511 Indy tunnel ram which carbs

working on another induction option. 511 with 12.5:1 compression a 270@50 SFT and an Indy 400-I4-15 t ram. Street/strip deal, which carbs would give best all around performance, 650,660 or 750? I see most like the 750's and there are some that like the 660's. My thinking is to err on the small side with the 650's. It seems the Indy tunnel ram has a very large plenum and I thought maybe the smaller carbs would help crutch this on this combo. 5100 stall and car weights 3380#. Appreciate your opinion on this. Thanks

I would throw the 660's in the river. Or sell them to someone still living in 1975. The absolute smallest carbs I would run would have a 1.410ish Venturi and 1.750 throttle blades. There is no reason you can't call Dom and do a couple of 1050 Dominators and really kick [censored].

No vacuum secondary carb. Most guys err on the small side and don't buy a cam for the TR. If that cam wasn't ground specifically for the TR I'd sell it and get one that is. And a minimum of two 750's. A very, VERY smart guy who worked for a very cool company once told me to really get the correct carb on a TR you double what you'd be using on a single 4. And he told me that in 1982. It still stands today.

I like the early non HP Holley 1050 CFM Dominator list #9375 on both tunnel rams as well as on a good single plane BB Mopar intake, those carbs flat work well ,
Especially with M.W type heads, more air and fuel = more power

So, you're considering a t-ram, or you've bought one?

The INDY tunnel ram has a SMALL plenum. IIRC it was about 300cc

Just researching it at the moment Brad. The m1 tunnel ram seems to be the one to have, but can't find one. The Indy is available and will most likely be the one I buy. This is just something I have always wanted to do since I was in high school. Mostly for the old school look for the car show or two I hit, but I don't want to lose any performance. Gonna black everything out and would like to use the black and grey ultra xp carbs. Think that would look sweet sticking up thru the black hood. Working sh!t tons of hours now, so i'm gonna get started on buying parts for this project. Should be able to get started installing them this time next year. The 511 will run with 12.5:1 compression as the only change next year, so I need to see for myself what a compression bump can do for performance. I read somewhere else too that a T ram likes a cam 7-10* smaller than your best cam in a single carb/standard intake combo and thought since my cam will be on the small side with the 12.5:1 compression it might work out quite well. When I do get a roller it will be for a t ram application, but for now this cam stays. I just want to get the carbs right as its the only question I have right now for this combo. I will be talking to Dom about this as well. It has crossed my mind running twin 750 Dominators, but I haven't seen any combos with those carbs. I have seen some that ran a single 1050, installed a T ram with twin 1050's and didn't pick up anything. Then there are some that ran a single 1050 and installed a t ram with twin 750's and went faster. So, right now i'm a bit skeptical on twin 1050's especially on the street.

Are you referring to the runner or the plenum? Pretty sure the plenum is more than 300cc. The 750's you have for sale, are they the ones in your avatar?

I believe the plenum on a single 4 should be 1.5x the volume of 1 cylinder so I wonder what a tr should be.Would the tr carbs be side mount or in line?

Can the M1 or Weiand TRs be ported to max wedge size as well?

Side mount only unless I run eddys.

No for either one.

I also have a low deck m1 t/r.

I like the idea on the annular boosters.

Is this for your car? If so, I'd recommend a pair of small Edelbrock carbs. If you brought the engine to me I'd run it with a pair of 500 cfm Edelbrocks on the dyno and go from there. That setup can easily handle 800 hp and from what I recall, you're not making anything close to 800 hp right now.

HardcoreB, your PM's are full. Shoot me a price on those 2 items. I may know someone interested.

Andy, I'm leaning toward Indy t ram with ultra xp 650's for my combo. How much power do you think the eddy 500's can make on my combo?

Just call me and we'll get you hooked up w/proven carbs like the several t-rams I've done w/great success..........I would not run Dommy's on that combo personally unless you want the "look" because they would have to be be sized down to run well imo.......

Could he run a single carb?

XP 650 carbs will cost a lot more than a pair of Edelbrock carbs. For your engine and your use the Edelbrocks will work fine and save you a ton of money. Or, if you're ready to go EFI get a dual Sniper setup with a Hyperspark distributor. Then you'll have full digital control of your fuel curve and ignition. You'll also have wide band feedback so you'll know what your air fuel ratio is and you'll be able to run data logs on the street or track. Something like that would answer a lot of questions that you have.

Good post. Glad somebody understands how a tunnel ram works.

I run 2 750's on my 505ci. The car went faster with the tunnel ram then the single 4. I drive it on the street and it runs well.

This makes no sense, on the one hand the advice is to save a buck by going with edelbrocks and then the next is the advice to spend a small fortune for a setup that, at best will equal a pair of well tuned carbs. (with the exception of cold start drivability)

As a reply to the OP's question, a pair of properly tuned 650 Holley's will run and drive quite well....although I'd go with the 750 Holley's as I've run both as well as 625-750 carter/edelbrocks and drivability is pretty much the same, but the 750's have equal throttle body sizes for a little more equal distribution.
Also, the annular boosters are available in the 750's to which I recently did a little back to back testing between them and downlegs, with the annulars having a "slight" et advantage over downlegs. I suspect with your car being a little heavier than mine, annulars would probably be the better choice.

This is where I figured he could save 1k$ by running his current 1050 single carb and get what 2 carbs he wanted later.

Yeah, alot of people run 750's on there t ram. I think twin 750 Holley carbs is the way to go. They can grow with your program and resale is probably better than the 650 as well. Good advise from hardcoreB. I think I have alot to learn here as this will be my first t ram.

It makes sense if you understand the benefits of EFI. Not only do you get full computer control of the fuel curve and the ignition timing but you also get data logging. If you have paid any attention to Dave's posts over the past year he could use a lot of help in all three areas. If he had a properly functioning EFI system on his car (which might not be a realistic goal) then he would be able to resolve a lot of his questions. It isn't really about maximum power output for Dave since he is way off that curve anyway.

When you get to the point of needing an initial calibration starting point, I'd be happy to let you know what my carbs ended up at for a start. I will add, that a fair amount of initial timing helps quite a lot as far as off-idle drivability. I have 28*initial 36* total.......starts fine hot 493 with 13.3-1 and 273* @ .050

Yes, I understand the benefits of EFI......since the middle to late 80's and in recent years it's just become the latest aftermarket shiny sale item.......does nothing better than a tuned carb, a little distributor work and a $600 +/- O2 recorder (again, with the exception of cold weather drivability and that can even be worked out with a little choke creativity)

It does make a car a little lighter.....in the drivers wallet area.

You're missing the whole point of the thread (and all of the other threads started by the OP)

Have Dom do up a set of 750's. You won't beat the performance. You can't beat the looks on his stuff.

Doms stuff is the best of the best for sure.

Thanks for the offer. Not sure what direction I will go yet, but if I buy the xp's and recalibrate myself I will need that kind of info.

I run 2 Eddy 800's and used to run the 750's. The 800's made more HP on the dyno and also were 1/10 quicker on the track with a back to back test. I do have a couple of sets of the 750's if interested.

Thatnks for the offer, but i'm staying with a holley 4150 carb. I'm familiar with the holleys and like their performance as well.

I spoke with Dom last night and I really would like to have his billet carbs poking up thru my hood. We determined 750's would be best for my combo. With Dom not only are you getting a premium product, but you also get premium service after the sale. With all that in mind I still have the urge to pull the trigger on a pair of ultra xp's and recalibrate myself. Also their is word out there that the Holley ultra xp line is not so good. Decisions decisions. I'm going to ponder this a few more days, but Holley 750's with downlegs is what Dom has suggested. I can get the Indy tunnel ram any time and I was just told Dwayne is an Indy dealer as well.

Like a lot of off-the-shelf carbs sold today, their calibration may be "less than optimal" for what they get put on.

This one doesn't suck as much as it used to, after a combination of work by AED and myself.

for the money that's gonna be spent on new carbs and a tunnel ram, couldn't you send the intake manifold to Wilson to be ported?

I could, but no longer interested. I will use it one more season and then it will go down the road as well as the Dominator.

If the calibration is the issue with the xp line, then that's not a big deal as I would be recalibrating the carbs for the t ram. I thought there may have been an issue with the venture design as well?

As Brad pointed out in the post after this one, the XP Holley's I have been into (3 total) and every one of them had a different calibration and they were all the same part number!!!!

The last one was about a month ago and I was pin gauging all the holes and the IFR were .059! On both the primary and secondary metering blocks. And the IAB's were normal. So I called Holley and got some guy on the line and told him that. I also told him the calibration differences between the three carbs. He had no answer for that. He also said the IFR for that carb should be .029!

The point is you'd be better off letting Dom get you sorted out, especially if you've never set up TR carbs because it's nowhere near the same.

If you are a guy who enjoys the process and you do want to do the carbs yourself (I have no problem with this because that's the best way to learn) long before I bought a Holley carb I'd buy the ProForm 750 and start with those. Much less money and just as good or better carb to start with.

Thanks for that piece of info. I have a good idea about whats needed, but I know there will be a big learning curve involved. I really like doing this stuff and not new at it. I do enjoy carb work, always have. I know if I buy carbs and do the calibrating myself, they will not be as good as Doms billet pieces. Carbs are very expensive and if ya want the best you have to step up to the pay window. That's my problem.

Depends on the model. The "950" w/ the 1.60" venturi seems like a step backwards, based upon Mark Whitener's battery of flow bench testing different carb body & booster styles. However, the smaller carbs are better. The one pictured started with an "850" main body having a 1.56" venturi.

Ok, I see. The 750 ultra xp would be what I would buy. I think they have a 1.375 venture.

YOU get it and Andy loves and pushes the EFI but once you TRULY understand how carbs work and how EASY they are to tune, EFI makes zero sense......

Come on Dom, with your experience they're easy for you to tune... but, physically replacing jets, air bleeds, etc. will never be as easy as making a few keystrokes on a laptop.
Loading up an entirely new tune in seconds from a file? Saving the old one on a thumb drive? Emailing your settings so someone else can upload them to their EFI?

What makes you think someone emailing you a tune up has a clue? It's still the same thing. If you can't read a plug and make a tuning decision it doesn't matter if its key strokes or brass you are changing.

And I lay the blame squarely at the feet of Holley for the stupid information they STILL disseminate and have allowed the authors who write books about Holley carbs to do the same.

If you call Holley today for other than simpleton info, you will most likely get bad info. And that's on Holley.

Although your point is not wrong, what makes you think I said or even implied that?
I was refuting the statement that "carbs are easier than EFI". That's all. Anything else, you inferred on your own.

Naturally, incorrect adjustments are also easier to do wrongly than by hand...
The old saying is that a computer can make a mistake in 1 second that it takes 1000 people 1000 years to make by hand

I agree. I just called Holley last week. I think I knew more than the guy on the other end of the phone.

If I had to bet everything I own on which one of you knew more, I'd lay everything on you. And I'm not joking.

Dave,

Still looking for more out of that combo I see......Is this for the motor in the vid in you're signature? What are you shifting at currently?

Me, I like the 750 or 650's.....What ever Thumper would recommend. I also like the Indy TR over the others for the larger plenum. My little 400 likes anything that gives it more plenum over what it has. The more I take out of the intake, the better it gets. The more spacers, the better it gets. Good heads need to breath....My 2cents...

If u call me w/info I can easily suggest a tuning change w/the bag of jets and bleeds I send in every single box that leaves here.......a 5/1/6 wrench and a slotted screwdriver is all we need and maybe a distributor wrench......

No, those are old vids of the small block. Here it is. https://youtu.be/PVAo6OkpMHg
I tried shifting at 6600 ,6700 and 6800.

AFAIK there is no good math for plenum volume, runner CC vs. carburetor CFM, too many variables like vertical distance from throttles to floor, CR, overlap.
The area in the plenum floor adjacent to the 5 & 7 ports has a longer and stronger vacuum pull than next to the 1, 2, 7 & 8 end cylinders.

Jenkins explained development of TR SBC 45 years ago.
1. make the plenum larger until power on a dyno stops increasing
2. this will have bad response in the car and bad mixture curve
3. reduce plenum 10%

I'm aware of that. The 4/7 swap cams were suppose to be a fix, but I don't think they did much as I see no one using them anymore. Would there be another fix for that I don't know about?

I don't think I have ever heard of grinding a cam for the tunnel ram intakes
I remember back when Modified Production was still racing the cam design and grinds where critical on the short stroke, small C.I. , drag race motors with tunnel rams according to those guys racing those motors back then
In todays world I look more at the application the motor will be ran in than the intake manifold, maybe that will all change when I go to racing a B1 motor with a tunnel ram with two 1050 CFM Dominator carbs.

I haven't either cab and I just searched it and didn't find much. I did read a post some where that a guy suggested a cam of 7-10* less duration with tunnel ram than what you would run with single carb.

There are two reasons why TR engines lose power.

1. Way too much cam timing. And I should add in the wrong cam timing.

2. Carb calibration. You have double the jet area, doubled the bleed area, doubled the emulsion but you did not double the air flow.

2 shouldn't be an issue for you because you A) like screwing with this stuff and B) you have Dom on speed dial I case you find yourself in the weeds.

Anyone who thinks cam timing doesn't change with induction is just wrong.

In fact, (dating myself a bit here) Coleman Roddy was the first guy (reportedly) to work with the 4/7 swap cam. Once he had a handle on it, he won the Comp Eliminator championship.

It's a big deal to get that sort of thing correct first.

Can't wait to hear your results.

Please read the rules before posting here. This is not the classified forum to buy or sell parts.

I've never heard of 383 truck motor, or 383 industrial or marine motor T
the only low deck H.D. truck, marine or indusrial motor I have heard of and seen are the 361 truck and industrial motors

This is what I run aon a 469 with a M1 low deck tunnel ram.

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...per/specialty_double_pumper/parts/0-9379

They work real good!

A pair of those is $740 refurbished from Holley right now. They don't come set up for tunnel ram, so what changes did ya have to make IFR, air bleeds, main jet etc?

here is an old old 440 dyno article with a tunnel ram and the 9379 carbs...

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0109-440-head-buildup-dyno-test/

Pry open thy wallet mon:

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...efurbished_carburetors/parts/FR-80803BKX

Signed,

the guy who saved up for a Jesel belt drive since 2006 (lol)

I just read about that a couple days ago. Seems the larger venturing flows less. I also read where someone bought an xp main body and it measured 3 different sizes out of the 4 boosters. Very poor quality control.

My experience w/ buying carbs & parts over the last few years has led me to believe the following: Every carburetor has the potential to be a piece of junk until someone goes through it and makes it "not junk".

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree. That's why I have no problem buying refurb from holley.

Based on a refurb that I bought directly from Holley, that's still no guaranty it's right outta the box.

Has anyone tried the Demon carbs Street Demon AFB style carbs on a TR? 625/750/850 cfm

Yeah, refurb is not for everyone, but I'm not afraid of it.

I had a low deck M1 TR on my little 451 in my DartSport with Eddy heads and 590 purpleshaft cam. I ordered custom tunnel ram 750's from Quickfuel, car weighed 3050# and ran a best of 9.89 at 136.
Carbs were spot-on right out of the box and they had a wedge-shaped fuel bowl floats that were supposedly good for tunnel rams if I remember correctly. These days I wouldn't hesitate to order carbs from Dom.

Good luck to ya Dave............Billet is best period so to save a few $$$ here and there to have issues and inconsistency makes no sense and I've seen first had the variances from venturi to venturs on some cast main bodys.....

It all depends on what's left after the holidays money wise.

I know the feeling! I've been working over 50 hours every week to get my Challenger upgrades done.