Posted By: RustyM
Race timing - 02/10/20 12:05 AM
Msd dist/ 511/ carb - run the fast springs for timing all in early or lock out the dist. - race only car.
Thanks
Thanks
Race timing
Posted By: Torquemonster440
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 01:28 AM
Race only, I'd say lock it out and forget it. If all you're concerned with is wot, locked out seems like the ticket to me.
Posted By: madscientist
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by RustyM
Msd dist/ 511/ carb - run the fast springs for timing all in early or lock out the dist. - race only car.
Thanks
Thanks
If you lock it out and your box retards with RPM you'll be losing power from retarded timing with RPM.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 02:13 AM
I use the weakest springs and the black stop in all my motors, race or street 
Posted By: dart9ss
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 03:03 AM
msd has a kit for locking out!
Posted By: RustyM
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 04:32 PM
I've read some articles on the timing retard issues, not sure which boxes do it though- this one is a msd 6al.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 06:46 PM
If you don't have a separate starter switch to spin the motor over before turning on the ignition or a ECIU that won't allow the coil to fire until the crankshaft has spun over several times before firing the plugs good luck on getting any motor started that has a lock out distributor with more than 24 degrees total timing 
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 06:49 PM
I remember hearing that at a Mopar drag racing seminar that retarding the timing 4 degrees in high gear would help the car go faster and quicker, I've never had the parts needed to do that 
Maybe with the MSD grid I can do some testing with that to find out
Maybe with the MSD grid I can do some testing with that to find out
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 07:09 PM
Yep called slew rate and mine looses about 1 degree every 1000 rpm's towards max...........
Posted By: 4406bbl
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
I remember hearing that at a Mopar drag racing seminar that retarding the timing 4 degrees in high gear would help the car go faster and quicker, I've never had the parts needed to do that
Maybe with the MSD grid I can do some testing with that to find out
Maybe with the MSD grid I can do some testing with that to find out
I know it works with good quench and 67 heads, and even better with nitrous... Back in the no money days we would stack 2 cheater plates and pull 7 degrees out, car hauled A in high gear. Hitting the timing retard was like another bottle.
Posted By: madscientist
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Thumperdart
Yep called slew rate and mine looses about 1 degree every 1000 rpm's towards max...........
Which box are you using Dom?
Posted By: an8sec70cuda
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 07:47 PM
I have done them both ways, not much difference IMO. My cuda has it locked out w/ a crank trigger. No start retard, cranks fine at 34°. It's an 11:1 compression 575" hemi.
My road runner has the lightest springs and is set at 38°. It cranks w/ less than 38°, but as soon as it fires...it's at 38°. Ran it for years w/ a 14:1 446" wedge and locked out timing.
Never really had any starting issues, but I have big cables and high torque mini starters on both cars.
My road runner has the lightest springs and is set at 38°. It cranks w/ less than 38°, but as soon as it fires...it's at 38°. Ran it for years w/ a 14:1 446" wedge and locked out timing.
Never really had any starting issues, but I have big cables and high torque mini starters on both cars.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 07:50 PM
OLD 6200 MSD 6 series w/no chip...........
Posted By: CMcAllister
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 08:26 PM
Big cam = lock it out. Sooo much better idle quality and response. Nice clean idle in gear @ 800RPM. It's a PIA chasing the adjustments with the timing moving around when it has a 15* curve and it's all in at 1500. If it's all in at 1500, why not just lock it and have the clean idle. Any retard needed, do it electronically.
Posted By: madscientist
Re: Race timing - 02/10/20 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Thumperdart
OLD 6200 MSD 6 series w/no chip...........
Thanks for the info Dom.
Posted By: dvw
Re: Race timing - 02/11/20 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
If you don't have a separate starter switch to spin the motor over before turning on the ignition or a ECIU that won't allow the coil to fire until the crankshaft has spun over several times before firing the plugs good luck on getting any motor started that has a lock out distributor with more than 24 degrees total timing
Mine starts at 34 degrees no issue, 15-1, ignition on. Actually starts better with ignition on. 1 revolution and it's running. No crank, crank, crank.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 12:08 AM
Does your ECU allow the motor to spin over before allowing the ignition to fire the plugs?
Posted By: LAD 524
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 01:07 AM
Originally Posted by CMcAllister
Big cam = lock it out. Sooo much better idle quality and response. Nice clean idle in gear @ 800RPM. It's a PIA chasing the adjustments with the timing moving around when it has a 15* curve and it's all in at 1500. If it's all in at 1500, why not just lock it and have the clean idle. Any retard needed, do it electronically.
Interesting thread , mine is locked out as well, MSD digital 6 box has a start retard built into the box, zero issues.
Im curious, what MSD electronics would hook up to the MSD digital 6 box w/ crank trigger to enable electronic timing control from inside the car?
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 02:51 AM
This is another good reason to switch over to EFI. A Holley Sniper comes out of the box with start retard, high speed retard (or advance if you want), adjustable timing curve or locked timing, etc. Whatever you want to do with the timing curve you can. Even change timing based on air temp or engine temp. And you get built in data logging. With a MSD distributor you have to keep adding boxes or pills or modules to do everything.
Posted By: RustyM
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 03:49 AM
We are hoping to use one on an upcoming build and i'm excited about the tuning possibilities .
On these class/index cars that don't allow them,,, well, gotta do it the old fashioned way- grin.
On these class/index cars that don't allow them,,, well, gotta do it the old fashioned way- grin.
Posted By: RustyM
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 03:57 AM
So, Cm and all: If im reading correctly: Can lock it out, we do have ignition on its own switch, so thats not a problem and, locked out we will lose timing with rpm.
Anyone know at what rpm the reduction starts taking place ?
Is it actually pulling out the right amount etc?
Does it not pull out rpm if your not locked out?
If its 1 degree every thousand rpm above say 2500, that would pull us back to 30 degrees from 34 by 6500 rpm.
But if it starts pulling out at 1500, that would have us at 29 degrees at 6500.
Interesting to think on.
Anyone know at what rpm the reduction starts taking place ?
Is it actually pulling out the right amount etc?
Does it not pull out rpm if your not locked out?
If its 1 degree every thousand rpm above say 2500, that would pull us back to 30 degrees from 34 by 6500 rpm.
But if it starts pulling out at 1500, that would have us at 29 degrees at 6500.
Interesting to think on.
Posted By: madscientist
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by RustyM
So, Cm and all: If im reading correctly: Can lock it out, we do have ignition on its own switch, so thats not a problem and, locked out we will lose timing with rpm.
Anyone know at what rpm the reduction starts taking place ?
Is it actually pulling out the right amount etc?
Does it not pull out rpm if your not locked out?
If its 1 degree every thousand rpm above say 2500, that would pull us back to 30 degrees from 34 by 6500 rpm.
But if it starts pulling out at 1500, that would have us at 29 degrees at 6500.
Interesting to think on.
Anyone know at what rpm the reduction starts taking place ?
Is it actually pulling out the right amount etc?
Does it not pull out rpm if your not locked out?
If its 1 degree every thousand rpm above say 2500, that would pull us back to 30 degrees from 34 by 6500 rpm.
But if it starts pulling out at 1500, that would have us at 29 degrees at 6500.
Interesting to think on.
It depends on the box. I've got a Chrylser gold box form the early 1980's that doesn't back up until about 8000 and between 8000-12,000 it stays the same. It loses one degree at 8 k and nothing else to 12k.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 01:21 PM
I use an MSD dist. with an Ice Ignition box and coil. If I lock my timing, it will pull timing and if I remember correctly, it pulled 3* at 4000rpm. It will not pull timing with a curve in it, so I ordered some large bushings from Don@FBO and now run 30* initial and all in at 36*. I think it reaps all the rewards of being locked and without timing pull. My box has a 10* start retard.
Posted By: Tig
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by Thumperdart
Yep called slew rate and mine looses about 1 degree every 1000 rpm's towards max...........
Posted By: DrCharles
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by dvw
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
If you don't have a separate starter switch to spin the motor over before turning on the ignition or a ECIU that won't allow the coil to fire until the crankshaft has spun over several times before firing the plugs good luck on getting any motor started that has a lock out distributor with more than 24 degrees total timing
Mine starts at 34 degrees no issue, 15-1, ignition on. Actually starts better with ignition on. 1 revolution and it's running. No crank, crank, crank.
My 10.4:1 (iron head) 451 with 272@.050 begins to fight the starter at more than 24 degrees (when hot).
Since it's mostly street driven I am not sure about using the super-light springs so it's at full advance as soon as it fires. Running vac advance can instead.
Posted By: JACK1440
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 09:19 PM
I'm having a lot of issue with kick back. Dyno'd it at 34deg but, in the car hot it wants to fight us starting. I actually knocked 3 teeth off a new convertor. Currently I have it at 30 and it starts great. Dist. is locked. I'm running an old msd7C box. I have a new msd 7al with a starter saver box ready to go in. I hope this fixes my problem. 572 in 15:1
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Race timing - 02/12/20 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tig
Any one ever done back to back testing, slew v's a flat hi rpm curve? Interested to know if it works and dead easy to do with a grid.
I think Bill Baldwin who has tested it, and not accidently.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...
https:/
Bill Jones has tested the retard.
https:/
Apparently back when electronic ignitions were new to racing, some smart folks scratched their heads when the cars ran faster with dual points. Guys like Yunick and Jenkins.
Originally Posted by Tuner
The mechanical advance compensates for the retard in the electronics to provide a flat static total or continue to advance all the way through the RPM range, however the engine likes it and you set it up.
This is a technique I have used for distributor curves since the 60's, though I didn't come to understand the reasoning behind it until the early 70's when I replaced a points ignition that did not retard as RPM climbed with an electronic ignition that, like all electronic ignitions, has slew-rate retard, and the car slowed down.
A-B-A-B it was faster with the GM dual-points distributor, even though the spark energy was higher with the electronic, a GM Magna-Pulse, and the electronic had the same “curve” except for the retard after the “total” was reached at 2500. Jenkins book “The Small Block Chevrolet Racing Engine” details the high-RPM curve and explains his reasoning..
This is a technique I have used for distributor curves since the 60's, though I didn't come to understand the reasoning behind it until the early 70's when I replaced a points ignition that did not retard as RPM climbed with an electronic ignition that, like all electronic ignitions, has slew-rate retard, and the car slowed down.
A-B-A-B it was faster with the GM dual-points distributor, even though the spark energy was higher with the electronic, a GM Magna-Pulse, and the electronic had the same “curve” except for the retard after the “total” was reached at 2500. Jenkins book “The Small Block Chevrolet Racing Engine” details the high-RPM curve and explains his reasoning..
Posted By: Dartsport540
Re: Race timing - 02/13/20 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by JACK1440
I'm having a lot of issue with kick back. Dyno'd it at 34deg but, in the car hot it wants to fight us starting. I actually knocked 3 teeth off a new convertor. Currently I have it at 30 and it starts great. Dist. is locked. I'm running an old msd7C box. I have a new msd 7al with a starter saver box ready to go in. I hope this fixes my problem. 572 in 15:1
Hello, my name is Paul, from Ringtown , Pa.
I have a 540 cu.in. in my car. A little over 14.6 to 1 compression. MSD distributor, with MSD 7AL2 ignition, NO crank trigger. Last spring, I locked out my distributor. Then sometimes it would kick back . I broke 1 flex plate, and 3 starters. 2 starters had a billet front piece. I tried everything. MSD Starter Saver didn't help. Ended up being Rotor Phasing. MSD makes a phase able or adjustable rotor. Rotor tip was out 16*.. Spark would sometimes jump to next terminal on distributor cap, causing motor to kick back.
I sent you a PM. It is easier to talk to you than typing it out..
Thanks, Paul
Posted By: dvw
Re: Race timing - 02/13/20 10:23 AM
If the rotor is correct they start fine. Mine is crank trigger. The rotor is phased. I never start it by cranking and then hitting the ignition. Same starter (stock) 7 years . Never hurt a converter tooth. 630 passes and counting.
Doug
Doug
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: Race timing - 02/13/20 01:10 PM
Thanks for posting those lincs mattax. Great read.
Posted By: RustyM
Re: Race timing - 02/13/20 08:28 PM
Ditto- thanks !
Posted By: fbs63
Re: Race timing - 02/14/20 11:51 AM
Here is what I do with race motor MSD distributors. Use 1 light spring and both weights. 1 weight will need an e-clip or wire on the stud to retain it. Select the bushing with the max mechanical advance you want. That way the engine cranks with reasonable advance but as soon as it starts it's at full advance.
Posted By: mopar dave
Re: Race timing - 02/14/20 03:56 PM
Just to add something here, I once had this timing issue on my small block as well with the MSD dist locked. I installed a crank trigger and timing would only loose about 1/2* as I rev'ed the engine. So, if the engine is speeding up in the same amount of time as described and the electronics can't keep up, then why doesn't the same amount of retard take place with the crank trigger? Not to answer my own question, but it must have something to do with the elimination of the electronics in the dist itself i'm guessing? Its the only thing being eliminated from the system. If so, than the dist is at most fault for the severe retard with rpm, not so much the box when its locked out.
Posted By: 383man
Re: Race timing - 02/20/20 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
I remember hearing that at a Mopar drag racing seminar that retarding the timing 4 degrees in high gear would help the car go faster and quicker, I've never had the parts needed to do that
Maybe with the MSD grid I can do some testing with that to find out
Maybe with the MSD grid I can do some testing with that to find out
There was an article by Bill Jenkins on that in a Car Craft mag back around 1971. It actually told how he uses a dual point dist to bring in the second set of points in high gear to retard the timing in high gear for more power. Ron
Posted By: Border-shadow
Re: Race timing - 02/20/20 03:22 PM
msd has a kit for locking out!
Posted By: JAKE68
Re: Race timing - 02/20/20 04:36 PM
I had a odd problem one time. I tried to lock dist on my hemi car and it was hard to start. kept kicking back. So I put the curve back in it. Latter I put a crank trigger in it and same total timing as before when locked out and no more kicking back. Since then all the motors I have done with crank trigger never kick back. Jake
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Race timing - 02/20/20 05:55 PM
If you’re worried about the electronics retarding the timing at high rpm...... just check the timing at high rpm and see if it’s happening or not.
A lot of times it ends up being the cam walking, which changes the timing.
That’s a good reason to run a crank trigger.
A lot of times it ends up being the cam walking, which changes the timing.
That’s a good reason to run a crank trigger.
Posted By: hemi-itis
Re: Race timing - 02/22/20 04:51 PM
I have tried to discuss this in the past. I have the 6al programmable that allows me to put the timing anywhere I want like every 500 RPM.Starts at 24* and is up to 30* by 800 RPM for idle. Depending on the boost level I am running I start taking timing out at 2500 RPM. I could also use the boost retard to take timing out and leave the timing curve at 30* for street driving.
So I ask the guys in the know,,,when should I start pulling timing,,,,and how much total.I can take it gradual as it is totally programmable with a laptop,
So I ask the guys in the know,,,when should I start pulling timing,,,,and how much total.I can take it gradual as it is totally programmable with a laptop,
Posted By: Belvedere1
Re: Race timing - 02/22/20 05:25 PM
What spring would a guy use in a Firecore distributor to have a similar set up where you can have it crank with no potential for started kickback yet have full advance on start up. There are only 3 different springs in the Firecore set.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Race timing - 02/22/20 06:22 PM
It sounds like your going to have to find out on yours
Please let us know what you find out
I would put the thinnest one in first and see what you get 
I've never seen one of those distributors, can you limit the mechanical advance also?
If so I would shoot for 15 to 18 crankshaft degrees max advance in the distributor and then set the initial timing around 14 to 18 BTDC and make sure to not exceed 34 to 36 degree max advance when revved up
Please let us know what you find out
I would put the thinnest one in first and see what you get
I've never seen one of those distributors, can you limit the mechanical advance also?
If so I would shoot for 15 to 18 crankshaft degrees max advance in the distributor and then set the initial timing around 14 to 18 BTDC and make sure to not exceed 34 to 36 degree max advance when revved up
Posted By: DrCharles
Re: Race timing - 02/22/20 06:25 PM
If it helps, I just set up my 451's distributor for a lot of advance on startup (but not quite full), then advancing gradually to max.
One superlight (Mr. Gasket 925B) spring for the low-rpm advance, then an OEM spring with a loop.
The loop engages at the idle rpm and its spring dominates thereafter.
So there's about 14 at crank (no kickback), 27 idling, 35 at 4000 and max of 38 less box retard at the high end
The trick is in finding the right loop length. I got lucky.
One superlight (Mr. Gasket 925B) spring for the low-rpm advance, then an OEM spring with a loop.
The loop engages at the idle rpm and its spring dominates thereafter.
So there's about 14 at crank (no kickback), 27 idling, 35 at 4000 and max of 38 less box retard at the high end
The trick is in finding the right loop length. I got lucky.
Posted By: Belvedere1
Re: Race timing - 02/23/20 01:20 AM
They are totally adjustable and a really nice unit. I have it set up now for 20 initial and 16 in the dist. The cam is a 254/.520 and it just seems the idle has always "wondered". I have the option with that unit to lock it out but just thinking if there is a light spring that works that someone has already experimented with I would ask the question. My next move is to try locking it out and work back form there.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Race timing - 02/23/20 01:58 AM
I use the Mr. Gasket 925B distributor springs in a lot of different brand distributors, maybe they will work for you also
They have work good in all the after market replacement Mopar distributors I've use them in
They have work good in all the after market replacement Mopar distributors I've use them in