Do you use offset lifters with you 440 -1 heads?

I see a few offset options listed for use with -1 heads. Research dictates some use .180, some use .210 and others use no offset. Any -1 owners care to share?
@dvw
@HardcoreB


Ps infolinks blows @moparts


Tom you are going to force me to facebook...

I have both Harland Sharp and T&D rockers but it’s been so long since I’ve run those heads I honestly forget what they are. But I’m sure it’s listed on their website

I may be putting together a 512 mega block build with my 440-1 heads and a 1150 alcohol carb over the winter

I run straight rollers, Comps.

This site is going down hill fast with the stupid adds

I have BAM .210-offset intake lifters in my RB block w/ Victor heads. With a .600"-offset intake rocker, no problems. When I mocked up some T&Ds .725"-offset MW Victor intakes, some of the intake pushrods rubbed against the casting bosses the block has for the most inboard head bolts. Considering most Indy 440-1 intake rockers I've seen have a .800" offset, that would only make the clearance issue worse.

I suppose the alternatives are either grind additional clearance on those bosses (which I've seen done) or see if no-offset intake lifters move the pushrods far enough away from the block bosses to not have a problem. But then you have more severe pushrod angularity, which would be even more on a low-deck vs RB block. Everything's a trade-off.

PBR - I have a set of 1.7 Jesel paired rockers so that is already set in stone.

FastMop-Thanks for the info IIRC that is a tall deck? What RPM do you spin it to?

B-rad: I appreciate the info on the .210 BAM lifters. I think that is what Mike Jones sells and I am looking hard at the steel on steel bushing option. Being a low deck I have better get the heads back and mock everything up. FWIW I used Isky .180 offset on the intakes of my Victor motor and it helped the p/rod angles significantly.

Another stupid question - With p/rod oiling (Jesel paired blocks feed from block) can I run a solid body lifter or do I need the oil band? If so how do I know which lifter won't uncover the band at full lift? My first guess is that I will have to get specs on the prospective lifters and compare them to the cam lift.

The Valiant goes to 7000 RPM, Ka-BLUE-E goes to 7600 RPM

Might be smart to buy one pair of lifters and mock things up before you buy the complete set.

Any offset intake lifter is way better than none on low decks with any offset intake rocker heads
On my current bracket motor with Jesel paired shaft rockers I started it off with pushrod oiling with Comp Cams lifters with no oil band, I added spray bar oiling also but I'm going to remove that now as the pushrod oiling is doing way better than I thought it would

Sorry I misread your post. For some reason this is the only site that when I go to on my phone I need my bifocals.

Ok this is what I ran into with 440-1 heads. Standard (zero) offset roller lifters worked with my stock blocks (3/3 pushrods) but when back in 2008-2009 I had to buy a set of offset lifters for clearance on my Keith Black block. The shortblock was built and I didn’t want to tear it apart to grind clearance. When I tore it apart the next time I did some valley grinding so this would no longer be an issue. Some of these bigger pushrods cause some clearance issues.

Some pics, in case it helps.

One (the one w/ the notes added) was something I found that Jim Hanrahan (440Jim) posted years ago. Looks like Jim's picture was taken w/ zero-offset lifters, but annotated to show where grinding would be needed to use offset intakes..

The others are from the mock-up I mentioned above. If you look closely at the #3 intake, you can see the masking tape I put on the pushrod is being torn off due to lack of clearance w/ the block boss. The intake pushrods were all really close, even if they didn't rub.

This site is going down hill fast with the stupid adds [/quote]

I use google chrome at work, mozilla at home...No adds was annoying til i changed

Remember to limit your comments, search terms, sites visited to what the craziest Democratic candidate would agree with, because Google's file on you (your e-mail, IP address, log-ins), shall we say, is not private and personal?

I like correcting pushrod angularity, but this must be weighed against "does it require a smaller pushrod OD than the other lifter choice"? The usual rule: if you're not sure your pushrod is the largest one that fits... it's too small.

Interesting. I'll give you call once I know enough to have an intelligent conversation lol. : D

Good thoughts on the tapered push rods. I will most certainly watch out for that.

On the Google ads subject - Hilarious stuff shows up due to sharing an internet with my wife. When she is shoe shopping I know whats up and when I am looking for car parts (roller lifters) she starts getting ads for Isky and Comp. Funny stuff but yeah I hear you on that front JD.

Excellent information, thank you sir! I have a pic of my 511 with the .180's somewhere. Will see if it is in the readily available archives.

100% spot on. I'd rather spend $100 and know everything is right instead of making compromises due to a hasty decision in the past. This motor needs to make good power as it is going in the grudge/no prep car. After having so much darn fun at the last two events I am wanting to get going for 2020. Might even have some sponsorship $$$ to help with parts we have yet to buy and some fresh tires.

AR Engineering sure would look cool on that black car lol.

Andy, do you have any single sets of offset roller lifters in your mock up stash?

0 offset Comp Cams 829-16s work just fine with 440-1s and 1.6 T&Ds. Pushrods are 3/8" Smith Bros.. Mega Block. Been running this 540" combo for 10+ years...zero issues



What ads??

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Mine has Isky red zone bushed offset lifters, Trend 7/16"x .165" tapered pushrods, T&D 1.7 paired rockers. Pac 1224 springs and matching retainers. It hurt the bushing in one lifter early. Isky repaired it at N/C. Close to 350 passes now with no issues. T&D's were purchased used with ? passes before I bought them. 3 shafts were brinelled on the exhaust side after aprox 400 passes. Added 3 new shafts and all bearings as maintenance. No issues close to 600 passes. Swapped springs at 200 passes. The old set pressure was the same as when they were installed. Pushrods were purchased used, no issue ever. lash seldom moves, maybe 2 rockers.001" at checks. All told the system works great. Cam is Comp with RX1718 intake lobe, XCX 1862 exh lobe.
Doug

I am also very tired of the damn ads popping up all the time. I will look into getting the ad blocker that has been mentioned. Sorry to hijack.

I had 440-1 heads on my low deck 512. 3/8 push rods. I did have to clearance the heads some why to keep from rubbing. No big deal. The cam had a lift of around .650” lift.

You can see some of the grinding I had to do on the deck and valley in this picture

I don't like the resulting angles with the offset rockers and lifter seats, but I suppose it's still less extreme than a Gen 2 Hemi valve train.

And then there is the argument concerning side loading the roller lifter. What is harder on the lifter, side loading the lifter bore from pushrod angularity or side loading the roller with the offset cup?

Less p/rod angle equates to more net lift, correct?

I forgot to mention that part of my block prep includes cutting those lugs off when deburring the block.

What kind of spring pressures are you running? Are those t and d rockers paired or shaft? Do you know the intake rocker offset? I think Brad mentioned .720 previously.

.725 is T&D's MW Victor offset and .800 is their 440-1 offset for the standard replacement kit. No idea if that's different for the paired intake & exhaust config, though.

Re lifter loads with angled pushrods and/or offset pushrod seats... good question.

I'm using INDY shaft rockers. Ole junk stuff that has been good to me.

The springs are K-950s. The T&Ds are the shaft type. Can't recall the offset. No problems with the shaft style rockers, but looking back, I should have went with the paired rockers for the obvious benefits. But the heads were on and i didn't want to remove them for the required machine work.

Good info thanks boys. I will get the heads back and see how it looks.

What are you looking for? I have a used pair of IMM (COMP-style) with centered exhaust and .180"-offset intakes. What I don't remember is whether the intake offset is for #1/#5/#4/#8 or #3/#7/#2/#6, though.

EDIT: While digging around for more pushrod angle stuff, I came across this old thread on the subject: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...angles-b1-ts-2-hemi-99-goodwin-hemi.html

Thank you , good stuff. Thanks for probing the subject over on ST also. I will look past that violation of our agreement lol. I have not had time to harass uncle Dino about the heads. He said he would work on em.

Something about a little power outage in CA has been keeping me pretty tied up lol.

Good stuff keep it coming!

Never having had my hands on a set of 440-1s... since a .800" rocker offset is used for centered (zero offset) lifters, would using a .180" or .210" offset lifter allow for using less rocker offset?

EDIT: Checked on the used lifter pair I have and they are for #1/#5/#4/#8

Probably not, the intake port width doesn't change with the lifter offsets, correct

It would depend upon where the closest point between the pushrod and the head is. If the clearance issues are closer to the bottom of the outside port wall, then moving out the pushrod seat could increase clearance there while allowing for less rocker offset at the top where there isn't a clearance issue.

Like I said, I'm not familiar enough w/ the 440-1 to know what is/isn't possible in that area.

Outstanding. I have the rocker gear here so let me see what the intake offset is.

Seems to be no 'wrong' answer on this but I like straight pushrod angles. I would hazard that a 3/8" prod 'system' would like an offset lifter moreso than a 'good' 7/16 prod. Sorry for delay.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Sean. I am going to grab a head from the machine shop to do some figuring. I spent a few minutes trying to measure the rocker offset but never really figured out a good way to accurately measure.

I am going to get the PR angles straight with offset lifters if needed.

PM me if you need to borrow the .180"-offset lifter pair to mock up stuff.

Thank you I will post up some pics and we can chop it up lol.

ANYTHING you can do to straighten the pushrods out will be beneficial in the long run. FWIW I run offset lifters in my Predator with what most here would consider and insane amount of open pressure and ZERO issues. We went to extremes to make the pushrods as straight as possible and the 9/16"
double taper pushrods required a good deal of clearancing in the block. I have done the same with my -1 engines over the years as well. One thing many seem to miss is pushrod length as well, RARELY can you use the same size pushrod on each valve with offset rockers or lifters.

Thank you for the insight Al. That gives me faith we qre on the right track.

A little run down on what the parameters are:

Max lift : .800I/.785E

Target installed ht: 2.050" (Isky 9998-RAD)

Current valve length: 5.344I/TBD

So far with the intake valves that came in the head I am getting about 2.02 " IH on the intake with no spring cup installed and a +.050 lock. I think a 5.444" OAL might work f i used a standard height lock and Isky .045" spring seat. Only issue thus far is nobody makes a 2.25" diameter valve, only a 2.30. I might call Manley and see if they can do us up a set of Super Alloy ex. and Severe Duty Intakes. I am also consodering coated Ti is I could find a deal lol.

So many details to be ironed out...

Titanium will allow you to get whatever you NEED, but comes at a price for sure. Could not tell you the last time I did a "race" motor without titanium intake at the very least. FWIW I am screwing together a 600-13 headed deal for our dragster right now and am using an offset lifter of course.

I checked the scrub pattern and it looks like the +.100 BBC intakes are looking good. I think it is worth buying a new set of valves from Victory. DLC coating and hardened tip are a must as i have no room for a lash cap.

Also want to avoid BeCu seats.

How does the coating last? Is it worth going Ti for the 5.369x.81 exhaust valves?

The other thing is installed height..way too short even with my favorite +.050 retainer +.050 lock combo. Im hoping we can shave .055 off of the spring seats to make room for the 2.05"x1.600" spring and a .045" spring cup.

Those are steel valve spec pressures so maybe Ti will allow for a less aggressive spring?

What am I missing with that height mic reading?
Looks like 2.200+

No experience with the coated valves, but I can tell you that big springs/Ti valves/50*/Indy seats didn’t get along well at all.
Someone sent me a set of 572-13’s that didn’t have all that many runs on them to freshen....... and the valve faces had worn/eroded very badly.
Several had absolutely no margin left at all and were like razor blades.

Only you would catch that! It measures correctly by the radial hash marks but the vertical is a progressivley worse as you get past 2". Got it from Isky a while back. Do you have a favorite brand of spring height mic? It definitely 2.02ish.

The guys that were running these heads before me omitted and spring cups or locators due to only having 1.88" IH on a 1.625" spring. The heads aee very old so i imagine they have been through many hands.

Okay so after some research I am looking at the following:

Trick Ti Intakes coated, 5.344x2.25x.342
Moldstar seat
Inconel Exhausts 5.369x1.81x.342
Seat TBD

I am also thinking i can possibly use a little less valve spring on the intake and match the exhaust psi to those? To be honest I always wondered why the spring pressures were identical intake to exhaust considering that the valves are dissimilar in weight.

If i could get away with a 2.000 IH that would put me in Isky 9999-RAD land which is what ee used in the other 511.

I had a very interesting conversation with an old acquaintance from Wegner Automotive Research about my valve train and interest in Ti valves. They build a lot of different engines from pullers to high speed oval stuff to SCCA T/A. He is a proponent of keeping the valve spring as small and light as possible to help endurance/reliability vs. the old school (and my adopted) way of bigger is better. Some interweb reading indicates that folks like Reher-Morrison agree with this approach.

So far the sum of this research points me towards CrN coated Ti valves in them and use a small OD spring/retainer to lighten things up as much as possible. I know several Manley dealers so that is who will likey supply the valves/locks/retainers/keepers/springs. It's funny to look at a high zoot drag race spring for our Dinosaur motors and then look what they offer for modern platforms (LS, Gen3. etc). I see a trend with much shorter installed height, a non-interference fit between inner/outer springs, steeper ramp angles on the springs and they are a whole hell of a lot lighter of course.

Anyone tried sing little springs like this yet? How'd it fare?

And before we get overboard with the cost of things a) my wife is all for Ti valves so can it lol and b) all those years of not having cable or not smoking cigarettes pay off : D

Dwayne I asked about the poor seat material and possibility of tuliped valves as a result of this. No feedback at this time. DO you have any more thoughts on what might have caused that issue?