A body front steer rack

I am putting a dry sump r5p7 engine in my 69 dart. I want to make the car a front steer rack. I do not want a aftermarket k frame right now also want to keep the tortion bars. I know that switching the ball joints left to right will mess up the steering ackerman. I was wondering if anyone has any pictures of a corrected steering set up or a source for something that would work.

We're working on mine right now. We've made some changes and it seems like we have really helped Ackermann and bump steer. Mine has home made steering arms and a Pinto rack mounted inside the K frame.

I did a full conversion on a 65 Dart. Two, actually. You need a narrowed (-5 inch) rack from RJ race cars. About 225. Go to ForABodys only in the early a section and search for gregsdart posts. The narrowed rack will allow the use of stock lower and upper control arms. If you go Pinto , then stock length works. Pic of partially done unit. Ackerman correct, max bump steer 1/8 inch.Took a LONG time to get it right!

I plan on doing my 64 Coronet similar to yours, except I flipped steering arms side to side and then used original tie rod holes as an added bolt on for the extended arm that will be longer and closer to the tire. Saw the set up on a buddy’s car. Can’t remember who made his tho. What thickness of steel is that? Did you have to change upper control arms to get camber back? I’ll see if I can find the pictures I took of his. Jim.

hows these

Hello,
if you make the tie rod and lower control am pivot points the same length it will eliminate bump steer

I could be wrong but i believe the tie rods should be mounted further out. For the tires not to scrub when turning the line from ball joint center to tie rod center should be running in towards the center of the rear. So for the new location it would be where the red dot is on the picture.

I found this pic of the stuff bobs pro fab used to sell

Did one on a 68 dart back in late 70s. Later spool type K-frame, sway bar thru type. Pinto rack, reversed lca. Bolted inside the k and links almost straight out. Turning no problem, no shimmy backing, straight as a string at 131 mph. Secret is keeping the rack and links straight to the lca. The trouble starts when you angle the links back (tie rods). Perfect if the swivel on rack is in line with the torsion bar, it follows the same arc. I duplicated how it was on the Pinto, Ford already spent the millions getting it right. My buddy still has the car, might get him to take some pics.

Subscribing as I need to switch to a rack on my 68 Dart.

Any more pics and info would be great!

The position of the outer tie rod looks way better than just swapping arms side to side. Notice how it is more of a straight shot from rack to arm. I tried just swapping arms once, after car launched and wheels came down, bump steer took over and ended up in other lane. OP’s original pic isn’t too bad for location of tie rod pickup point, but I Would NOT ever do the stock A arm swap again. Jim.

Meeee 3.

Yes, ideally you want the rack back far enough the tie rods are straight as possible. On mine we are pretty much stuck since I am not going to change the K frame. Mine will be a ton better than it was.

Not sure I'm following this well. I think it said to swap the LCA left to right? Would this not put the brake strut rod in the wrong angles.
What spindles are you guys using for this mod for front steer?

No, you swap steering arms, not LCA's.

Makes more sense.

I'll read thru both posts again.

The bump steer would be horrendous, as has already been mentioned, the steering arms should be slightly past the ball joint centerline.

Anybody that wants to attempt this needs to be fluent in bump steer and Ackerman. Swapping the factory ball joints side to side will toe the wheel inward during a turn, not good. Make sure that Caster is set in the build 1st. Caster affects bump steer as well. Rack width depends on outer tie rod location. Proper outer tie rod location for optimized Ackerman needs to be established after establishing built in caster. But before rack width selection. In the end the steering arm outer tie rod location will be set with Ackerman and caster correct. Then the inner tie rod (socket joint) can be located in a parallelogram looking from the front using the outer tie rod, lower ball joint, inner control arm pivot, inner tie rod.
Doug

Tire turning more in didn’t happen on the dart. That happens if the rack is to far forward so the tie bars angle back. Then the tie rod tubes go over center, then the tire has to be pulled back. Happens backing up with wheels turned. But I agree 99% should not attempt this but if you do just look at the factory setup on the car you’re getting the rack from then duplicate as close as you can.

Yes you are right,to get Akerman the tie-rods ball joints and basically the differential yoke forms a triangle.

So the tie rod needs to be out pretty far,I had to use a different offset wheel on my 68`
Lower ball joints are swapped on bothe cars.
Cuda is drag only so could care less about Akerman drives superb at 137,hard on the brakes ,bouncing from a wheelstand.
68` is streetcar. drives really well,no complaints or unusual problems.

The basic challenges are ::::::: Rack wants/needs to be where the engine is
Tie-rod needs to be where the tire/wheel is.
Caster is an issue too........ to get all 3 at once.
On the Cuda the engine is back 9" so it allowed perfect bump-steer ZERO....
68` EVERYTHING is in the way, has some bump-steer but you don`t feel it. Been over 130 mph on the 2-lane many times. Drives just fine.

Doesn't this induce a bunch of positive camber when you do that? I was looking at trying that one time and I remember the ball joint was angled and offset so I automatically ruled that possibility out.

Didn`t effect the camber. That I could see.
Did`nt have any issues getting everything to line up.
The 68` needs more caster,has power rack and ratio is too quick/light. However it is a lot of work to add caster or remove it. Tie-rod length and height would need to be changed also.......too lazy to do all that again.


At ride height the rack and tie-rods need to be somewhat level.
Beyond that you will get severe toe-in at max travel up or down---toe-out in the middle or a combination of both.,which is why a common band-aid is restrict front end travel. On a fast drag car you don`t need much travel which makes it a lot simpler. Street cars or roundy stuff is much much harder to retro-fit. Main reason I made my own K frame.

The key is a combination of rack length that fita the length of the lower control arms for zero bumpsteer and also places the tie rod end correctly for ackerman for a street car. For a race car(mine) zero ackerman saved my keester three times and allowed me to correct quickly when i blew an oil system gasket at 150 mph , got sideways at 125 mph on a slick track, and again at 135 mph when i hit a dip in the track with the brakes on hard.. I don't recall seeing many successfully recovering from being out of shape as bad as i was. Credit the fact that the front wheels stayed dead parallel at all steering angles so the front end didn't push me into a spinout.

Well I talked myself out of building one. To many other projects going on. This should be done in a few months.

That looks nice..

Is that a few months wait time for him to build you the suspension? And what does a setup like that cost?

I am probably going to go that route too so I can keep the factory spindles and brakes but I need to be going back together pretty quick for the start of the season.

That is a nice looking set up. Does it use your stock spindle then? Jim

Yes it uses stock spindles. It is alot better of price then most. I like that it is all moly tube. Says will save 65 pounds over stock set up.

What brand is it and can you provide us contact info please
Are you going to way it and all your old parts also?
The reason I'm asking is I had a early A body tube K frame, it weighed 2 lbs. less than the stock K frame did before cleaning the stock one
21 lbs. for the tube one and 23 lbs. for the stock K member on a 1000 lb. certified warehouse scale
I have several 1967 and later stock A and B body K members so it will be interesting to hear on your weight differences on the B body K members only.
I've ben using elephant ears and front motor plates for years on my hot street and strip cars and I know all the engine mount parts add up on weight, my last BB Duster had right at 49.7 % weight on the rear tires, 50.3 % on the front tires That baby would hook up in a mud puddle in the middle of a rain storm
AKA, aside it flat worked well
I did move the rear axle forward one inch ( I had to stretch the rear wheel wells five inches, three inches on the front side and two inches on the rear side ) and I moved the 400 block back as far back as I could and still get the valve covers off with the heater installed

Even adding a lot of gussits to my son's 68 Dart front X member and I added a lot, it was still about 28 pounds on my bathroom scale....

Now total weight, what is taken off and added back on?
The manual box VS Mustang II rack?
Stock slot motormounts VS motor plates with Elephant ears?

I can't see the items weighting much different.

I have this set up on my car as well. Been thru dragweek and won my class. With the cost of this set up don’t know why you would do it yourself. For what you see in pictures it is $1550. Tory Shellehamer makes them and you can find him on Facebook .

I have weight the parts multiple times and posted them here and Facebook, it’s 65lbs difference.

With that much weight on rear tires were you trying for a wheel stander? 😎

The big weight loss are the torsion bars, steering box, and linkage. Everything else can get real close with stock stuff. The stock control arms and modified K frame aren't enough different in weight to matter much.
Doug

I am changing all kinds of stuff on my car this winter. I do in joy problem solving and making my own stuff . For the amount of time i will spend planing and building it my self i cant justify building it. Ive seen this set up in action and it seems to work great. Tory also makes motor plates and header flanges. Chances are ill be hitting him up for some p7 ones.

Really like the design of the lower control arm connections (triangle), rack is way to far forward but it can be moved. There’s a lot of spindles out there designed with the tie rod in front, just use the the proper ball joints. You don’t have to stay with the Chrysler type either. Speedway makes one for circle track. Just my 2 Cents

Rack is just in front of balancer. Where are you going to move it? Can’t go back farther the engine is there. I guess your gonna mount it under the engine and jack up ride height? Don’t see how your idea is possible.

Shot him a PM on Facebook. Thanks!

If so I would not have it, I want the rack swivel centerline on the inner pivot of the lca and the tie rod tube parallel to the lca because as we know the upper and lower control arms pivot on a different arc. The higher the outside tie rod is the more it will toe outl on a wheely. This puts the rack below the balanced. I’ll add..IMO

Looks like a great swap from the stock setup.
other than tubular uppers and strut bars to carry the weight of the coil holding the front up, what shock is needed? obviously a coil over type and I guess you can use your own length too
65lbs sounds great too !

I run a Afco da shock with 5 in stroke. I run one designed to fit a factory mopar in stock location. I believe my shock is part number 3850m but can’t remember for sure. If you are really serious I can go n my garage and get it for you.

THANKS, im pretty sure I have those AFCOS, ( I had them on my car for a while) they are threaded also to take a coil over spring and I still have the hardware they came with to put a coil spring....HOWEVER I replaced them with SANTUFFS that so far are working really good for me. When I make this swap im going to have to buy new shocks that's all. This will work great for me as losing 65 lbs will really help a lot to get under the min for Ultra Street. FInally I would be able to move weight around in the car

That is what I have on my car and I talked to Tory last night and he said they will work. His setup moves the shock mount on the LCA closer to the ball joint than the factory location. I am verifying a few things on my car today as far as ride height and setting the engine back and if everything checks out I am going give him the green light tonight to make me one.