.

I ran an M1 4500 intake on my 451 that I had in my 65 Belvedere. Pump gas deal with an Indy SR head ultradyne .640" solid cam ran low/mid 10's driving it to the track at 3700lbs.

I did a bunch of intake testing on my 470 engines and eventually came to the conclusion that for peak power the M1 4500 was the best standard port intake available. But it did require extensive porting to get there. That was the result on that engine, a different engine might want a different CSA and plenum size. But the Dominator carb always made a little more power than a big 4150 carb and the 4500 plenum always made more power than a 4150 + adapter so eventually I settled on the M1 4500 + a Dominator as the best combo. I usually used a 2 inch tall 4 to 1 merge type adapter but most cars aren't going to have room for a beast like that.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/test-intake-manifolds-carburetors-440-stroker-search-ultimate-power/

Always an interesting topic with many results. My old mild RB stage VI mill I had the RB M1 with spacers and a Holley 850 4150. Ran that for years before swapping to a Stage VI 4500 and an ebay Carb Shop 1050. Picked up 5-6 mph and trap rpm went from 6200 to 6800. Dropped to a 4.10 gear to get the rpm in check and picked up a bit more. Prob the same UD-nf69 .640 grind Al had

A little off topic here, Andy, why did you guys make the shear plate/open spacer package so tall?

Because we could.