Hughes engines camshafts

Anyone one here know what each of these series cams are, HER HEH HTL HE HEV?

From their 2003 catalog
HEH = hydraulic flat tappet
HER = Hydraulic roller LA and Magnum engines
HTL = Max Vel Solid flat tappet

I'm running one of their HEV series, which was replaced by the HTL series

Hope this helps

Thanks for that. Do you like that cam and what do you think about there cams overall?

I've been running mine 19 years and no issues to date. HEV5663
The cam I have was ground by Engle for Hughes, I believe Howards makes the cams for Hughes now
My current build will use a Howards that's the same specs as the Hughes STL6064

Glad to here those are holding up well. I may be doing a cam change sometime in the future and haven't fully bit the roller bug with the cam selection. I ran a 700 lift in a small block with street miles and had lifters rebuild every 5 yrs. Don't really want to get back into that maintenance gig again with all the expense along with it. I may change my mind on this when the time comes, but right now i'm happy with SFT cams.

I ran an HEV in a small block years ago.

1st cam wiped out in 200 miles. Although I insisted we used the correct pressure springs, they told me the reason it wiped a lobe was because I hadn't purchased the springs from them.

After I dug all of the metal out of the pistons, I built another motor and had a 2nd cam wipe out in about 1500 miles. Although I had used their cam, lifter, and spring combo... they told me my block had poor lifter bore geometry, and would not cover any costs of the repair.

Then I bought new pistons, new bearings, rings, etc...bored the motor .010" over, BUSHED the lifter bores as instructed, and broke the motor in on the dyno with the outer springs only as instructed. It wiped out ANOTHER cam of the same HEV profile.

I'll let you decide if you want to buy or use anything from them...but I put a roller in it, and never looked back.

You don't need a killer attack roller lifter profile. Every production car on the planet has a roller cam in it...so the durability is fine if you use the right parts.

Just to be curious how much spring pressure did they recommend? I lost one of their camshafts several years ago, using their lifters and springs. When I saw the specs, I called and told them there is no way this cam will live at those pressures. They talked me into it, and to make a long story short it did not live, I sent them cam and lifters back for inspection, and they said that my break-in pattern looked fine on the lobes that did not go flat. basically shrugged their shoulders and said Oh well. Did not even offer to replace the camshaft. I went with a roller and never looked back. I personally never use a flat tappet cam that calls for more than 130 lbs on the seat, I have pushed that with EDM lifters, but if it's over 130 lbs on the seat, and much over .650 lift, I just buy a roller.

Fear of spring loads?

Go back and read through the whole camshaft/valvetrain sections of the MP engine books.
Read what is said about the spring loads....... then look at the recommended spring part numbers...... and the specs for those springs.
Especially the springs for the bigger flat tappet cams.

Then consider how everyone talks about how old school they are, and that newer, faster rate cams would make more power.

Well, generally........ the faster rate profiles need more load to maintain control of the valvetrain.

Look again at the recommended springs and loads for those old school lobes...... and let it sink in that the newer designs should use more load than that to achieve similar RPM’s before the onset of instability or float.

It doesn’t point towards loads in the 130/330 range being able to get it done.

My buddy tried one of their HTL series cams along with there lifters and springs in his big block a few years back. Cam died shortly after break-in. I checked the spring pressures after, Was way higher then necessary. There cams are probably Ok, But I would watch their recommended spring pressures.

Looks like a few failures. I had a friend with a small block lost one of there cams as well. I think they sent him a new cam, but I know Hughes can be full of excuses when their parts fail. I think OEM's only use hydraulic roller lifers, no solids I know of, so you would still be into pulling lifters every 5 yrs or so.

back when engle was grinding their cams I asked engle about hughs spring loads. the guy I talked to wasn't on board with hughs spring loading. I run an engle and use engles spring specs and have no issues. I do believe the howards profiles are more aggressive off the seat than the engles and this is were the rub comes in. the more aggressive the lobe the more spring is needed to control the valve train. if having a fast lobe is necessary then buy cam/tappets set up for wheels.; that is if you don't want to take the chance of grinding up the cam/tappets. I don't do the roller thing because I don't need one, and to be honest I don't like the lobes out there and don't trust bronze gears for long term reliability. no free lunches.

Call Dave and talk to him. After he explains to you how stupid you are you will probably never buy anything from him. Big hint:. Don't mention Moparts to him unless you really want the conversation to go off the rails.

If you decide that you just have to have one of his cams, bypass him and get it from the source.

I understand too well. I have often wondered if the Dave was related to Russ over at Indy. Nearly the same attitude. If your spending money, then they are tolerable, but ask questions and I feel sorry for you. Here's one of the HEV6876BS cams. 302/309-270/276 108 Intake events 30/60 Exhaust 69/27. Here's mine Dwayne spec'd, it's a comp. 302/308-270/276 110 Intake events 29/61 Exhaust 72/24. Hughes cams are said to have aggressive lobes causing lobe failures. Mine almost the same aggressiveness and i'm under the understanding my cam is neither aggressive nor tame. Mines still going strong after a couple seasons under what I thought was high pressure for a flat tappet. I'll have to look up the pressures.

135-137@1.900 and 430@1.250 are the pressures.

I ran two of Daves cams in small blocks, a hydraulic and a flat solid, both made good power. Both engines were ran five years, when the engines were tore down both cams were worn on the nose of the lobe and had porosity on several lobes. I used good oil with eos added, and Hughes recommended springs. For what it's worth Ryan Johnson told me later that he didn't like their springs, said they didn't hold up well. I now run a solid roller.

I recall him posting a little diatribe against Moparts years ago when some of the members built an engine for some contest. Calling them amateurs and looking down his nose.

Decided right then and there he was a vendor I chose not to support.

I wasn't going to bring it up- It was in the early 2000's and it was for Engine Masters. His response to an innocent group of guys running down the checklist of "what could have caused this" was way over the top. It is easily in the top three Moparts meltdown threads of all time (along with the 70 purple Daytona and anything posted by Eddie/Elvis with the Duster). His response convinced me to never use their products, and I am typically not like that. They have some of the highest rates of lift for duration out there in the flat tappet world but by the time you can control the valvetrain, you are on the absolute ragged edge of what can be accomplished with a flat tappet cam. If anything is off, even by a hair, you are in trouble. I just went to Engle who ground for them at the time and got something with slightly slower ramps.

Hats off to fast68plymouth for being so professional in his response. He knows the deal- you sir, are a gentleman.

For those that never saw it and those that may have forgotten:


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7156/1.html

the engles don't have as much nose radius as something like comp cams. I think the "peakier" noses aren't as comfortable with big pressures and can be more susceptible to wear. I've used several engles without any issue but don't use big springs. the engles aren't as fast off the seat as something like a comp extreme which I think helps with break in. I've got about 20,000 miles on a engle solid. may go away tomorrow; may be good for a few more years but I sure got my moneys worth out of it. in fact I had an extra one made for a spare because I like the one I have.

FWIW, I've run a couple Engle FT cams, and my engine-builder/crew-chief/guru has used them a lot. We've had excellent results, easy, reasonable, & quick guys to deal with.
I did get a Hughes cam once, and rather than supplying the one I wanted, the dude said they were out of stock on that one and insisted a wilder one was the better choice for street/strip use.
It did make power, but wasn't very streetable. And yes, I'd described the car & combo in detail.

I about fell off my chair when I read this.

The guy completely insulted my intelligence. Took my heads elsewhere and got the performance bump that I wanted for less money, and what Dave told me was impossible. This was 25 years ago. So happy that I've never spent $1 with him. I've probably directed away from him $50,000 of business buy simply sharing my personal experience.

That said, cannot really speak to the quality of his stuff. Some people seem to like it.

How much expense was getting lifters rebuilt every 5 years?
Thats peanuts in the whole scheme of things
I had my crane ultra pro’s checked after 5 years and they were fine. Best machine looked at them
700 lift roller 273@50
Bet i had WAY more 1/4 mile hits and as much street driving as you did.
Go roller and don't look back

I have come to really like Howards cams stuff

I used the STL6468BS cam back i. The early 2000's , made good power. My problem was Hughes springs. They were crap. Didn't last 150 runs. Don't know if it was the ramps of the camp or spring material.

The expense I had in mind was not rebuilding roller lifters, but the expense in the flat tappet to roller gig. I used to send mine to PBM for rebuilding. I think it was $180 back then. Not sure what the cost to switch today would be, but I would guess $ 1600-$1700. I used the moral lifter back then, I think I paid $250 for a set thru PMB. I real bargain for roller lifters.

My son bought Hughes SER1620 grind. It has a nice mild sound in a 383 and very good power in a D200 pickup. Used Edelbrock springs in his Edelbrock aluminum heads.
But before he installed it I was looking at the cam and the fuel pump push rod lobe was rough cast and looked like it had not been ground, looked like no eccentric to it.

He called their shop and their answer was "Just install it and it will wear into each other." HUH, WTH??? NEVER!!!

He took it over to Delta Cams in Tacoma, 15 miles away and they checked the cam and said that it was as cast from core and had never been ground. So for $35 he chucked it in his grinder and made it right.

I will not buy one from them.

Its sure looking like Hughes should be the last place to buy a flat tappet cam, but what about their roller cams? I haven't heard of anyone using one yet. I have bought a bunch of items from them over the years and never had a problem with any of it as far as quality is concerned, but never a flat tappet cam. They are ok to deal with as long as your spending money and don't ask for a refund by the sounds of it. Oh, and don't ask questions or your in real trouble.

Ok. Now y’all have me worried 😱. I just bought and installed one of their hyd roller cam and expensive rockers setups but haven’t started it yet. I hope all goes well. I have another customer that I’m building a 440-6 motor that wants me to use a cam from them. He wants a hyd roller but he heard of their “ Mopar Profile” cam and is asking me about those as well. Looks like I need to give Dwane a call instead.

Call Jim at Racer Brown and save a headache.

I've had cams go flat. From a variety of sources. The biggest cause is operator error. For a time, it was junk lifters. I still inspect every single lifter, every time. If it doesn't have enough radius, it gets replaced. I also mic the OD. I've found some small lifters.

The other issue is worn lifter bores.

I've never, ever pulled the springs apart, never used a low ratio rocker.

Hughes doesn't grind his cams. Howard's does. And from a limited phone conversation, I wouldn't buy anything from Howard's. They don't agree with Hughes and his lobes, so they let [censored] slide. I've seen that with my own eyes. Hughes doesn't inspect every cam that goes out the door. He doesn't look at any of them. That's on Howard's. And if Howard's isn't into the deal, or can't stand Dave, then rather than send junk out, they should stop grinding his cams.

And don't think I'm defending Dave. He and I have had some epic phone battles. In person, we'd have probably thrown down. But it is what it is, and if he has something I need or want, I use it.

If anyone has ANY, ANY doubt about using an agressive lobe SFT cam, like the Comp MM series or some of the stuff Dave has, then don't use it. The margin of error with those lobes is almost zero, meaning if you don't do everything correct, you'll kill a lobe. If you aren't using a known ignition, a known carb, if you ain't 100% sure when you hit the button it will roll over and light, step down to a less agressive lobe.

I haven't had the chance to really study it out, but I know that some of the spring life issue come from flexing pushrods. As the lobe gets more agressive, you MUST get the pushrods stiffer. My next SFT deal will get 5/16-3/8 single taper pushrods at the minimum. I may go double taper. If I can fit them, I may go 3/8-7/16. I see way too much stuff with pushrods that are too flimsy for a decent 1980's lobe.

20 posts of people with bad experiences...and with all that said you want to ask if you should buy something from them?

I dont get the guy.... lol
Gets more advice than probably anybody in the history of Moparts

Agreed, the frequent stretched out inquisitive posts must be a hobby

When I’m curious about something or just plain don’t know, I ask the question. Don’t see the harm. Should I just stop posting after the first reply? I don’t get you. The minute someone doesn’t understand my comments or are rubbed the wrong way by them for whatever reason you always jump right in like a shark in a feeding frenzy.

I ran a big Hughes SFT cam in my 340 for over twenty years and in two different blocks. I broke it in originally with just the outer springs from Hughes. Put the inners in but they weren't enough pressure. Engine would float the valves at 7500. I don't remember exactly what I put in for a valve spring but IIRC they were about 220 on the seat and a little over 440 over the nose. Never had a problem with that cam running it to 8000. Sounded like a roller at idle too. So there is that. I still have that cam somewhere and wouldn't be afraid to run it again.

The bulk of the info is about Hughes flat tappet cams going flat, not roller cams going flat. Just thought I would ask about their roller cams as I will still purchase from Hughes, just not the flat tappet cams. I have no issues with their other products I have bought over the last 20 years or so.

I was gonna call them last summer and couldn’t find anything on them. Thought they were out of business. Good to hear their still grinding cams.

I got 4 engines with Hughes Flat tappet cams....one hydraulic flat tappet in a street car....couple more in spare short blocks...

Have broken them in with the dual springs......

never had any flat lobes.....

I just read through this thread
Would only buy from Hughes or Indy unless they were the sole source
HAve used lots of Engle with no more than the normal problems- mostly when pushing the envelope
As far as Howards and that kind of lobe I'd run dual springs set up light and break in on the outer
also I grind flats on the sides of hyd lifters similar to the ones sold by Rhodes (howards has them for some lifters) and this kind of flat was stock on 229 chevy v6 and some buicks
have not tried edm for hyd but would try
The .904 designed lobes will out performance the universal grinds
AS for the "Mopar grind" for HR no such think afik
First all HR retrofit kits are made by the same vendor AFIK let me know if any others
All have the small chevy size roller
A mopar HR could have the same base circle as a BBC but I do not know of any that do
In fact it's worse- many use masters that would work on Buick base circle or one that would work in a stroker chevy
We just do not have the numbers for customized grind lists- but that could change\- see below
Mopars also benefit from a larger lifter wheel .810-.815 no reason to use the smaller chevy sized wheel
the small wheel increases side loading...so at least get mopar sized rollers
Mke Jones inverse flank masters demonstraably outperform flat flank profiles solid or HR

One way to dial in your cam is to use a program like Controlled Induction software and generate your custom lift curve then take it to a grinder with CNC grinder and get your optimized cam solid, hyd, roller, hyd roller
you could also get away from the "most lift" dick comparison and roll the nose over so not pointy and limit the spring needed- and ensure the valve close is non bounce

happy new years

Great info. This is the type of info I look for when I start a post. I like to learn. Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

I have commented like i did above 2 or maybe 3 times ever on your threads. Thats over like 20 years. And its been when poster after poster( like in this thread) tell you the same thing over and over again.
At some point you probably should take consensus advice for what it is. Consensus advice.

i've ran Hughes solid cams for years. first one was in 2008. HTL5660AS SB stroker 410'', still going strong in 2020. last year i put in a HTL6468AS in my 360''. i have zero complaints with there cams.

The last small block chrysler roller cam I ordered from Comp I ordered BBC base circle size. I am not sure that it matters with a roller. I think the wheel diameter is the pertinent dimension. Comp has different prefixes that you add to the lobe number for different roller diameters. I am talking about custom, I am not sure about shelf grinds.

I have purchased a lot of parts from Hughes. I did have some bad parts from time to time. They always took care of the issues. Sometimes going above and beyond. Like sending premium gaskets to make repairs, overnight shipping ect.

Then I called one day to inquire about a cam. That's when things went south. I had Dave on the phone and we were discussing my camshaft needs when I asked him why they don't list advertised duration numbers. He said "nothing matters that happens below .050" lift." I said I disagree. He said "your wrong, all that matters is the @.050 number."

I said "Dave, the engine can't build compression until the valve is seated, not to mention the importance of overlap. By your logic I could crank my adjusters down to hang the valve open .030-.040" and it wouldn't matter, right? We both know it wouldn't start, much less run"
He hung up on me. I haven't ordered from them since.

IMHO, you need both Advertised and @ 0.050". You can not easily at a glance tell ramp speed without both.

I've got their HE3844AL hydraulic flat tappet in my 360 motor right now. It's an older build, very much a weekend toy, granted nowhere near as many miles as regularly used cars would have had by now. Over about 8 yrs now I have logged a tad over 5k miles of summer only driving. The cam was installed with outer springs only, I then installed the inners after the break-in. Using their #1111 springs since I had originally intended to move up to the 1.6 ratio rocker arms.

From a "satisfaction factor" perspective, great cam. This is in my 3600 lbs coupe, 4k converter, 4.10 gear, which makes my brick [censored]-house like ride move fast enough. If anything my only complaint is that for a street car I have a rather low vacum signal (7-8") at idle (108LSA), still that works OK as I run dual-chamber power brake booster.

My current W2 stroker build will use a Comp Cams hydraulic roller cam. I looked at Hughes' roller cams initially, none of their profiles seemed to be inspired in any way...at least to a layman like myself. Having called and emailed him (Dave) a few times it really came down to: "...buy this what we have, it will be good for you..., oh? you've got questions???...no, we don't do questions...", nor make an attempt to apprently convince YOU the customer that they have some great Mopar ideas (my conclusion), so I decided to move on.

Having previously built my valvetrain with their parts (cam, springs, shafts, retainers, etc other numerous parts) they have now completely lost out on my W2 stroker spend due to the poor customer experience I've had with them.

Yeah, you have commented on a few of my posts, but it's almost always some kind of slanted bs that no one here wants to read. I started this post curious to Hughes different series cams, was trying to find something on there roller cams, not that I wanted to buy one of their flat tappet cams although if someone wants to post about their flat tappet cams who am I to stop them. I have been aware of their flat tappet issues for awhile now and i'm all ears if someone posts about them because things do change over time, that's why I sometimes do post about something that has been posted in the past, because, like I said, things do change, but to the few that have an issue with my posts, maybe you should step back and look in the mirror, because no one wants to read that silly sideways sh!t and it just shows the kind of person you really are. Looks to me there are quite a few positive posts here about Hughes not all negative and I have learned it's not just a cam issue with them, but a spring issue as well. That's guys

^ A bit confused, you started the thread saying you weren't into roller and wanted SFT.

Now if "someone wants to post about their flat tappet cams who are you to stop them"? I thought that's what you were asking about.

"I don't want to get back into that maintenance gig, right now I'm happy with SFT cams"

?

When you ordered that BBC base circle did you get lobes from their BBC lobe list?
and yes base circle makes a difference
for others know your roller diamater before ordering
and I see no reason to use a small roller
except for the HR retrofit kits where you do not have a choice\

For the poster looking for a roller cam
give Mike Jones a shot his inverse radius profiles perform really well

Dude, dont whine about me. I will put my reputation on here up against your lame ass anytime.
This is a race forum. I race. Have forever, do all the time.
Have you ever even entered a race the whole time you have been a member here. Even once?
You are the only poster i have ever called out in 20 years on here for your repetitive, droning on and on threads
Its one of the reasons i very rarely come on here any more

You are the only poster i have ever called out in 20 years on here for your repetitive, droning on and on threads
Its one of the reasons i very rarely come on here any more

Well you could of waited another 20 years, Daves a good guy, a racer and he builds his own junk and runs it. You could not of picked a more dedicated mopar guy to disrespect.

Please join the benchracers.com if questions that lead to actual practical applications and racing a car have come to bore you.

I understand, I started the post because I was trying to find something on Hughes roller cams and then someone posted about their flat tappets, so I was curious to what their experience was with that and if their may have been any improvements, then more members replied about flat tappets and I just follow along for the most part. Sorry for the confusion. Don, I'm a hobbiest who would rather build motors and tinker in the garage than race. I used to street race a lot back in the mid 80's and yes to answer your question, I have entered in a race up at Ubly awhile back, but bracket racing is not my gig at all. I prefer heads up racing if i'm gonna race. If you don't like my droaning post, than why are you still reading them? Have a nice day Don.
Oh, and Don, here's my trophy. Do you have any?

Thanks for the invite my potatohead.

Cool tube amp

I'd take that Amp over the throphy any day.
I have 2ea 1 channel Mac's and will not sell them.

HiFi does not mean stereo but you can have Stereo HiFi. I have a lot of mono HiFi vinyl records mostly JAZZ.

Thanks Dywayne. I am an audiophile in the winter months usually. I like tube rolling as they call it, just another one of my hobbies.

Macs are top notch for sure. I have 2 different Chinese amps that sound surprisingly very good. I run them with modified Klipsch speakers which is another hobby as well.

I've had so many people say "Tube amps are so dirty." because of the 'WARM' hummmmm. It imparts color to the music that is missing with CD's and modern amps.

Yep, I like tubes with horns. Very natural sound. Sometimes a hum can be a tube going bad.

Years ago a friend made a 'CLONE' of a MSD 6A but used tubes, transformers and capacitors. It took a whole coffee table sized board. He did it as a joke but it worked.

They also tend to impart even-order harmonic distortion, which is not offensive to the ear and is often pleasing.
Odd-order distortion puts our teeth on edge. Not sure of the neuropsych reason for it...

Dave, what kind of amp is that?

Way off topic...........

Mopar Dave,
Which Klipsch ? I was heavy into Speakerlab.

LOL! That’s funny.

That is a PSVANE/Douk. Only 12w/ch but will drive my Klipsch Heresys to over 100db. $500 EBay special.

I apologize for turning this post into a stereo topic. I have Heresy now modded to Super Heresy and Cornwalls that are currently being modded into Cornscala’s.

Dave I used to have a pair of Cornwalls but they really had to be turned up too loud to get the best sound out of them. I had a dual amp system were you could run 2 sets of speakers with different volume imputs for each speaker and could blindfold someone and switch back and forth between them and the bose system and nobody could tell the difference but the bose sounded better at lower levels. Surprised me but for the room I was using them in they were just too big.

Oh and Dave Hugh is only about 70 miles away and is a trip.