issues with fresh 440

rebuilt '78 with diamond pistons,pep rods, eddy heads,crane roller rockers,Comp Cams 509 with Comp lifters.
I rebuilt this engine and everything went as smooth as silk. Primed the oil system and had 80PSI oil pressure. Installed it in the car etc.etc. Did the break in procedure with 10 w 30 and Comp break in additive all good. I noticed after break in the valve train was a little loud but not alarmingly loud. I changed oil to 10 w 40 and another bottle of additive. noticed oil pressure took longer then I liked to reach the top,about 30 seconds. shut down and restart it and would get about 30 psi on the gauge. shut it down and restart it and it would instantly jump to 80 and stay there until the next day.same thing all over again. decided to change back to amsoil z rod 10 w 30 and a new filter and oil pressure did the same thing but was faster to get up top.
Now with the new 10w 30 when the engine reaches temp I'm getting a loud clacking noise up top as far as I can tell. I readjusted the rocker's with a quarter turn from zero lash and fired it up again. cold the engine has no noise but when it reaches temp the clacking is back. lower rpm's to 500 and it get's quiet,raise it to 1000 and it's loud fast paced clack. I tore the top end off but lifter's are not scored but I'm no expert on the cam lobes to see if the wear is normal for a fresh cam. any idea's? Bad lifter maybe?

Did you cut the filter apart. It’s a very good thing to do after cam break in.

would some fine metallic paste be normal in a fresh engine? I was told it was

Pics

It appears from the picture that you are losing the lobes on the cam shaft. What did you use for break in oil?

Hard to tell by looking at a pic on my phone, but I don’t see anything alarming on the cam.
Pull each lifter and carefully inspect the bottom of it.

When cam lobes go bad, the lifters almost always go with them.
With as little run time as it has, the lifters should be perfect.
If you see something iffy on one, carefully inspect the corresponding cam lobe.

Did you check for lifter rotation during assembly?
What are the open and closed spring loads?
What did you use for cam lube?

Lifters look good
Springs are what came on the rpm’
Molly paste

1

Is it the camera flash or shop lighting that makes some of the lobes look shinier than others?

Don't know what to tell you about the valve train. If that is is a Comp Extreme Energy or what ever they call their most aggressive lobe profile hydraulic cam, they are noted for being noisy.

The only things I can think of besides a FUBAR oil filter that can make oil pressure come and go like that is a sticking relief valve or a spun pump drive that is now using friction to turn the pump.

If you changed the pump when you built the engine, did you disassemble it and clean it? It's amazing the machining trash you will find inside a new oil pump that can jam the rotors and twist the drive or hang the bypass.

Kevin

I was under the belief that once a lobe on a cam has wear across the whole lobe, its gone. Lifters are ground with a taper/crown. In that pic you can clearly see wear the whole way across a lobe. I think the cam is going flat. I would go back to the lifter/s and see if a tightening up quiets them down, although it sounds like you already did this once. If you have a dial indicator you could check lift off the top of a pushrod to see if its off the mark.

After a second look at the pictures, also looks petty dry up top for a just run engine. I would think that all the crevices/depressions would be full of puddles of oil.

The nose of the cam lobes will have contact all the way across.

It’s extremely unlikely all the lobes are going flat, so turn the motor over by hand so you can inspect the nose of each lobe.
You’re looking for one that’s obviously different than the others.

To address the oil pressure, I agree with pulling the pump all apart, clean and inspect.
Actually, before you pulled the pump, you could remove and inspect how smoothly the relief valve slides in its bore.

As for the noise, I think you’d be better off with more preload.
1/2 to 1 turn....... depending on the thread pitch of the adjuster screw.
I’d be shooting for .030-.040 preload.

1/4 turn isn't near enough pre-load on the tappets.

at a 24 thread that's roughly .010 - .012

#6 exhaust lifter face is slightly concave but no marks on it.

So that lifter is trash, at least... hopefully it was just "soft" and didn't damage the mating lobe, but I'd be worried about the cam too.

Let’s see a pic....... but....... it’s done.

What starts out as slightly concave becomes:

party over. clean the mess up and try a different cam/lifters.

I’ll add that if the cam being used is a Purple Plus 509 cam, those use .904 lifter diameter lobes.
Sometimes the factory lifter bore positioning is such that a .904 specific lobe has the profile running off the edge of the lifter.

“If it were me”, I would use a cam that had a lobe profile that didn’t require .904 lifters.

Assuming the PP509 was a good match for the overall combo, something like a 21-314-4 would provide for a similar powerband and “character”, but doesn’t require the .904 lifter.
You’d possibly be giving up a few ponies.

An Isky 292 Mega-cam would be another option, along with the Howard’s Big Daddy Rattler.

All of those recommendations assume you’re running headers.

Man they that stinks. I didn’t like the look of the shine I could see in that one picture. Did you have to crank this engine long on first start up and did you preprime the oiling system before trying to start it?

That's like you girlfriend being slightly pregnant...Cam and lifter time...I didnt see what your cam break in process was but its important to break in the cam properly.

Sorry miss typed. # exhaust

Stupid phone. #5 exhaust. Cam is Comp nostalgia.509 and comp lifters

Car is a 70 barracuda 727 with a 3000 stahl. 3:91. 440 40 over diamond pistons. 10.3-1. Quench is 38. Eddy rpms headers 21/2” magnaflow exhaust rpm intake and 950 carb

It doesn’t sound like it had much run time on the motor.
If so, and looking at the lifter, I’d say it started to fail right off the bat.

The cam is a decent match for the combo, other than perhaps if the converter really only flashed to 3000, it would be a little lower than what I’d consider optimum for a cam that size.

FWIW, for the last several years I’ve used Driven “BR” break in oil exclusively.

in my opinion this is the perfect time to step away from the hydraulic tappet. the solid tappet will perform better thru out the whole rpm band. if that type of lobe profile is desired I think i'd try the 294s with the 924 springs. even if the hydraulic tappet is a "must" the 924 springs can be used. just take the inner spring out for break in.

Yeah Ill have some time to consider a better option while Ill be tearing this thing back apart

When you put it back together make sure all the lifters are rotating when you turn it over. The push rods should spin like they are all gear driven off the same shaft.

Kevin

I just used a sharpie on the lifter and edge of the bore.

Strongly consider skipping all the flat tappet drama and just put a roller, solid or hydraulic, in it. No BS about using this oil, or that oil, starting it on the full moon, cranking it for 5 minutes while patting your belly and rubbing the Buddha or any other snake oil silliness. S/F....Ken M

Ya go with a roller cam because nothing ever goes wrong with them. Approximately fifty 6.50-6.60’s runs on a new set of Comp roller lifters before the link bar broke on my sons 360 trashing the whole engine.

You're comparing 50 passes with not even making it past the break in? Are you for real? S/F...Ken M

If the op has a lathe, or a friend that has one........ put the cam in it and indicate across the base circle of the lobes from front to rear.
There should be roughly .0015-.0020 taper on the lobe.

If the taper is good, there should have been good lifter rotation.

The cam I posted a pic of with the lobe gone had .0020 taper...... and it was nitrided...... and was using EDM lifters.
Owner was running regular SM rated oil, no additive.
It was also ground using .904 lobes.
The one lobe was gone, another one was pretty bad, two others were starting to fail.
That had one summer of use.

Replaced cam with something a little smoother, non-.904 lobes, ran it with inner springs removed for a longer period of time........ and continued to use Driven oil after break in.
It also was nitrided, and is using EDM lifters.
It lasted this past summer and seems to be surviving.

Ya I’m for real because I know and have seen the most cam failures happen because of the oil used, the builder missing something during the build, or improper start up. Most are to lazy to pull the inner springs or can’t set the timing close enough to get it up and running without cranking the hell out of it. Some don’t even start out with a fully charged battery. Some start with two year old fuel. Lots of reasons to blame the cam. Lol.

I've got 20,000+ miles on a solid lifter cam; 15 years of use. no stupid lobes and excessive spring pressure. haven't had the valve covers off in 3 years and probably won't take them off to set lash (lash is a non issue) or peak unless there's a leak or something breaks. it's not a race car but I drive it everywhere in the summer. power is adequate, reliability has been very good. I just use rotella oil, change it fairly often, hate wix filters. if it goes south tomorrow I figure I've gotten my $250 worth.

Question for you Fast- are CC hi-energy cams ground for .904” lifters?

How about other manufacturers - what are they ground for?

what don't you like about wix filters ?
what do you use ?

Were any of the lifters hydro locked?

drain back. dry starts. their just internet hype; monkey see/monkey do.

what is your preferred filter ?

I switched from fram to wix and thats when the issues started

If it has as little run time as I’m thinking, the “issue” of the cam/lifter going away began as soon as the engine was fired for the first time(or even before that).

Mmmmm, I don't think changing filter makers would wipe a cam & lifters, especially going to a superior filter.

I say "superior" because I've cut both brands apart and seen how they're made.

There are A LOT of junk counterfeit Wix oil filters out there, they look just like the real thing, & yes fram filters are junk.