Moparts

new distributor

Posted By: 8urvette

new distributor - 04/07/20 02:06 AM

Hey,

I am looking for a new distributor for my 383, med aggressive cam, aluminum heads, etc...

I have been running a locked out 440 source distributor but am thinking i need something that can fluctuate the timing a bit (I borrowed this from my race car.)

I am looking at the hyper spark distributor from holley. https://www.holley.com/products/fue...er_efi/hyperspark_ignition/parts/565-305

The plan is to upgrade to sniper efi in a few months assuming things settle down..... this distributor will give me timing control with the sniper. However i do not have the sniper currently and want to know if this distributor will work with a MSD 6al setup for now, does anyone know?
Posted By: AndyF

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 02:17 AM

The Hyperspark is a locked out distributor. All it has inside is a sensor that tells the EFI system what the RPM is and where #1 is. It won't work with your MSD system so you'll need to wait until you install the Sniper before you can install the Hyperspark. The Sniper + Hyperspark is a great combination but you have to add them together.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 03:20 AM

I'm still running a Firecore distributor with an MSD 6AL and it works very well with my engine.
Gus beer
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 03:34 AM

okay, thank you very much for the info.

I am just trying not to buy 2 distributors. The one i have now either starts the car great but has no top end, or has great top but won't start for sh!t. also it seems to run the exhaust very hot, im thinking this is too late of timing causing more to burn in the exhaust than it should.
anybody have a good timing recommendation for a mild 383?
Posted By: madscientist

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
okay, thank you very much for the info.

I am just trying not to buy 2 distributors. The one i have now either starts the car great but has no top end, or has great top but won't start for sh!t. also it seems to run the exhaust very hot, im thinking this is too late of timing causing more to burn in the exhaust than it should.
anybody have a good timing recommendation for a mild 383?


You need to get the distributor AND the box on a distributor machine and set the curve and account for the retard in the box. Once you fix the curve, what you have will work.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by madscientist
Originally Posted by 8urvette
okay, thank you very much for the info.

I am just trying not to buy 2 distributors. The one i have now either starts the car great but has no top end, or has great top but won't start for sh!t. also it seems to run the exhaust very hot, im thinking this is too late of timing causing more to burn in the exhaust than it should.
anybody have a good timing recommendation for a mild 383?


You need to get the distributor AND the box on a distributor machine and set the curve and account for the retard in the box. Once you fix the curve, what you have will work.
iagree
You nee to check the timing at idle RPM and then check it again at or above 5000 RPM to see what it has at idle and rev up scope twocents
It sounds like your current distributor may have one weight stuck and that is not letting the mechanical advance work properly scope
I like to see from 12 to 16 degrees advance before top dead center at idle and right at 34 to no more than 36 degrees advance before top dead center revved up up :twocents
Stock Mopar distributor are not hard to fix or modify to make them better for performance use, I do my own and have had really good luck with them, my current S/P car runs n the high 8s at 150+ MPH with one I modified up
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 03:45 PM

The distributor is locked, no advance, nothing.
The original had an issue that would not keep timing. It would bounce all around at idle up to 20 degrees +/-. Then didnt advance much to all of a sudden about 50*.
Trying to figure out the issues, we replaced that one with what is currently in, the locked version. It settled the timing issue but there is no advance.
Maybe just buy a mopar distributor in the meantime to work out the other bugs in the car.???
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 04:24 PM

sounds like you need either a start retard or a properly re-curved centrifugal distributor.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 11:32 PM

okay, as of now I found a 440 source distributor sitting on a shelf at my parents house.
I installed it and set the timing at idle when warm at 12* BTDC

The car starts up, idles nice. i slightly tuned the carb based on vacuum and idle speed.

Here is the issue, it gets real hot. like 240* hot. The radiator is 3 core aluminum one.

There is a pusher electric fan that moves roughly 2000 CFM, I did the water burp thing with the giant cup sitting on the radiator.

I pulled the thermostat and checked it out with a thermometer in a bot on the stove it opens fully around 190*

is it a bad water pump????

Attached picture coronet.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/07/20 11:48 PM

Advance the timing.. try it at 18* to start with.. open the cap and see if its moving water
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 12:07 AM

will do! thank you.

about to eat dinner then ill give it a go.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 01:10 AM

okay,

so timing at 15*, 18* no change
I see water kinda move through the radiator when the T-stat open but it certainly doesn't rush. I have another water pump sitting on my 540 that isn't running at the moment.


I may steal that and see if the problem gets resolved.

this is my dads car... he said he has had this issue before. he said it always overheated. This is the 3rd radiator and the same pump and housing. aftermarket aluminum, but heck maybe its no good.

Thoughts?
Posted By: madscientist

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
okay,

so timing at 15*, 18* no change
I see water kinda move through the radiator when the T-stat open but it certainly doesn't rush. I have another water pump sitting on my 540 that isn't running at the moment.


I may steal that and see if the problem gets resolved.

this is my dads car... he said he has had this issue before. he said it always overheated. This is the 3rd radiator and the same pump and housing. aftermarket aluminum, but heck maybe its no good.

Thoughts?


High flow water pump
High flow thermostat
Speed up the water pump. Looks like the water pump pulley is pretty big. The pump should turn faster than the crank.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 02:11 AM

I bought and used aluminum radiator for my old Duster, it worked fine for the first summer at 160F to 165 F at road speeds above 70 MPH with 4.10 gears and 315x60x15 M/T ET street radials, the next spring it was running above 210 in the spring with the same conditions panic
I called a radiator shop that I trusted and they said bring it in, they must have clean it or something else that made it work fine again for that summer and fall. The next year the same thing, my message is some aluminum radiators must corrode or cake up inside when sitting during the winter up here whiney shruggy I use a good brand of antifreeze(good too -40F) and I think I added a water pump lube and rust preventer in with the anti freeze.
I did the garden hose test in the top inlet with the radiator cap on and the bottom outlet opened and it flowed all the water my 5/8 garden hose would flow into it at full blast shruggy
Maybe someone on here knows a good aluminum radiator cleaner to use to flush them out that will help them cool better luck help
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 02:51 AM

So I stole the high flow or high volume water pump from my 540, swapped it over. I drained the coolant from the bottom hose in the radiator, so the block should have also been pretty empty.

I refilled with pure water and ran it with the bubble burp jug on the radiator. I would squeeze the upper hose until no more bubbles came out. The water moved much more this time. It hit 220 and stayed there, the fan would come on late ( bad thermo switch?) And hold it between 210 and 220 sitting in the drive way.

New plan is to add water water or coolant and see if it can drop to 200* and stay there.

I appreciate everyone's input and assistance. It is great to have you all as a resource.
Posted By: moparx

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 03:51 PM

if your pusher fan REALLY moves 2000cfm, your problem is there. you need at least 3000+ cfm to even get close to cooling anything for any length of time.
most aftermarket fans are FAR from accurate on their CFM ratings.
you need a bigger fan, one that draws lots of amps, to stay cool.
and since yours is a pusher, [pullers are WAY more efficient] it needs to be bigger than you think.
just my opinion, your results will vary.
beer
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 04:10 PM

Okay, i have several fans some much nicer than this one, but this one fit very easily. LOL.

I have a really nice fan with shroud but it didn't want to fit. I also have a few 2 core radiators, that will allow this big fan to fit as a puller.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/08/20 11:58 PM

Another work day done and no closer to it running cooler.

I swapped the radiator from a top to bottom flow to cross flow style, the top to bottom is 3- 5/8" tubes inside, and the cross flow is 2- 1" cores.

I added a spal fan that flows a unreal amount of air... i can feel it pulling air from a 14"-16" in front of the radiator.

i turned the idle up to 1000-1100 and richened the carb. it stinks when idling.

it hits 220 and drop back to 205 and lives in between 210*-220*

What gives????

The top of the radiator (the return) is very hot by the time it makes it way down to the bottom inlet i can hold my hand on the radiator.
I have tried multiple gauges, sending units.. they are all very close.


Cam timing be off???? any ideas?

HELP



Attached picture newrad.jpg
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 12:05 AM

Are these tests being done in the driveway or from driving the car?
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 12:10 AM

idling in the driveway
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 12:17 AM

Go drive it now like you normally drive it to see what is does on the road now twocents scope
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 12:20 AM

What are your pulley diameters..measure them
wave
Posted By: madscientist

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by MR_P_BODY
What are your pulley diameters..measure them
wave



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The pump MUST turn faster than the crank.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 12:50 AM

I ordered some trans fluid. And a new pan gasket, it has a slight leak. Should be here tomorrow. I'll tear drive then. I will go measured the pulleys after dinner.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 01:11 AM

okay just measured the crank pulley its OD is 6.5"
the water pump pulley OD 6.7"

uhhhh, that can't be good.
Posted By: madscientist

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
okay just measured the crank pulley its OD is 6.5"
the water pump pulley OD 6.7"

uhhhh, that can't be good.



That’s bad. Very bad.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 01:40 AM

All these aftermarket billet pullies have a larger water pump pulley than crank pulley.

What gives?? shruggy
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 01:45 AM

Go drive it now up
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 01:54 AM

its 2 quarts low on tranny fluid!!!! I will drive tomorrow!
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 05:43 AM

Maybe the better reply would have been ASAP blushwhistling
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/09/20 11:26 PM

Swapped the leaky pan gasket for a new leaky pan gasket mad

Took it for a test drive. Trans works great, shifts well. Holds gears downshifts when asked 2. All good.


Still runs at 210*+

Also my exhaust seems to be insanely hot. It's not glowing despite how the picture looks, but it sure has rainbowed... this is back about 2 feet from the rear axle. I'm really starting to think something is seriously wrong with this motor.

Attached picture 20200409_161805.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/10/20 12:01 AM

Your cam timing could be off.. do you have the stuff to check it
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/10/20 01:18 AM

A degree wheel? I have that, is there a less invasive way to do? Or does the timing chain have to come off?

Seems I could do based on the balancer and the micrometer thingy, with a degree wheel on the crank balancer.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/10/20 01:37 AM

You can just pull the valve cover and do it... put the wheel on but you need to find TDC... you can do
that in the #1 cyl turn the crank both ways to find TDC if you know what I mean then use the rocker
to find the max lift before and after(I use... .050both sided of max lift) then see what you have
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/10/20 03:37 AM

the car has hydraulic lifters...

can i borrow one of my solid roller lifters from my race engine for this? I don't see any reason i can't, but i just wanna get a 2nd opinion.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/10/20 03:39 AM

If your using a hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifters you need to use a solid flat tappet lifter, any roller will mess the readings up on cam timing and maybe the LSA also, maybe not though on that confused
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/10/20 03:42 AM

so drop pop rocker off and support the pushrod so it moves in a straight line and set it up on the tip of the push rod then. ok.


ill fab up some silly metal bracket to hold the push rod.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/10/20 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
the car has hydraulic lifters...

can i borrow one of my solid roller lifters from my race engine for this? I don't see any reason i can't, but i just wanna get a 2nd opinion.


Yes you can,,, big deal if it starts at a different point.. it just needs to repeat(not stick in the bore)
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 12:39 AM

I got to check the cam timing today.

i checked it 3 separate times readjusting the dial indicator each time- just to check and see if my results were repeatable.


The cam card call for the cam to be installed at 112* intake centerline

3 times I came up with 114*

what will this make the engine do?

also here are the cam specs-
intake- exhaust
.505 .514

duration at .050
230 240


I think this cam may be a bit 2 big for this motor.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 12:46 AM

You may want to advance it a few degrees to pick up some torque
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by MR_P_BODY
You may want to advance it a few degrees to pick up some torque
wave


im confused i thought it was advanced??? more or the other way?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 01:13 AM

No.. thats retarded.. the company wanted it installed at 112... the smaller the number is advancing
it... the way it is now would be more for a nitrous engine... I would put it in at 108 to no more than 110
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 01:53 AM

will that get me more vacuum at idle?

will this help is not overheat?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 02:42 AM

Not really on either of those issues.. it could reduce some heat.. but on the heat I think you
have another issue.. it could be as simple as the pump not turning fast enough.. do you run
a shroud on the fan.. are the fan blades just in from the edge of the shroud
wave
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 02:49 AM

Which lifter, the first one at the front of the driver side or the second one from the front, where you checking the cam timing from?
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Which lifter, the first one at the front of the driver side or the second one from the front, where you checking the cam timing from?


so i actually did it four times... the first time i did the very front cylinder, i quickly realized this was the exhaust valve.

I then repeated 3x on the intake valve.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by MR_P_BODY
Not really on either of those issues.. it could reduce some heat.. but on the heat I think you
have another issue.. it could be as simple as the pump not turning fast enough.. do you run
a shroud on the fan.. are the fan blades just in from the edge of the shroud
wave


this is what i am running at this time.

Attached picture fan shroud.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 02:23 PM

You need to answer a few questions.. you checked the cam.. did you use a solid lifter... your big
issue seems to be temp.. did you change any of the pulleys... things dont change if you dont
do anything
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 02:48 PM

I used the hydraulic lifters but removed the rockers, I made a little brace to hold the pushrods in place. The dial indicator sat straight above the pushrod.

I have a set of pulleys that is different, they are a 1 to 1 ratio. I will try them next.
Could it really be that simple?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 02:56 PM

You need to use a solid lifter.. on the pulleys 1 to 1 isnt gonna cut it.. you need to get the pump speed up
those pulleys are more for racing than the street
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by MR_P_BODY
You need to use a solid lifter.. on the pulleys 1 to 1 isnt gonna cut it.. you need to get the pump speed up
those pulleys are more for racing than the street
wave


okay I have made a solid lifter from an old socket. it measures .900 OD. I welded a cap on it and ground it flat. I marked it so i can verify it is not spinning when doing this.

Here is my question now

Is this advanced on the cam 4*???

Attached picture cam+4?.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 05:50 PM

I believe so.. but I never trust those marks.. I have had cams that were way off using them.. I
always degree the cam to make sure its right
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 06:01 PM

i will degree it. I just wanted to make sure this is proper before try.

so if i had it at 114* it should now be 110*?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 06:40 PM

I've had several timing sets like this one, Cloyes , that the upper cam gear was off a half a tooth, it would ailn straight up and down with any of the crank gear alignments marks. They were all off a half tooth work scope
If yours are that way move the cam gear clockwise so the cam dot is to the left of the crank gear looking at it from the front scope up
One tooth is right at 12 degrees so if you want use the 0 dot for no additional cam advance twocents The reason being some of those timing stes have two camshaft degrees advance built in a nd some don't shruggy
Same thing on the cams on built in advance shruggy
Good luck, you should be able to feel the difference on getting the cam dial in and advanced boogie grin
Let us know how it goes wrench
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
I've had several timing sets like this one, Cloyes , that the upper cam gear was off a half a tooth, it would ailn straight up and down with any of the crank gear alignments marks. They were all off a half tooth work scope
If yours are that way move the cam gear clockwise so the cam dot is to the left of the crank gear looking at it from the front scope up
One tooth is right at 12 degrees so if you want use the 0 dot for no additional cam advance twocents The reason being some of those timing stes have two camshaft degrees advance built in a nd some don't shruggy
Same thing on the cams on built in advance shruggy
Good luck, you should be able to feel the difference on getting the cam dial in and advanced boogie grin
Let us know how it goes wrench



i am now getting 118.5* using that 4* mark on the crank gear.

I am going to pull it part and set it to zero and tray again... what the heck????? panic
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 07:02 PM

118.5 - 12.0 =106.5 grin scope
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 07:23 PM

i pulled it apart set it back at zero.

went through the process 3x and get a variance of .5*.

I now get 108 to 108.5* on cam centerline. 0 according to the cam specs is supposed to be 112*

What ever, if it truly is at 108ISH i am happy and will run it as it is.

Next question, should my intake valve really be starting to open 30* before TDC?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/12/20 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
i pulled it apart set it back at zero.
Next question, should my intake valve really be starting to open 30* before TDC?
Only if you run baby cams whistling
Big cams starting opening @.050 from 40 BTDC to 55 BTDC with no advance shruggy
The LSA affects the intake and exhaust lobes opening and closing, a cam that is ground on a 112 LSA with 250 @ .050 on both lobes will have the intake opening @ .050 further away from TDC than the same lobes ground on a 108 LSA scope shruggy
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/13/20 02:45 AM

we will see tomorrow if it fires up and runs. I found an assortment of pulleys at my parents from my old cars.

I have stripped their home of almost all my old car parts to get his running. lucky them, they only had to store my stuff for 20 years before it became useful to them!

Cab and Mr. P Thank you for your help. it has been great. SO FAR....
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/13/20 10:43 PM

no change.
I swapped out the water pump pulley that is 1.25" smaller diameter. i think it is something like a 24% change in water pump rpms.

NO FRIGGIN CHANGE.

Timing is at 15 BTDC, its a 180* thermostat. Should I go to a 160*? would it help? could it help?


HELP

help
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/13/20 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
no change.
I swapped out the water pump pulley that is 1.25" smaller diameter. i think it is something like a 24% change in water pump rpms.

NO FRIGGIN CHANGE.

Timing is at 15 BTDC, its a 180* thermostat. Should I go to a 160*? would it help? could it help?


HELP

help


IF your moving enough water it should help.. how does it start now.. I am wondering if you have
blockage in the block or radiator.. for now pull the stat right out and see what it does.. you could
have a blockage in the block or radiator
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/13/20 11:03 PM

I did a hose test on both.

Garden hose full on - is not restricted in either the block or radiator.

And this is the 3rd radiator in the car with the same thing.

Any idea what a clutch fan moves for CFM? or a flex fan?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/13/20 11:23 PM

I just use a HHR(chevy) fan and shroud and dont have any problems on my SB street rod...
take your stat out and try it
wave
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 12:20 AM

What water pump your running?
I had bad luck with a 440 source high volume one.
Posted By: 440_Offroader

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 01:39 AM

On that note, does it have a 440 source water pump housing? Didn't they have a flow problem years ago with one of the passages?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 02:21 AM

Have you verified your actual water temps compared to what YOUR gauge is saying?
I had one the high dollar Auto Meter mechanical water temp gauges read 40 F higher than the actual water temps where in the car, I found that out at the races when I stuck my hand on the radiator top when the Auto Meter gauge in the car was reading 140 F when the radiator was cool, not hot. I stuck my finger into the coolant circulating from the radiator cap opening and it was not hot, barely body temps shock Murphy hates us hot rodders and racers whiney
AKA, when it doesn't make since there is usually a reason for that work scope twocents
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 02:49 AM

I agree with Cab... its time to start testing.. if this pump or the housing has a flaw you need
to find it.. we know based on what you said before.. the engine has had 2 pumps on it and
that didnt correct the issue... you tried changing the timing around and that didnt correct it..
its had a few radiators...if 440 had a pump or housing issue(I dont know sense I dont do
much on 440s) then maybe you need to check it.. as a check and your gauge accuracy with
thermocouples or another test item... this should be a start... and ask question before
you jump
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 02:28 PM

The original housing and pump are both 440 source- and they are from around 2007-2009 which according to the new research i have done, is the time they had bad flowing units out there. The pump I swapped in was an earlier unit from maybe 06' which cooled a 540 fine.

I have the housing on my race motor that I will pull off and check out, and i will pull the 440 source unit off the 383 and inspect and replace since I have another unit that did cool a BBM.

as far as verifying the temps, There have been numerous gauges from cheap temp mechanical units to what i have in now, all have had different senders.
I can feel the heat coming from it, it is HOT!!!!

The housing is one thing I have not changed yet.

The 383 was originally my motor in my barracuda. It worked in my. I pulled a bunch of stuff off it when I went to a 540, including the water pump and housing. They got transferred to the 540. I gave my dad the 383 years later when he bought this coronet. He bought some parts for it to complete it...

Man.... I hope this is it.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 02:54 PM

I have a cooling issue as well on my 511 with filled block. If I use a flex fan and shroud, it cools fine in the driveway and driving down the road. When I installed the twin spal 12" fans(1100cfm/ea) with an aluminum enclosed shroud, it would cool in the driveway fine, but out on the road would run 218* in the heat. I have since installed 12" spal paddle fans(1600cfm/ea) hoping to pull more air thru the radiator. I think these enclosed aluminum shrouds like yours and mine don't allow enough air flow. My shroud has free flow holes in it as well. Waiting for the summer heat to see how it does. Again, when I reinstall the flex fan and shroud it over cools, so there is an issue with that enclosed shroud or maybe you need a bigger better fan. Look at A1 Electric, they have a nice spec chart of all the spal fans they sell. Hope this helps.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 03:28 PM

Here are the 2 water pump housings...


The one with the small amount of orange in the pic is off the 383. it appears to actually be a mopar part... HMMM...

I ran a straight edge across the face of both pump housings and dropped a caliper down to measure where it touches the angled part for the impeller to sit. The rusty one has a closer tolerance by about 8 thousandths... it also has smaller coolant passages.

Do i just replace everything??????

Attached picture 20200414_081201.jpg
Attached picture 20200414_081156.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 03:56 PM

It might be a smart move to replace it all.. just a guess here.. I sure would like to
see one of the housing that had the known issue.. on my SB stuff I run a motor plate
and have the pump on top of the plate so there is a pretty good space where the pump
mounts
EDIT
You also need to get ALL of the air out of the system... I put a bleed on mine
wave
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 05:00 PM

lets see pics of the pump
Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 05:12 PM

It sure would suck to find out the problem is just a lean carburetor.
twocents

Originally Posted by 8urvette

Do i just replace everything??????
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/14/20 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by @#$%&*!
It sure would suck to find out the problem is just a lean carburetor.
twocents

Originally Posted by 8urvette

Do i just replace everything??????



Funny side note... already been there and done that.


OK, 440source housing and pump from my 540.

Takes a lot longer to get to temp, then hits 220, comes down to 180 and fan shuts off. Heats back up and hit 220 fan is on and brings it down to 205* just sitting idling in my carport. Stays at 205 for a long while. And its 15* warmer today than yesterday.

Conclusion at this point is the smaller port 440source housing has tighter tolerance to the pump veins, thus moving more coolant.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/15/20 03:22 AM

this is the style of pump I put in. Should i replace it with a Blade style pump????

Seems all the big brands are not using this style... maybe just swap it out to see if it helps?

Attached picture pump.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/15/20 03:45 AM

Myself I like the blade ones better.. I would look for a 8 blade.. thats the pump for AC
wave
Posted By: jb500

Re: new distributor - 04/15/20 01:11 PM

What type of T-Stat do you have in this? Not temp, but type.

Try a high flow Robert Shaw design (Milodon, Flowkooler, Chrysler OEM) and see if it drops the temps.

This one part change made all the difference in my cooling woes I was chasing for quite some time.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/15/20 01:27 PM

That's the same style pump I had and fought similar problems switch to the Milodon 16260 high volume and my problems went away.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/16/20 03:45 PM

Okay, milodon water pump ordered and new high flow t stat. Should be here tomorrow. Will install and road test again.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/16/20 05:14 PM


Looking forward to the results
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 12:13 AM

i checked the new million pump in the mopar perforce housing. I used a clay like substance on the bevel where the impeller sits closely 2. it is about 1/8th" thick. the blades made no indentation at all so i doubled it up and tried again. they barely touched the clay at almost .25" !!!! that seems like a seriously huge gap between the impeller and housing, this was also without a gasket!

I checked it on the 440 source housing, and you can see it kisses the clay at 1/8" and smashed into it at 1/4".

I ran the 440 source housing, (smaller ports) the new milodon pump and a new highflown 160* T stat.

At idle in my carport it comes to 170* the t stat opens and it drops to 150*ish. when it warms that water up the stat opens again and hot water from the rad coms in and a few seconds later at about 210* the fan comes on and brings everything back down to 170-180* idling fan goes off and then on and so on. it works in the carport.

I took it for a test drive, it hung out around 200*-210* driving. seemed fine there, when i came to a stop it would slowly come down to 190-180* start driving again and it would go back to 200-210*. Maybe it isn't the best radiator? maybe the small ports on the housing don't flow enough water? maybe its a combination of it all.


Now why does it backfire through the carb? from just off idle if i stab it at all it back fires through the carb, i can ease into it no problem.

timing it at 15* at idle. im more of computer tuning guy, never been any good with these carbs. Any advise or insight on this one>???
Posted By: 440_Offroader

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 12:31 AM

Sounds like it's going lean if backfiring through the carb. Maybe need more accelerator pump shot...
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 12:40 AM

Is there a way to diagnose this? Or just swap and try again?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 01:39 AM

Basically thats a trial and error thing.. your timing is locked still right.. advance the timing up to 20*
and try that first
wave
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
Is there a way to diagnose this? Or just swap and try again?

Test, test and test some more until you get it perfect wrench up
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 02:09 AM

Timing is no longer locked. Just a billet style distributor
Posted By: jb500

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 02:16 AM

What temp trigger do you have it set at to switch the fan on? Where is the probe located? In the coolant flow or in the air flow?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by jb500
What temp trigger do you have it set at to switch the fan on? Where is the probe located? In the coolant flow or in the air flow?


I run mine in the coolant where the probe sees good flow I think I have temp set at 160*-170*
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:04 AM

my fan trigger is in the coolant, it says 185* but its a bit off....
who sells a nice adjustable unit?
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:18 AM

Is the bypass plugged in the housing or really small?
Did you accidentally put stat in upside down?

I agree the pop thru carb sounds lean.
Posted By: jb500

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:24 AM

It sounds as though the new pump and T-stat are doing their job. The rad is doing it's job of exchanging heat as the temps do drop. Double check the sending unit for its on/off temp. Once that side of the equation is dialed in, you can work on the timing and AFR to finish the problem. An adjustable fan controller may be the ticket here as well??

Also, the last pic you have of your rad shows a shroud. Is it sealed up tight to the rad, or does it have some way for air to move through and then out at speed??
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:26 AM

t stat went in correctly, it was labeled grin

ill check the pump arm tomorrow and see if i have any cams for it.



You guys are awesome, I do not know what I would have done without all of your help!!!
boogie
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
my fan trigger is in the coolant, it says 185* but its a bit off....
who sells a nice adjustable unit?


I bought mine at the local auto parts store... its a reputable part supplier.. I can get the
part number in the morning
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:59 AM

i did a quick search on the temp fan controller. it says it turns the fan on at 185*-215*. quite the range.

but yes, id like to be able to kick that on, maybe a manual toggle switch too? how do I do an ignition switched ground manual switch? LOL.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
i did a quick search on the temp fan controller. it says it turns the fan on at 185*-215*. quite the range.

but yes, id like to be able to kick that on, maybe a manual toggle switch too? how do I do an ignition switched ground manual switch? LOL.


Thats pretty easy.. you run a wire from a positive source to the hot on the controller and ground the negative...
I have one on my hot rod for when I run at the track.. if you wanted to you can have it on a timer so it shuts
off on its own
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by jb500
It sounds as though the new pump and T-stat are doing their job. The rad is doing it's job of exchanging heat as the temps do drop. Double check the sending unit for its on/off temp. Once that side of the equation is dialed in, you can work on the timing and AFR to finish the problem. An adjustable fan controller may be the ticket here as well??

Also, the last pic you have of your rad shows a shroud. Is it sealed up tight to the rad, or does it have some way for air to move through and then out at speed??


The shroud is riveted tight to the radiator. I don't think much if any air can escape it.

this is the "restricted" 440 source housing

Attached picture 20200414_085958.jpg
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 02:56 PM

this is the MP version, the one i did not use, due to the impeller sitting further away from the housing.

Attached picture 20200414_090006.jpg
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:13 PM

What is initial timing and what is advance all in?
What rpm does the advance come in at?
What rpm are you cruising at?
Maybe a plug pic? after a steady cruise pull over and pull plug

Have you adjusted the idle mixture screws to make it run little rich see if that helps?
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dart451
What is initial timing and what is advance all in?
What rpm does the advance come in at?
What rpm are you cruising at?
Maybe a plug pic? after a steady cruise pull over and pull plug

Have you adjusted the idle mixture screws to make it run little rich see if that helps?


I haven't checked all in timing... I know I know.
cruising it at 2000ish. low speed, no issues there, its just off idle pop.
ill post a plug pic later today
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 06:18 PM

I tried to find a PN on the temp controller but I would have to pull it off to see it.. not gonna do that.. the
parts store should have the numbers.. try a couple parts stores to see if they have a few different ones
wave
Posted By: jb500

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 06:30 PM



"The shroud is riveted tight to the radiator. I don't think much if any air can escape it"

This may be some of your issues at speed. However, before going down that rabbit hole get it to stay at a constant temp at idle or low/slow speed driving. The electric fan on/off temp needs to be brought down and then see what happens.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 09:08 PM

You really have to know where your timing is at cruise RPM then I would try another carb if you can get your hands on one. The heat increase on cruise tells me lean condition or possible timing issues. This is assuming both radiators you tried made no difference.
Gus beer
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/18/20 10:19 PM

I have one of those type shrouds and it does effect it big time. You will need a bigger fan if you choose to keep that shroud as i posted earlier. How do I know, I fought same issue last summer and my shroud has holes it for some extra air flow. I now have fans that move much more air, if it still wont cool going down the road my mechanical fan and shroud goes back on.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 01:26 AM

700+hp B1 street motor with mechanical fan in my car for the last 15 years never gives me problem overheating. The wife's racecar/dragweek car was a pain getting hot after changing to the milodon water pump and hhr fan no more problems.

Need timing info might be some of your problem
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 04:27 AM

took my pops for a ride in his car today.... yup overheats when driving , cools when stopped. the shroud must not let enough air flow during car movement.

still backfires off idle...

here is a plug, they all look like this.

I don't have much room for a fan, id love to put in flex fan, but I just don't know if it will fit. I have 3" total from the face of my water pump to the face of the radiator. seems like a 383 in a big ol' B body would have more room?

Attached picture 20200418_090810.jpg
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 08:09 PM

idle timing set at 16*

still does pop.

I hit the gas it does nothing for 1/2 a second then goes, or it pops and backfires, and has died a few times. If this were a 2 stroke i would say LEAN! does this apply to 4 stroke as well?
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
idle timing set at 16*

still does pop.

I hit the gas it does nothing for 1/2 a second then goes, or it pops and backfires, and has died a few times. If this were a 2 stroke i would say LEAN! does this apply to 4 stroke as well?


Do you have access to another carb and can you set total timing at 34 degrees? base timing doesn't really matter with this topic you need to know where it is at 2000-2500 and the base will be whatever it is twocents
At this point in your process you have to rule out ignition or fuel ratio so you know what it isn't shruggy
Gus beer
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 08:42 PM

I haven’t followed this post all the way thru, but do you have good pump shot? I would adjust your mixture screws using a vac gauge. Adjust 1/8 turn each screw til you get max vacuum, then another 1/16 turn each screwLeave it there for now. Do this with low rpm and in drive. As long as you have ignition advance and enough fuel, there should be no hesitation or pop. If that doesn’t fix, than there’s something more serious going on with it.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by fourgearsavoy
Originally Posted by 8urvette
idle timing set at 16*

still does pop.

I hit the gas it does nothing for 1/2 a second then goes, or it pops and backfires, and has died a few times. If this were a 2 stroke i would say LEAN! does this apply to 4 stroke as well?


Do you have access to another carb and can you set total timing at 34 degrees? base timing doesn't really matter with this topic you need to know where it is at 2000-2500 and the base will be whatever it is twocents
At this point in your process you have to rule out ignition or fuel ratio so you know what it isn't shruggy
Gus beer



the only other carb i have is a 1050 dominator... that won't help.


on 2nd through i have a 650 holley on a SBC... runs great on a very mild 350
i need to get my other timing light from my parents house to set total timing, ill try to do that soon.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by mopar dave
I haven’t followed this post all the way thru, but do you have good pump shot? I would adjust your mixture screws using a vac gauge. Adjust 1/8 turn each screw til you get max vacuum, then another 1/16 turn each screwLeave it there for now. Do this with low rpm and in drive. As long as you have ignition advance and enough fuel, there should be no hesitation or pop. If that doesn’t fix, than there’s something more serious going on with it.



i did this, just not in drive. i did it in park. does that make much of a difference?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/19/20 10:14 PM

i did this, just not in drive. i did it in park. does that make much of a difference? [/quote]

Makes a big difference
wave
Posted By: jb500

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
Originally Posted by fourgearsavoy
Originally Posted by 8urvette
idle timing set at 16*

still does pop.

I hit the gas it does nothing for 1/2 a second then goes, or it pops and backfires, and has died a few times. If this were a 2 stroke i would say LEAN! does this apply to 4 stroke as well?


Do you have access to another carb and can you set total timing at 34 degrees? base timing doesn't really matter with this topic you need to know where it is at 2000-2500 and the base will be whatever it is twocents
At this point in your process you have to rule out ignition or fuel ratio so you know what it isn't shruggy
Gus beer



the only other carb i have is a 1050 dominator... that won't help.


on 2nd through i have a 650 holley on a SBC... runs great on a very mild 350
i need to get my other timing light from my parents house to set total timing, ill try to do that soon.


Is your current carb a vacuum secondary variant or a double pumper? It looks like a vac sec from your pics. Have you done any "performance mods" to your carb?
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 12:10 AM

The carb is a vac. Secondary, no mods done to it. All stock.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 01:18 AM

Ok, here’s something else to check. Pull the cover off the vac secondary spring housing and look to see it still has its check ball. Without the check ball the secondary opens a tad quicker and can cause an instant lean condition because there is no pump shot at the rear Venturi. Make sure the diaphragm is still soft and in good condition. One other thing performance wise and I know it can be combo specific, but the purple spring works good.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 02:29 AM

So i started over fresh trying to tune the idle screws on the carb.

warmed up and idling at 850 in neutral- (this is how holley says to do it)
adjusted initial timing to increase vacuum, finally get 14 in. idle screws, get me to 15" at one turn out from closed, after that i just lose vacuum. readjust idle to keep it about 850, timing set at 16*ish.

When i did these steps with the car in drive I only got it to give me 11-12".. and the idle screws really didn't change anything at any point.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 05:34 AM

Does the accelerator pump squirt as soon as the front throttle shaft moves? scope If not make sure it does, instant squirt is needed, especially off idle.
I've seen and fix a bunch of "stock' Holley carbs that didn't, they all needed the pump arm screw lengthen to preload the accelerator pump properly scope wrench
You should have between .010 and .020 additional movement at WOT on that screw, that is why it is adjustable with the spring in it scope
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 12:02 PM

well, less vacuum in drive is normal. 1-2 turns is spec, so your in spec and at one turn your idle circuit(IFR) sounds rich enough. You will loose vacuum when the screw is too far out as that's making your engine unhappy. I would still have a look at that secondary vacuum pod. One other thing to check is the secondary blade adjuster screw. It may be right out where you can see it or could be under the throttle plate. If under the throttle you will need to remove carb, flip upside down to adjust. You will have to look up spec, but you don't want those secondary blades open too far at idle.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 08:45 PM

Ok, I have a purple spring and no ball in the secondaries.

The small screw to adjust the vacuum secondaries is on the bottom, o off came the carb. The play or gap is in spec.

I adjusted all the valves, they were all a bit tight. like 1/2 turn too tight. i used comp cams suggestions, as it is a comp cam. I took the wiggle out and then did 1/2 turn. They are a bit noisier but, I gained 1" of vacuum.

Idle timing at 20* car responds well, however all in around 3k im at 50*

I found a leak in the trans, the guy who rebuilt apparently didn't tighten the front pressure port plug after testing, so it is leaking. have to wait for the exhaust to cool down before i remove, seal and reinstall.

I pulled the electric fan off, ordered a flew fan spacer, will install as soon as it arrives. luck Hope this helps cool the motor. I would think at 220* i would start to see some pinging or detonation on pump gas in a 10 to 1 motor. shruggy Maybe not?


Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/20/20 11:17 PM

I would find the correct ball bearing and put back in there. It may or may not be your issue, but you need to cover all ground to eliminate all possible problems. The too tight valves may cause a pop like that. I use the 1/3 turn after the rocker is quiet method, but 1/2 should be fine. I have even lashed hydraulic cam,s at 1/4 turn with good results on a smaller cam. 20* initial is good, but I like to see about 35* total all in by 2500-3000 with vac advance hose unhooked and plugged. 50* is fine cruising, but you might want to try driving with it unhooked just to see if it has too much timing cruising, that can cause over heating. I did that once on a 69 roadrunner with a original 383 4 speed. Too much timing over heating it and I couldn't figure out why, but was told too much timing could cause over heating. Motor blew a piston before I found that out. Sure did run good thought. I was 18 then and didn't know any better.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/21/20 12:46 AM

this distributor has no vacuum advance...

Tomorrow my flex fan adapter will arrive, and ill try that again and eliminate the electric fan all together.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/21/20 12:54 AM

Ok, no vac advance. 50* is obviously way too much. If your using a dial back timing light, I would try a non dial back light if you haven’t yet. I’m assuming your mechanical advance is working with correct springs.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/21/20 12:09 PM

The flex fan will need a shroud, but even without it should run cooler on the highway but will have problem in town,
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/22/20 08:48 PM

OMG!!! :whiney whiney whiney:

About ready to lose my s***..... AGGGHHHHH.

Flex fan in, 1/2" from radiator, high flow milodon pump, high flow water pump housing, high flow 160* thermostat.

Still runs hot!!! idle, road, highway.... sits at 210* I DO NOT YET HAVE A shroud, but id think at speed the airflow would make up for it?

WHAT THE HECK!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?

flame
Posted By: jb500

Re: new distributor - 04/22/20 09:42 PM

What has changed in your combo from this point in time??? It was exchanging heat and dropping the coolant temps.


"At idle in my carport it comes to 170* the t stat opens and it drops to 150*ish. when it warms that water up the stat opens again and hot water from the rad coms in and a few seconds later at about 210* the fan comes on and brings everything back down to 170-180* idling fan goes off and then on and so on. it works in the carport.

I took it for a test drive, it hung out around 200*-210* driving. seemed fine there, when i came to a stop it would slowly come down to 190-180* start driving again and it would go back to 200-210*. Maybe it isn't the best radiator? maybe the small ports on the housing don't flow enough water? maybe its a combination of it all."
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/22/20 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by jb500
What has changed in your combo from this point in time??? It was exchanging heat and dropping the coolant temps.


"At idle in my carport it comes to 170* the t stat opens and it drops to 150*ish. when it warms that water up the stat opens again and hot water from the rad coms in and a few seconds later at about 210* the fan comes on and brings everything back down to 170-180* idling fan goes off and then on and so on. it works in the carport.


This still happens. except now it has a mechanical fan. no electric fan, so it starts heats up, opens the t stat- comes down then slowly rises to 210ish.

Originally Posted by jb500

I took it for a test drive, it hung out around 200*-210* driving. seemed fine there, when i came to a stop it would slowly come down to 190-180* start driving again and it would go back to 200-210*. Maybe it isn't the best radiator? maybe the small ports on the housing don't flow enough water? maybe its a combination of it all."


now it heats up, and seems to stay around 210*, like its getting heat soaked. i don't know
Posted By: jb500

Re: new distributor - 04/22/20 10:23 PM

is your lower hose a non-collapsible rated type, has a support spring, or none of the above?
Posted By: rickraw

Re: new distributor - 04/22/20 10:41 PM

Had the issure yrs ago. Get a test kit to check for exhaust in cooling system. You never know.
Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 01:09 AM

It's pretty funny really. These overheating threads come up at least once a year (probably the same on other auto-related forums) and almost always follow this same course. Lots of suggestions, cooling system parts swapping, testing, all with little or no success. Sometimes people install massively overkill cooling systems and are okay afterward but how many people are out there doing just fine with the stock factory cooling system? Lots. I think the problem is that people assume the problem is the cooling system when the true culprit is elsewhere. There a LOT of lurkers watching but not participating because they've done it before, perhaps several times.
twocents



Originally Posted by 8urvette
OMG!!! :whiney whiney whiney:

About ready to lose my s***..... AGGGHHHHH.

Flex fan in, 1/2" from radiator, high flow milodon pump, high flow water pump housing, high flow 160* thermostat.

Still runs hot!!! idle, road, highway.... sits at 210* I DO NOT YET HAVE A shroud, but id think at speed the airflow would make up for it?

WHAT THE HECK!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?

flame
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by rickraw
Had the issure yrs ago. Get a test kit to check for exhaust in cooling system. You never know.


starter relay just died, have to wait till tomorrow. i will test head gaskets then.

this is just a lil' 383, what does everyone else do for cooling? what rad? what pump? what housing? what if any shroud.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 12:22 PM

You ever get the stumble out of the carb?

Maybe try locking the timing out at 36 degrees? Without a start delay will be hard to start hot but a easy test to see if anything is different.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Dart451
You ever get the stumble out of the carb?

Maybe try locking the timing out at 36 degrees? Without a start delay will be hard to start hot but a easy test to see if anything is different.


NO, I don't think it is a timing thing.

It does it under 1500 rpms. Maybe even closer to 1k. In drive if i give it any gas off idle it will pop through the carb and sometimes die.

If i barely move the throttle and get the rpms going up then it drives normal.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 03:09 PM

Its lean.. the spark is chasing the fuel.. have you done anything to the carb.. you might try
opening the mixture screws a 1/8 of a turn
wave
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 04:07 PM

sounds to be a fuel/vacuum issue. If you set the screws to max vacuum that should be enough fuel. Have you tried to turn the screws all the way in and stall the engine, both screws one at a time. That would eliminate anything plugged either side. Some of the early Holley Vacuum carbs had mix screws that metered air instead of fuel. So to make it rich the screw would have the be screwed in and screwed out for lean. The shroud I used is a Jegs brand for mopar to fit 69 B body 26" radiator. This shroud fit my 26" A body perfectly.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 04:18 PM

Work on tuning the engine, my 69 Fury 383 cooling issues disappeared once I got the timing and carb figured out.
It runs a aluminum radiator (factory one was rotted out) stock fan with stock shroud.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 04:21 PM

the Jegs shroud I used is made of black plastic and the opening is 20". Part Number: 312-P2785434. Mine looks similar to this one just to give you an idea.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 04:29 PM

Found this on Mancini site Item #: MOPP2998326 and it has a 20" opening.

Attached picture mopar-performance-fan-shroud-30.gif
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 06:14 PM

I've had motors stumble due to being to rich as well as to lean, to lean normally will pop through the carb, backfire, to rich is doggy before it cleans up and goes. scope
IHTHs thumbs
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/23/20 11:34 PM

I went to my buddys shop, he has also been giving me ideas. He lent me his blue point thermo gun.

My in car gauge says 250* , The laser dot from the gun on temp probe says 180*

I bring it back and he lends me his "expensive" thermo gun to verify. It reads within a few degrees of the blue point. I check over the whole motor, all exhaust several points on each head, the block, the oil pan the radiator etc...

This means I have had 3 bad gauges, WHO THE HELL HAS THIS KIND OF LUCK????????


Also my exhaust at idle is between 650* and 850* the outer cylinders are 650* the 4 inner ones are 850*. I hate this thing right now! flame flame flame
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/24/20 12:05 AM

The only thing I can say is when your ignition timing is too retarded you get extra heat in the headers.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/24/20 01:08 PM

Your persistence on trying to figure it out is awesome.
Hopefully this is your biggest problem in life, if so you are still winning up
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/24/20 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dart451
Your persistence on trying to figure it out is awesome.
Hopefully this is your biggest problem in life, if so you are still winning up


So far yes, I mean bothy wife and I are currently unemployed- due to shelter in place orders, and she has not received 1 friggin penny so we are living on my unemployment wages.... UGH, but at least I have something to do .

Thank you all.

Next step is to remove stubble from carb, I will pull my wideband from my race Civic (1.6 liter 453 whp, 31 PSI) and put in the coronet.

See where my AFRS are actually at.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 04/24/20 03:20 PM

That's a must have in my book for tuning carbs. Takes some guess work out of it. I have had one in my car for about 10yrs now. Great tool to have.
Posted By: moparx

Re: new distributor - 04/24/20 03:44 PM

the only thing i can add about a temperature gun versus a gauge, is a gun is measuring the surface temperature, while a gauge is measuring the actual coolant [internal] temperature.
with that said, i would expect the gun to be about 15-20 degrees [10 maybe ?] cooler than the gauge.
just my opinion. your mileage will vary.
beer
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/24/20 09:44 PM

i agree, but 50-70* difference, i don't think so!


on a different note, i am swapping out the stamped 727 deep pan for a cast version, which will hopefully stop the leak at the trans. the question is, do i need to add a deeper filter pickup? the old pan has a 1" deeper pickup in it, but the new trans cast pan is about 1" deep than that. do i need to be picking up from the bottom???
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/24/20 10:21 PM

If you dont pick up from the bottom thats just wasted fluid.. they make deep pans to help cool
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/26/20 01:29 AM

bought a cheap $20 mechanical gauge, it reads on point with the infrared gun... awesome, nothing like a chinese 20$ POS being more accurate than $100 USA made POS flame Car does not over heat, it probably never did. 3 gauges with matched sending units all busted. JUNK!

New question-

this car has a Hurst pro-matic 2 shifter, and it has melted several shifter cables, i have ran shorter longer etc... wrapped in heat shielding... but they all seem to die.
I have a Lokar shifter, but on this B body it will dang near be under the dash.

what other options are out there?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/26/20 07:08 AM

Turbo Action, Winters, Fairbanks rear exit shift cable for 727 , in my opinion the best one out there no matter the apllicattion up twocents scope
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 04/26/20 01:24 PM

I use a heavy duty cable and some heat wrap on it with careful routing.. I really try to keep it
away from heat
wave
Posted By: n20mstr

Re: new distributor - 04/26/20 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
bought a cheap $20 mechanical gauge, it reads on point with the infrared gun... awesome, nothing like a chinese 20$ POS being more accurate than $100 USA made POS flame Car does not over heat, it probably never did. 3 gauges with matched sending units all busted. JUNK!

New question-

this car has a Hurst pro-matic 2 shifter, and it has melted several shifter cables, i have ran shorter longer etc... wrapped in heat shielding... but they all seem to die.
I have a Lokar shifter, but on this B body it will dang near be under the dash.

what other options are out there?


Melting the shifter cable??? Maybe you need a ground strap from your engine to the battery? I am anal about grounds and besides every ground in my car going back to the battery, my engine, heads, and trans all have ground straps that go back to the battery .
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/26/20 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Turbo Action, Winters, Fairbanks rear exit shift cable for 727 , in my opinion the best one out there no matter the apllicattion up twocents scope

i like the look of the winters, it seems like a simple easy shift pattern as well. I think my pops would like that!
Thank you for the suggestions.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/26/20 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by MR_P_BODY
I use a heavy duty cable and some heat wrap on it with careful routing.. I really try to keep it
away from heat
wave


I had it wrapped and zip tied as far away from the hears as it could be, took a while, several starts and such before it melted, but it did.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/26/20 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by n20mstr
Originally Posted by 8urvette
bought a cheap $20 mechanical gauge, it reads on point with the infrared gun... awesome, nothing like a chinese 20$ POS being more accurate than $100 USA made POS flame Car does not over heat, it probably never did. 3 gauges with matched sending units all busted. JUNK!

New question-

this car has a Hurst pro-matic 2 shifter, and it has melted several shifter cables, i have ran shorter longer etc... wrapped in heat shielding... but they all seem to die.
I have a Lokar shifter, but on this B body it will dang near be under the dash.

what other options are out there?


Melting the shifter cable??? Maybe you need a ground strap from your engine to the battery? I am anal about grounds and besides every ground in my car going back to the battery, my engine, heads, and trans all have ground straps that go back to the battery .



I just added a new ground actually from the motor to the chassis. But it is melting due to heat. the car has the schumacher heads and there is just no room to keep the cable away from the heat. I think i may do the rear exit shifter.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/28/20 02:29 PM

thank you all for who has helped and chimed in.

Here is the car, the bumper is now back on and is satin black to match the hood.

Attached picture 20200427_165414.jpg
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/29/20 04:38 AM

Timing is at 18* and it still pops, backfires through the carb when under load at low rpm... i changed the accelerator pump cam position and it made no difference.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/29/20 07:14 AM

Try enrichening the idle mixture screws, idle air bleeds smaller, and the transition mixtures, popping is usually to lean twocents
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 04/29/20 04:45 PM

Nice looking car,

Thought you mentioned you had another carb you could try.
I would do that and see if any improvement.
Posted By: 493_DART

Re: new distributor - 04/30/20 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by MR_P_BODY
I just use a HHR(chevy) fan and shroud and dont have any problems on my SB street rod...
take your stat out and try it
wave


I have the HHR fan in my dart...it flows a ton of air and solved my heat issue !
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/30/20 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dart451
Nice looking car,

Thought you mentioned you had another carb you could try.
I would do that and see if any improvement.


I'm going to check the power valve tomorrow.
The. Try the one off my caddy .
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/30/20 04:29 PM

i pulled the carb apart, no issues with power valve or jetting. it is a holley 870 avenger. verified jetting for this carb etc..

however the power valve did have 2 gaskets on it. I pulled the PV and it had one on it and one of the metering plate. thinking it split i inspected it and compared it to the 1 replacement i had. I had 2 gaskets from the factory. I hope it is supposed to only have one. Thats how it went back.

thinking now maybe it is time for a cam swap. after talking with my friends, many of which are professional gear heads we have tried and ruled out just about everything that could cause this backfire.

The one thing left is maybe the comp cam custom grind they did for this engine is messed up??? shruggy

I also want to get a little more vacuum back into the engine so I am thinking if something sub .500 lift. mopar 484 cam?

id love to see this motor make some decent power, right now it does not. it is slow, weak and underwhelming. id think a 10 to 1 383 with stealth heads, harland sharp rockers, 1 3/4 headers, m1 intake and 870 vac carb would be snappy and fun. the car has 3.91 gears and a 26" tall rear tire.
I know 400 is very attainable from a 383 of this build- do you guys think a mopar cam is the way to go?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 04/30/20 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
.
I know 400 is very attainable from a 383 of this build- do you guys think a mopar cam is the way to go?
NOOOOO tsk
Is this cam degreed? If not do that first.
If it is degree what are the specs on the duration at .050 and LSA and intake lobe center?
I'm still thinking you have a lean pop at light part throttle application, driving twocents Or maybe a vacuum leak work
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 04/30/20 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by 8urvette
.
I know 400 is very attainable from a 383 of this build- do you guys think a mopar cam is the way to go?
NOOOOO tsk
Is this cam degreed? If not do that first.
If it is degree what are the specs on the duration at .050 and LSA and intake lobe center?
I'm still thinking you have a lean pop at light part throttle application, driving twocents Or maybe a vacuum leak work


the cam is degreed, cam card said 112 or 113. it was at 114, i tried 112 and now 108 and no change.

The carb is a 870 vacuum secondaries, i have tried 2 distributors,... checked for vacuum leaks at the carb, and intake with spray. saw no change.
adjusted valves multiple times. No change, it pops and backfires through the carb. Timing has been adjust from 5 ATDC Through- 20 BTDC


Thoughts?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 01:22 AM

I did not look back to find the cam specs but any time I hear 112,113 LSA on a N/A BB Mopar I cringe unless it is for power brakes.
All the BB I've play with N/A except one B1 bracket motor liked cams ground on 110 or narrower LSA, the B1 motor had a solid roller race cam ground from Koffels on a 111 LSA installed at 109 ATDC on the intake lobe and it made 920 HP at or around 7000 RPM with single Dominator carb on a cast single four barrel B1 intake shruggy
Have you done a compression test and or a leak down test on all 8 cylinders?
If not I would so I could be sure none of the intake valves are staying opened or bent work scope
383 motors are a short stroke motor so they don't have the torque or power that the BB do so to get them to make good power you have to revved them up (above 6000 RPM) and keep them revved up in the power band shruggy
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 03:31 AM

I pulled a 600 cfm carb off my caddy with a SBC, dropped it on and the car runs great! No backfire, no pop, great throttle response.

This is an older model with manual choke and single fuel inlet. It started right up, and idled great. revved it and no backfire, took it for a drive and it drove great.

Why does the carb I took off a Holley Avenger 870, run like poo? Power valve was fine, no vacuum leaks i could find.

I started the car on the avenger, revved it, and it backfired. Swapped the carbs started it, revved it and no back fire.

No changes, reused the carb base gasket, NO tuning changes, same timing. WHAT THE HECK!!!! THIS WAS A BRAND NEW HOLLEY!?!?!?!?!?!?
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 12:58 PM

Assuming low cost provider on parts. Check see if all air bleeds, jet passageways ect are clean.

I was thinking the carb was giving problems my friend was fighting the same issue. i took one of my old carbs over and his car ran fine.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 01:13 PM

That's just what I thought. The carb. IF not that something more serious in engine like cab said. Glad you found it. Dom@Thumper carbs finds a lot of junk in brand new holleys. The junk is left in the main well of the metering blocks.
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 07:39 PM

Rather than spend a hundred bucks on the rebuild, i went ahead and purchased the Sniper EFI.

This was the end goal, just now had a reason to pull the trigger.

The 8 3/4" rear end is a XXXX657 center chunk. it is a 3.91 Posi unit, it came from my barracuda years ago. It now whines / howls going down the road. There is also a random odd vibration the can be heard and felt, and goes away once shifted into neutral.

Thinking bearings are worn on the center chunk, and this is causing the random vibration. I also have a 742 housing, sure grip but it has 3.23 gears. Should I just swap that and not worry about the 657? With the gear vendors i would like to keep the 3.91 though.

how do I check if the gears are worn out? Do i have to pull the pig and use a dial indicator?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 07:49 PM

If you know the 742 is good.. just try swapping it
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 08:34 PM

i don't know... all it ever did in my barracuda was burn out!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: new distributor - 05/01/20 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
i don't know... all it ever did in my barracuda was burn out!


Then have some shop set it up for you
wave
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 05/02/20 02:12 AM

I would prefer to do it myself.

Took it for a test drive tonight. was running kinda weird, little stumble in first gear, not a lot of power till about 3k rpms.
Then it died on me. Just died rolling up to a stop light. Would not restart. Didn't hiccup, fart or couch. Just cranked.

I checked all the connections and fuses for the ignition. All good. I cranked it several more times over a few minutes. Nothing.
I decided it was a good time to watch good ol youtube. After a 10 minute video, i hit the key and it fired right up.

Ran better than it did earlier, no stumble, no hesitation. I just drove it home.

This happened the other night, except it just wouldn't start. I checked for spark then and had none. I messed with a connection for 12v. and then it started, i had assumed it was a bad connection, so i replaced it. I am now thinking this wasn't the issue it was purely coincidental.

It has fuel, and it has air, so it must be spark.

MSD 6AL and MSD coil. would the coil be most likely to heat up and cause an open? then cool down and work? or would the 6AL be more likely to do that?

Since i got it home everything works so i can't very well check it now. Just looking for a game plan.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 05/02/20 02:14 AM

If my memory is serving me correct the" 657" carrier was made before the 742 was, maybe prior to 1962, I have seen on here that they both use the same size pinion gear , seals and pinion bearing, I'm not sure if that is correct or not though confused
I remember seeing one in a 1957 or 1958 Plymouth Savoy flat head stick shift car that had 3.73 gears in it, I wish now that I had bagged that rascal but I didn't realcrazy
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 05/02/20 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by 8urvette
I would prefer to do it myself.

Took it for a test drive tonight. was running kinda weird, little stumble in first gear, not a lot of power till about 3k rpms.
Then it died on me. Just died rolling up to a stop light. Would not restart. Didn't hiccup, fart or couch. Just cranked.

I checked all the connections and fuses for the ignition. All good. I cranked it several more times over a few minutes. Nothing.
I decided it was a good time to watch good ol youtube. After a 10 minute video, i hit the key and it fired right up.

Ran better than it did earlier, no stumble, no hesitation. I just drove it home.

This happened the other night, except it just wouldn't start. I checked for spark then and had none. I messed with a connection for 12v. and then it started, i had assumed it was a bad connection, so i replaced it. I am now thinking this wasn't the issue it was purely coincidental.

It has fuel, and it has air, so it must be spark.

MSD 6AL and MSD coil. would the coil be most likely to heat up and cause an open? then cool down and work? or would the 6AL be more likely to do that?

Since i got it home everything works so i can't very well check it now. Just looking for a game plan.


Nobody has had an issue with their MSD cutting out while driving?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: new distributor - 05/02/20 11:56 PM

You have a bad connectio, or corrosion, in the circuit feeding 12V to the MSD box or between the box and coil or maybe the mag pickup connections scope
Something is heating up and breaking the connection stopping the power to one of those components scope
Once it cools down and shrinks back down it works correct work
How close to the ocean do you park the car or are you in the bay area where it gets really foggy ?
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 05/15/20 03:44 PM

UPDATE-
I ordered a Sniper kit, Sniper CDI, Sniper coil, and hyper spark distributor.

I cannot compliment Holley enough on how well this system installs and user friendly it is. It bolts right in, no weird modifications just plug and play. Once it was all installed I let the fuel pump prime and then cranked it. Fired right up! high idle then came down to the 900 rpm idle i set up.

I have been putting miles on the car fixing all the small issues, little electrical things and weird noises etc..

The back fire happened a few times, but watching the touchscreen it would go very lean just off idle and then pop. The system is a self learning setup so after several miles this has gone away. I also added some fuel at throttle tip in to help out.

Now with the EFI and Gear vendors this car runs great, cruises down the road like a well built car. The rear end does whine at 60MPH+ under load, so I will swap out the 657 pig with the 3.91s to the 742 I have with 3.23. Both are positive units.
Posted By: Dart451

Re: new distributor - 05/16/20 12:59 PM

Good to hear, now they need to take that junk carb they sold you back lol
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: new distributor - 05/16/20 08:51 PM

Glad to see you got the issues behind you. Happy roddin
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: new distributor - 10/20/20 02:00 AM

small update- car was strapped down on the dyno today and made a few pulls.

290 HP and 318 TQ at the wheels.

this thing likes timing. kept adding 2 degrees and it would gain power every pull... stopped at 39* just because.
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