Quest for 9s.Cam choice or Chassi setup.

In my quest for 9s I'm having problems with my combination.
Planning on 4 link or ladder bars and Viking doulbe adjustable shocks this winter.
And hoping to cut another 200 lbs off the car.
Will I need more Cam to get there?
Any suggestions on chassi set up?



65 Coronet all steel except fiberglass lift off hood and scoop.
3595 lbs race ready.
465 rb, Ohio crankshaft, 7.1 h-beam rods, 12.78 CR
Comp .650/.651 lift 264/268 @ .050 solid roller
Comp 1.5 ProMagnum roller rockers
TF 270s, 2" fenderwellheaders
Indy Modman with custom top to increase plenum volume and space carbs out over runners.
Dual Eddy 750s
MF 300 pump, -8 fuel line to regulator -6 to carbs
A&A 727 transmission
8 3/4, 35 spline spooled, 4.30
SS springs, Rancho 9 way shocks
Calvert 90/10 front shocks

Best of 10.78 @ 124 w/ 200 lbs of ballist and a 1.56 60 ft.
Best 60 of 1.47

Is the 3595 with or without the 200lbs of ballast?

What does it run without the ballast?

Any pics of the intake/carbs?

I’d suggest seeing if you could borrow something like a 440-3 and a dominator so you’d really know how much that intake & carbs are costing you.

9’s??

Sell your short block, build a bigger one.

700 hp should be enough to get you into the low 10's or maybe high 9's if everything else is perfect. You can make 700 hp with that long block but you're going to need to get rid of the Mod Man intake. If you need to run dual carbs for NSS then you might have an issue. There aren't a lot of dual quad manifolds for MW heads that work all that great. I'd suggest putting a ported Super Victor on there with a good 1050 carb and see how fast you can go then try to figure out if you want to go fast or if you want to look cool. There are some guys going fast with the Indy bathtub intake so you might ask them what their combo is. I think they usually have much larger engines. I've run the bathtub a few times and they work better than an old cross ram, but they still aren't great. Indy didn't even provide a gasket between the top and bottom half. Maybe they've fixed that by now?

3595 withput the 200lbs ballist. I did not get a chance to run it without the ballist.
I run NSS class so the dual quads are required. I'll post a pic soon.

You are correct Andy I do run NSS so the dual quads are required. This intake top and divertor combo I developed for a buddies 500 low deck NSS Dart so figured I'd try it myself.

Andy. Is that cam capable of producing 700hp?

If you are going to do all the work to update the rear suspension, skip the ladder bars and go right to the 4 link.

Better check the rules first, and see if 4 links are allowed in NSS.

This is the top I've developed for a buddy. Moves the carbs out over the ports and adds 1 1/2" in plentum height.

We do have a few cars running 4 link setups in the Victory Performance NSS series.

Shouldn't be a problem. I made 775 hp with my pump gas 470 using TF 270 heads and a Comp 264/268 roller cam. You have more compression than I had so you should be able to make more power. The difference is I was using a really good intake manifold plus I probably had some other tricks that you don't have.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/

[Andy your articles are why I bought the 270s. I do need to port the intake as it does have huge steps on the roof of the runners where Indy did the cnc port match when opened to MW port. quote=AndyF]

Shouldn't be a problem. I made 775 hp with my pump gas 470 using TF 270 heads and a Comp 264/268 roller cam. You have more compression than I had so you should be able to make more power. The difference is I was using a really good intake manifold plus I probably had some other tricks that you don't have.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-vacuum-pump-help-engine-make-power/ [/quote]

If you're serious about running 9's then you should pull that engine out this winter and put it on a dyno. Buy or borrow a good intake and carb so you can run a comparison. I bet that the Wilson ported intake that I was using on my engine would pick up 50 hp over your current intake. But you aren't going to know it until you do some back to back tests.

...

Its coming out anyway so a trip to the dyno may be in order. I'll what I can do on barrowin a good intake a carb to make a comparison.

What is a good startin point for a 4 link setup. I'm thinking 55" out 7" off the ground. Any recommendations?

Sounds like a good idea. A couple of days on the dyno swapping intakes will give you a good baseline to work from. I have a customer with a similar car and engine combo to what you have and he runs high 9's. The biggest difference is he has a ported Super Victor intake and he is at 3400 lbs on the starting line.

Brent Wheeler runs a 500"? with a Mod-Man. I believe it has run 9.50. My N/SS car runs 9.25 on ladder bars very effectively. Been 1.240. No need for a 4 link. Not all associations allow 4 link.
Doug

Doug I think Brent is running a 540 and I'm interested to see what happens when he installs my raised top and divertors.

Bruce Lang is running a 470 in his 68 NSS barracuda with the TF270s and a Modman with 1 1/2 spacer best of 9.48 @ 3200 lbs.
I just can't seem to get my combination to work that well.
Primarily was wondering if I needed to go with more duration on my cam, like 280ish.

I have NEVER heard a guy with a 4 link say "wow I wish I had went with ladder cars" just sayin. Ladder bars can get the job done with ZERO issues for what you want. BUT if you are doing it 4 link is a much more desirable way to go, from terms of resale and tunability. Just my .02

280 is a lot of duration for that size motor in a heavy car. Take some weight off first.
Doug

what about monoleaf and caltracs. that would drop about 40 pounds. what tires you run.

What cam is in the Barracuda ?

9.50 should be in the 140mph neighborhood.
At 3200lbs....... I’d be thinking it would dyno at 750-770-ish.

124mph @ 3800 should only take about 610-620 on the dyno.

Joe went 140 @3220 in my old car on super stock springs. 9.66
Motor made 708 on Best Machine dyno
775 horsepower should run WAY better than 140 in a 3200 pound car.

MT 29.5x 10.5W

The card sent with it was the same as my cam .650/.651 by 264/268 @
050.
But he was told it has diffent ramp angles, so we're not sure.

I have used a smaller Comp Cams solid roller cam than yours in my old pump gas Duster that weighed right at 3450 Lbs. with me in it, that car ran a best of 9.993 at 134.6 MPH through the 3.0 inch full exhaust system to the rear bumpers on Oregon pump swill. It would run mid 1.40 in the 60 ft. with a older T/A SS 8.0 inch race hemi converter in the car.
It was a ladder bar car with coil overs rear suspension, 15.0 inch extended Strange double adjustable rear shocks with a set of Koni SPA front shocks on 315x60x15 M/T Et Street Radials back in the late 2000s and early 2010/2011
That cam had 260@.050 with .420 lobe lift on the intakes and 266@.050 with .409 lobe lift ground on a 108 LSA installed 1 to 2 degrees advanced on the intake lobes with a set of Harland Sharp 1.65 ratio rockers that netted right at.700 lift at the retainers with light weight checking springs with the lash set .006 tighter for the aluminum heads at room temps.
That motor was a 400 block bored to 4.375 with a 4.300 stroke Ohio Crankshaft custom ground stroker forged steel crank for street use, not a lightweight all out race only crankshaft That car and motor made me very happy, it exceeded my wildest wishes
You have room for plenty of improvements on your deal, now comes the hard part and where to start I would work on the chassis before trying to make more HP and torque
My reasoning is it not hooking well now with the HP you have so adding more won't help it hook, it should do just the opposite

I agree that's where I'm going to start. Get a solid suspension in, good adjustable shocks in the rear and see what she does come spring.

Thanks for all the advice. Please keep it coming I'm a sponge on this stuff. I'm not planning on stopping at 9.99 so any advice will be used and passed on down the road.

From what I’ve seen, the “typical” bracket car usually shows around a 10% lower HP number than the STP power from the dyno.
140@3220 shows 680hp...... which is only 4% off the 708hp dyno number.
Obviously, some cars are better than others(even in the middle of summer my friends stocker shows it makes more HP than it actually does).

140@3200 shows 675hp.

So, 750hp on the dyno.....-10%.....675hp uncorrected as the car is sitting on the starting line.

I usually shoot for 10% over what would theoretically be needed for a given MPH/weight.
If the car ends up being better than a 10% package and goes quicker.......let’s just say....... I haven’t heard any complaints when that happens.

In no way is this derogatory. I think something is missing in the current combo. You should be quicker now. I do not believe it is in the intake or carburetors. I am running the same combo.

Our NSS wagon has been 10.80s ( i do not remember the exact et )
It is a 30 over 440 with 10 to 1 comp, SR heads, indy dual plane intake, single edelbrock 750, 4.56 gears in a dana, caltracs, also a good converter, at 3775lbs

My old NSS combo went 9.80
It was a 493 or 496 ( i dont remember ) with SR heads, 12 to 1 comp, modman, a pair of edelbrock 750s, an older indy/comp flat tappet cam in the range of 607/614, with 4.10 gears in a dana, after several tries we found a very good ATI converter combo which is where a most of the ET came from. This is in a ladderbar car at 3600lbs

My this year NSS combo has been 9.49. I do not turn this motor hard. I have no doubt there is more in it.
It is an aluminum block 540 with -1 heads, also 12.1 comp, modman with Your upgrades, has had edelbrock 750s and 800s on it, comp 682/682 roller with 284/288, with 4.10 gears and so on. The car is lighter with the aluminum block.

I’m a big proponent of dyno testing what you have before making any changes.

Including the fenderwell headers.

If the STP dyno numbers are close to within 10% of what the calculators show for your weight and speed....... then it’s unlikely you’ll find a bunch of improvement without finding more HP.

The "Jaws" analogy...

That car was on super stock springs, cheap 3 way CE shocks. Nothing trick for sure. Maybe its just more the fact the dyno was more real world than others

So did my upgrades gain you anything significant on that 540?

I have been at a race every time its been out since the changes. I have been more focused on slowing it down to an index. It is quicker. I just dont know how much yet.
I will get to a test n tune or 2 in the next month and let you know.

It doesn’t have to be anything trick to be a well matched, well sorted combo.
My friends Stocker uses Cal-Tracs and split-monos........ and in anything but very poor weather conditions shows the motor to make more power than it actually makes.......... and in good air...... way more(like 40-50hp more).

That’s tested on the same dyno where the typical result is usually a car that is showing close to a 10% loss.

Don, what does the Dart weigh on the line and what’s the best MPH?

FWIW, the last "iteration" of my Challenger only showed about a 4% loss between that dyno and "net" HP based upon weight & MPH (~610 HP on dyno for the in-car config; 126.5 MPH at 3755 #s on track w/ full exhaust, etc.).

Which is why I feel a dyno test of the OP’s motor as it is would be worthwhile.

If you look at the build specs, it’s hard to imagine it wouldn’t make at least 625-640hp....... yet shows nowhere near that by the speed/weight.

The moroso chart shows it as making about 558hp.
So, either the motor is an underachiever........ or the car isn’t making as good use of the power as it could.
At 625hp STP dyno power it would be an 11% combo.
At 640hp it’s a 13% combo.

For the OP’s package to be a 4% combo....... the motor would only be making 582 STP HP on the engine dyno....... which seems unlikely.

3285. Its tickled 119 couple times when i still had the 727 in it. Swapped to a 904 and its only been about 1 mph down. Convertor is a bit too loose.
I am contemplating taking this 360 out and swapping out stock rods and pistons for aftermarket rods and pistons but cant seem to find a slug that gets me between12 to 1 and 13 to 1 with these 58cc eddie heads, might open up the heads some more too.
Have a 418 shortblock sitting around, but if i go that route might be needing a rearend upgrade too, and dont want to go that far..... so may sell it to pay for upgrade on my stock stroke motor. High 10’s in good air would be realistic

3285 with you in it?
At 119 that shows 426hp.

Yours is a 360 with ported RPM heads, aftermarket intake manifold and Holley HP type carb, with a .560-ish solid cam.

Now....... if you tested that on the engine dyno, back to back against my friends 350 Pontiac Stocker motor...... stock small valve heads that flow 200, .420 lift cam, stock intake and a q-jet carb...... which do you think would put up a higher number?

I have no idea. I know my motor is a pooch. Factory stock low compression shortblock. And the heads are far from fully ported. Local guy whittled on them one night after supper and was done well before before the 11 news. Then valve job at our local NAPA. 350 for the headwork
Low buck deal, but tickled how consistent and trouble free its been.
I am sure that stocker has way more attention to detail.... lol

Fast68 this exactlywhy I started this thread. I know something is not correct in the combo and only racing for a few year I'm look toward people with more experience to help guide me were I need to focus my attentions next.

Looks like I'm heading to the dyno, doing the suspension and good shocks, and I going to have the convertor freshened (as I was told it's roughly 12yrs old) the this winter.

Don, the motor does have nice attention to detail....... but you feel that some attention to detail is worth as much as ported aftermarket heads, a good intake, fancy carb, and a big cam?

Would you feel it’s reasonable to assume all your aftermarket stuff vs his stock stuff (with some attention being paid to the details) would be a wash power wise?

Frankly, if they made the same power on the dyno, that really wouldn’t be a very good endorsement for all those aftermarket parts.

Neither motor has been on the dyno, but I’d certainly be disappointed if your combo couldn’t beat those 200cfm cfm heads, stock intake, and q-jet.

However....... it does “show” it’s making about 50hp more on the moroso chart......475hp.
10.80@123 at 3350lbs.

We haven’t dynoed the 350, but there’s no way it makes 475hp.
That’s pretty close to what the 400 makes....... and the 400 has run over 4mph better than the 350.

My whole point about all of that is...... some cars make way better use of what power they have than others.

From what I’ve seen......a 10% combo isn’t at all uncommon.

Also, it’s often cheaper and easier to just “build in” some extra power when doing the motor than it is to try and figure out what’s wrong with the car.

When it’s not a “performance catagory” where how fast the car goes actually matters....... if the car runs the number you want........ but the efficiency isn’t great........ do you really care?