A trip to Milan dragway for some TNT

Another learning curve for sure. Tried a few things to find what it likes and dislikes. I first added more pump gas to the tank diluting out the 2 gallons on 110 I added last weekend at MidMichiganMotorPlex, installed new champion race plugs c63cx(7 heat range) and removed my electric fans and replace with a 17" aluminum flex fan. Off the trailer was the best pass with a 10.666@127.30 vs the best pass last weekend of 10.401@129.75. 2nd pass I had the air bell removed just to see if it would again hurt it with nothing on top on the carb and it did. 10.669@126.19, 1mph loss. 3rd pass I switched the HS air bleed from 28 to a 30 to see if it would help on the bottom and it did not, in fact it leaned it out way too much on the top with 13.9afr thru traps and ran 10.715@126.05. 4th and last pass, put the 28's back in, put the air bell back on and removed the 1" wilsons tapered spacer. It ran a 10.711@126.47 with much cooler air. It should of picked up more than that IMO, so the looks like the spacer stays on. I should have put a bigger jet in the rear, maybe 2 sizes, because it was running 13+afr's every pass. I think the flex fan cost about a 10th or 2 and 2 or 3mph. Timing was left at 36* on every pass. I ran 1 brand new plug 1 time down the track. I will cut it open and post a pic. Only way this cars going any quicker is with some hard parts changing, like 440-1 heads and a nice Roller. Not impressed with these Victors.
Here's a pass down the track.
https://youtu.be/mKG7lJhLuac

Good Video, I think it could use more converter. You are still legging out 1st gear for 2000 more RPM after the flash. I am not a big block guy but that seems like a lot to me.

Why did you switch the fans? Your runs you made awhile back I think you said it ran 129MPH or so but 60d in the high 1.4s. I would look on the short end of the track for improvement.

Thanks for the video.You tested a lot and got a lot of info so good job!

Yeah, think so. Lenny must have tightened it up. I did tell him street/strip. It used to stall/flash to 5400 behind my 408 SB. It now stall/flashes to 5100 behine the BB.

Yes and I know what works best for it as is. It is a street car, so fairly happy with it anyway. Here's a pic on a single pass plug.

I switched the fans because I could not get the electric fans to cool at road speed. Ran 218-220* most of the time. If I stopped or slowed, temp would pull down to 200-210. Flex fan cools much better ,205 max, but it does cost a few hp.

No black specs,cool.

Yeah, no black specs. That run was with Dom's original tune. If you watch the AFR's in the vid it was running 13.9 thru the traps. A tad lean with the 30 HSB.

I couldn't see the a/f dial clear and was looking at the color if it changed.
I can read it going full screan.TY!

No ET national at Milan runs a pro tree. Got caught sleeping a couple times.

What motor, spec, weight ?

67 Barracuda 3380# race ready
511 LD 11.25:1
MW victor heads cnc'd by hughes 330cc port flows 356@.600 .700
uses HS 1.6/1.5 rockers
SFT cam spec'd by Dwayne 270/276@50-.644/.615-110
Indy 400-3 with 1" 4 hole tapered
2" mad dog headers 3.5 coll
727 w/reverse manual
8" vert 5100 stall/flash by Lenny@Ultimate
Dana 4.10 28" M/T ET R radials
I have read on other mopar sites guys using these victors disappointed as I unless they have 13:1 or more compression. Not many make over 700hp with the victor head.

IMO, that 63 Champion is a bit cold for that CR on pump gas. You can get that in a 65. That's only 1 range hotter. Without seeing the shell it's hard to say how much hotter you should go, but I'm going to say that 63 is too cold.

I'm not sure, but I was under the understanding the c63cx was the hottest in that style.

Been thinking again lately how much if any the 1.6/1.5 rocker combo is hurting me with the cam lobe spec .403/.410? Most think its not an issue.

Yeah, I had to look it up. The C63CX is the hottest in that style. If you can find them, you can get a C63 which is one range hotter, but it's a fine wire plug with the standard ground wire. The C65YC is the same heat range as the C63 and is one range hotter than that C63CX you are using. So the C63 and the C65YC are the same heat range, with different tip styles. BTW, the C65YC is an extended tip, which IMO is better for pump gas stuff.

I used to remember this stuff off the top of my head. Tonight I had to get the book out! Sucks getting old.

Ok, good to know as I run an extended tip plug on the street. Currently using a Autolite 53. What part of the plug are you reading for heat range? I thought that plug looked kind of on the hot side looking at the ground strap. I understand the getting old part real well.

what kind of electric fan setup did you have on ? OEM style or aftermarket ?

Dave, don't take this as a dig at you or your car, but am I the only one who feels like this combo should be faster than it is?

For comparison, my 3700 lb cuda w/ a stock stroke 440, unported Indy SRs, old Team G intake w/ a 1050 dominator, mid 260s at fifty solid roller, and 14:1 compression went 10.40 at 129.1 mph. 5k stall 727 w/ 4.10s and 28" tires. The only thing my combo had better than yours is higher compression.

If there isn't something up w/ the heads, it might need a lot looser converter to get it moving? Have you had it on a dyno?

Kinda what i thought. Figured on relatively easy 9 sec time slips

I replayed the vid a few times.

Def doesn’t seem like it has enough stall, and sounded like it was legged out a bit too long in 2nd gear.

If that’s the best shift point, iiwii, but it “sounded” like you waited too long.

If you’re running it with the ex closed up, I’d def try uncorking it.

330cc is a fair amount of volume for 356cfm, although I realize some of that is the runner is length.
That’s not far from what the TF270’s or a set of EZ295’s flow, with noticeably smaller runners.

You have to need that extra volume for it to pay off........ and an 11.25:1 511 just may not need it.

As for the victors and power....... I was pretty happy with Brads std port victors on his 452.
Nearly 700hp with a (relatively) easy on parts roller cam.

I’m sure with a little more aggressive cam, an HVH super sucker/4150-4500 adapter and a decent 4500 carb it would have crested 700hp.

The ported MW versions seem to end up quite a bit bigger, but don’t flow much more.

What are the 60’ times?

Did you go over the scales?

As with every new combo, you have to start somewhere.

I was thinking the same thing... get the exhaust of that car before you worry too much about the ET potential.

I've seen plenty of cars where taking the exhaust off was a night and day difference, even with a known brand muffler.

Also... just thinking out loud... what's it got for an aircleaner on it? I've seen funny things happen on that end of the engine airflow too.

No dyno time.

Most runs were with an air bell, but I did run it with a 3" drop base and it ran maybe .05 slower.

Looks to me loser vert for sure. Flashes 5100, what would you suggest?

Ran the car in street trip to get a good idea of what I have here. Now I know. Exhaust is very short and computed on my pipe max program. Its 3.5" pipe with 34" lenght using extreme muffers oval straight thru design, similar to a Borla.

Dwayne, I scaled it last year at a cat scale , 3380 with me. The best 60 was last weekend at 1.45 with timing at 34*. You spec'd this cam on a 110, do you think something narrow would help like maybe a 108?

As with any street/strip car that’s trying balance the two modes of operation, it’s just a pile of compromises.

In order to improve one aspect of the operation, you have to give something from the other side.

Aside from maybe more cubes...... not usually any down sides to that other than fuel consumption.

I don’t think a different flat tappet cam would provide “much” performance improvement....... with no other changes to the combo.

It would probably be better if it was faster, and slightly smaller, and a little tighter........ and that would possibly run worse on the street with mufflers on it......... and would need pretty stout springs, which will impact reliability in street use.
But...... if that were more than about .10 I’d be surprised.

There’s always some trade off.

This is why I like to dyno the motor before installation.

If you knew it made enough power to run a 10.0 you wouldn’t mess with it. You’d concentrate on the “car”.

So far at least, it looks like you need to find 50-60hp worth of mph to get into the 10.0 zone.

My guess is, if the motor were on the dyno, the hp numbers would look better than what the ET indicates the power is.

I agree with all of that. Originally when I built the engine I was happy with mid 10's, but most know how it is, you always want to go faster. So I guess I hit my goal, but now want a 10 O car that I drive on the street. As long as it idles at a traffic signal and can be driven 100 miles one way I'm happy. Weekend car only. I have no p steering or brakes. If a cam change is only a 10th it's not worth it to me and I dont want heavy spring pressures either. I use the Indy 400-3 which I believe flows way over 400cfm, do you think a smaller intake like a trick flow would help? The last part are you saying my power is locked in the vert?

Dave: have you tried 34 degrees on the timing yet?
All the stroker bb we have taken to dyno have liked between 32 and 34 .
On the track, in the high humidity/ heat here this time of year, i will go to 35 or 36 as long as we dont lose anything.
We run pretty lean in this air- 13- 13.4 , any richer than that we lose time and mph.

If we are at 700 ft for track with a 3400ft da and sitting on 12.8 - 12.9 afr at 34 degrees of timing and off our number , i will pop it with 36 degrees to help with water grains and that pops our afr back up, usually gets us back towards are number.
Cooler weather/dryer air- our engines always like 34 degrees timing .

Just thinking with you.
Can you download your afr data and look at it for the whole run?
fwiw- I have one carb with Doms tune in it and , like you, tried a bleed change and it didnt help.
Once i got to where i could see the afr charted for the whole run- bleeds were dead not from Dom- fwiw.

More great info. Yes I ran 34* last weekend at another track in mine shaft air and it ran it's best pass at 10.401@130. Doms carbs are awesome.

What rpm are you leaving the line at and shifting at? Didn't see the shift lite come on till you were at the stripe or just past it. I shift around 6200.

I have tried 6600 6700 and 6800. Seems to run out at 6700. Launches better at 2500 and up. With the same vert my small block launched nice at 2000 with 60ft of 1.45. Lenny must have really tightened this vert up. It goes thru the traps at 6900 with 5.75% vert slippage.

Agree with others,the package as a whole should have plenty left in it. Running an A body at 3250lbs 520ci 11.6:1 pump gas with otb trickflow 270s solid roller with similar specs on cam from dewayne. Old fenderwell headers and 3.5 in exhaust and mufflers dumped behind driver. Ultimate 8in converter set up very tight for nitrous, 727. 3.70 rear gear on a 325/50 radial. Best pass so far with zero track tuning is 10.003 at 130.50mph on a 97 degree day at Charlotte dragway. Leaving off footbrake at 2800 and shifting at 6200.

I should have tried short shifting it at 6000 just to see, but I think the vert could use an adjustment as well.

Next question is, how loose should it be and would it be best to have the 8" adjusted or would a loose 9.5" be better for my application?

I think those heads went 9.70's in a 3,500 pound RoadRunner.

You and I have somewhat similar heads.
Mine are 325cc CNC 440-1 with 2.19 intake
2 to 2-1/8" TTI
505 tall deck
10.9 compression
260/268@50 585/600 sft
93 Sunoco with ethanol
Indy dual plane
1000HP
Shift at 6300/6200
Full 3" exhaust to the bumper
8" convertor
3.54 gear
9x28 M/T pro bracket radial
Flat steel hood
Scaled at 3,930

With no headwind i'm in the 10.90's at almost 123

So if Someone did the math and took 600 pounds from my car and toss in 4.10's
The i'd be in the 60's or 70's perhaps

Yes, you know the guy that had these? I bought them from Todd at compititionwedgeengines and he did say they were running 9.50's or 9.70's on a Roadrunner. Maybe someone can do the math. Would like to know the rest of that guys combo.

Hey, I saw myself in the video, lol. I wish I would have saw you out there, it would have been cool to see the car run in person and meet another Moparts member. I was in the D100.

3,500 pound RR
Stock type 6 pak hood
511 tall deck, filled block
727....footbrake
Dana...4.30 iirc
Split leaf and caltrac
Rancho 9 way
Under .620 solid roller
Bracket duration
1.5 rocker
Under 13:1 compression
110 fuel
STD port Super Victor intake
1050 Dominator, non HP body
9" convertor
Swinging Milidon
2" to 2-1/8" TTI
12" collector extension
32* or 33* timing
6al

Cool! Don't recall seeing that. What color?

So, your the guy that used to own these mw victors? Looks like they are fully capable of doing what I want, so you think its just in the vert?
Every combo I have see making good power (700+) with the victor MW also had about 13:1or more compression. Maybe they just lazy on pump gas motors.

It’s multicolored. Lol

Don't recall seeing that. i'll watch the vid to see where you were at. How did it run?

One thing I'd try next time out is leaving just off idle. Sometimes a tighter converter will 60 foot quicker being smacked WOT from a low rpm, like 1500 or less. I know mine in the past have.
One thing that surprises me is that it doesn't want more RPM w/ those heads and fairly stout cam.

I don't think there will be a next time with this vert, but thanks for that info. Gonna get it fixed before I run it again. Winter project.

It ran 11.25 @ 116. It’s not running right though, my new 9.5” converter is way too loose up top. It was slipping 14.5% through the traps.

Ok, yeah. Thinking about sending mine back to Dynamic to get fixed.

Me too. I will probably send mine in during the winter.

Here's another to see what happening.
https://youtu.be/0xa0zAR0bE8

I called Dynamic today. They want me to run it at the track again and try short shifting to see what it wants for proper shift point. That's not gonna happen, no time. I'm really not sure where it runs out of steam at, but on the street it seems like 6000rpm. At the track it seemed like I was waiting a long time for the shift light to come on with it set at 6700rpm. I'll call Lenny tomorrow and get his opinion on it. Dynamic wants $385 to opened it up plus parts.

Silver67 gave the recipe for success with the victor mw wedge heads on a 511, so looks like a smaller intake might help along with a loose vert. Thanks for all the advice guys. Appreciate it.

I'd get the converter loosened up and try again. Save the intake swap for later IMO.

I'd bet as soon as you mention it's a street car, most companies get conservative and build the converter on the tight side. I'd leave the street part out and just tell em your combo. I've run several types of converters in mine on the street and never had any problems...sprag, spragless, mech. diode, real loose, tight, etc.

I agree. I may just check pricing on a new 9 or 9.5" vert as I understand they work better behind a BB.

My converter guy has always spec'd a 9" converter for my combos.

Who's vert are you using?

Try contacting FTI 1-866-726-0273
I had them build a tranny and converter for one of my local customers, he is very happy with both parts

Atlantic Coast Converters in Conway, SC

I will check them out. Anyone every deal with pro Torque torque convertors?

I called ATI today and there opinion was same as Lennys. Leave vert alone. I feel it's too tight, gonna get it reset.

I don't want to (re)read through everything you've posted, but have a few questions:

1. What about your current converter do you think needs to be changed? If it flashes to 5K+ and only has 6% slippage, it sounds better than my Dynamic 9.5" with a 4500-flash and 8% slippage. And the fact that two well-respected converter companies suggested you not mess w/ the converter ought to carry some weight, IMO.

2. Have you considered changing to a clutch-type fan setup since the flex-flan has obviously cost you some significant HP? It won't free up as much as an all-electric fan setup, but it'll get some of what you lost back. The "old reliable" MP viscous fan kit works well.

3. I don't know what else you've done for testing carb jetting, but the AFRs in the high 13s you mentioned on mostly 93E10 fuel sound really lean to me. Have you tried bigger jets to see if the car slows down with an AFR closer to say 13.0? Oh, any chance your fuel system can't supply enough fuel on the top end?

4. What are you running for valve springs, retainers, pushrods, etc., and how do you have the springs set up given the lift you have? I'm wondering if you may be running into valve train instability at higher RPM...

5. Are you having any spinning issues off the line? Is the car launching hard & straight?

6. Has any of your tuning involved changing accel pump squirter sizes and/or pump cams, in addition to changing launch RPMs? Are you fighting any hesitation, etc.?


My $.02 (and sh!t-can it if you want) is that you haven't spent enough time figuring out the current combination of hard parts to know why the car isn't running where "everyone" seems to expect it should.

Part of why I mention this is because your earlier time slips from the new BB vs your old stroker SB showed the BB combination was better everywhere but the last 660'. It had a better 60, it was quicker & faster in the 1/8th, but it gave it all back on the last half of the track. That makes no sense to me, unless there's an issue that's choking it on the big end.

And now I'll go back under my rock and work on my own junk.

Thanks for replying Brad. When you talk to a vert shop and mention street, its the end for getting a good 60footing vert. They get stuck on that street thing. Lenny didn't recommend loosening, but said if I wanted he would loosen it a bit. It is going back to him. You need a 8" vert for what your doing. ATI says N/A engines need 8" convertors. Big power, big convertor. Power adder cars need 9, 9.5 or even 10" for big turbo engines making huge power.
I don't think I have the room for the clutch fan. I have another idea for the electric fan as im looking for higher output fans than the spals 990cfm rating and I have an idea how to incorporate a T stat in the housing.
First time out I was running good AFR's thru the traps with 12.3, 12.5, 12.7 and 13.2 on fastest pass when the temp dropped. I tried HS air bleed change which leaned things too far, .028 to a .030.
Associate valve springs. I'm told by Todd at Compititionwedgeengines they are good quality springs and they produce some of the other big name springs out there. They are set up at 1.930 with 145# on seat and 410# open pressures. I spoke with Dwayne the other day, he did suggest pulling a couple and have them tested to be sure.
No spinning. Car hooks great , goes straight without any hesitation and makes you think your breaking all the records til you get to the ticket booth.
I just richened the rear jets 2 sizes since on straight 93 and no 110 in the mix it runs a tad leaner. I just bought 2 cans of unleaded 98 octane oxygenated to try.
Not sure what that's about either with the loss at the end of the track. When I foot brake I have to hold the brake real hard to keep the car from moving. The vert feels tighter than when it was behind the SB, so its getting a loosening. I may try a different intake and I told Dwayne I wouldn't switch his cam out, I may down the road if nothing else works. This will be my winter project and try again in the spring.

I look forward to seeing how everything progresses for you. Also expecting to have similar W T H? moments with my junk given so much will have changed since the last time it was at the track...

Your combo is a 440, 451? Can't remember. What intake and cam you using with that combo?

RB 452 4.380 x 3.75
Standard port Victors
Trick Flow intake with 4150 carb
266 at .050, .650, 108 solid roller

its probably best you don't tell the converter people about the street part. I believe a good track converter is better on the street than a street converter is on the track. Run a cooler and drive smart and you won't have any issues.

Ok, and that combo makes 700hp? If so, that's a great combo. What do you think of the trick flow intake? Not sure, but i'm thinking maybe these heads don't like big intakes?

Long story short, my engine made 680+ HP w/o a properly sized or tuned carb. Dwayne's old-style Holley "950" HP (1.38+ venturi x 1.75 throttle) w/ a decent tune made as much power as my 1.58 v annular 4150 that was not even close to "right" w/ AFRs in the high 13s. There's likely 10+ HP in getting the bigger carb dialed in.

All I know about the MW Victors is what I've seen on da' net. My OPINION is that most of the ported MW versions I've seen advertised have too big a runner volume for the CFM claimed, which would hurt velocity big time. "Lazy" ports on a compression-limited / converter-limited / whatever-limited street-strip car aren't a great match 'cuz you're not operating in the higher & narrower RPM range where the lack of velocity isn't so much of an issue.

The TF RB intake is very nice as cast. Andy's had good results with the low-deck version, too. I have no idea how you'd get one to work w/ a MW-sized head, though.

I know it's really easy to spend someone else's $$$, but... consider calling Wilson Manifolds and asking them about "down sizing" your Indy MW intake to improve velocity as a Band-Aid to the heads having too-large runner volumes. Just a thought...

683.7hp@6800 with std port heads and an ootb manifold........ and a less than optimal small venturi carb that tends to richen up slightly at the top end.

A more optimized, slightly bigger carb....... along with some oxygenated fuel....... probably coulda squeaked a 7xx out of it.

I can ask Wilson's to see what could be done, but that is my thinking. Lazy ports, so thought I would just bolt that TF up right out of the box. I know someone that bolted up a standard port intake to a 440-1 and it worked pretty good.

curious as to what your goals are? your car seems to be running great and is very streetable as is. what's the payback for a quicker Et vs more $$$ spent?

The goal is low 10's. It does run good on the street and down track , but in my opinion something is not right and I will find and fix it. Expense doesn't really matter at time point. This car has forever been an on going project since I bought it in 96'. During my search for a smaller intake for this combo I came across an Indy old school type tunnel ram for lo decks. Really would like to have that on this combo with two 4's, but that just may make things worse at this point. Well, since the victor mw heads have lazy ports how should i remedy this situation? Intake, cam, more compression?

In that case....... a 572 Hemi should easily solve the problem.

Expense to a point. I'm not a rich guy by any stretch. Hey, wait a minute, A hemi would be real nice at the track and the car shows.

You think you have a headache now just wait until you get a hemi. Lol

That sounds like advise coming from someone that knows. I'll take that as a caution. I actually thought of building up my other lo deck into a 470 Hemi with the conversion heads.

You guys calling the 426 hemi motors don't know why they are called Hemiroid motors should know that any motor modified for racing in 6 months going from wedge heads to hemi heads is not a good deal
I really wish some one would design and make a true hemi motor from scratch that could be used for racing or street use also
I look at the BAE -8 Hemi motors and really hope they will do that some day with a water jacketed motor

I have the up date pipemax 4.5. I'm am able to calculate csa port velocity. Its very low according to this program and suggest a cam in the 261/268*-.650/.600" with 42* of over lap. Sounds aweful small, but who knows.
Gonna call hughes tomorrow and get there opinion.

Proof of concept on changing cams? Throw this one in there: http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...mxhdCBUYXBwZXQsIFNvbGlk&partid=30282

It'll help... or it won't.

Personally...... I’d keep the converter “as is” and buy another. You’re already pleased with its street performance and for being tight the 60 might not be off too far. Once you pay for shipping + adjust if you want to back it’ll cost you twice. Too bad you’re not in my neighborhood. I had my 727 dialed in pretty good, but switched to 904 last year. I have 2 727 8” Ultimate’s sitting here one 5800, the other 6200 behind my W8 that’d we could throw in

I'll run it thru the program just for sh!ts. A guy over on another forum is running 10 O's with these heads. A 505 13:1 super vic, solid roller 310/318 274/282 421/421 on a 110 with valve events Intake 27,67 Exhaust 71,31. Figures its making 700+. Not sure how hard on parts that cam would be. So far, Dwayne's cam has made best power on my programs than any thing I have tried. Of the intakes he has tried, the super vic is the fastest on his combo and he had an Indy as well.

The reset costs $125 and some busted knuckles. So its gonna be a slow winter project. I would really like to try that 8" 5800.

What's typical for DA, temp, barometric pressure, humidity, etc. for the conditions you've tested in? I don't know how comparable they are to what I've run in the past, or whether it makes my results too much apples-to-oranges.

I don't use a weather station, so not sure. Fisrt time out humidity was 45% and last pass temp was 58-60* and altitude there was 800ft I believe. I had real good air that time out. Last time out humidity was 65% air temp was low 70's and alti at milan is closer to 500ft. Best I can do.

I spoke with hughes engines and edelbrock today. Hughes thinks I need more compression with my combo. Suggest shaving the heads a bit and possible a new cam to get cranking compression to near 200 psi. Edelbrock says the deck of these heads are .650" thick. Can take plenty off and still be safe. Gonna get the vert taken care of first and check spring pressures.

Push the “easy button”..... you know, the one with the bottle in the trunk!

A true 700 hp should put a modestly light A body into mid, high nines, my old 440 was around 600 and ran 10.1 at 132 with RPM's.
Mick

That's a good chassis in that combo. I don't think my chassis is good enough for 9.50's, but I thought 10 O's were possible if I had the power behind it.

Funny you say that, because when I built this engine I gaped the rings for spray just incase. Don't think I would ever use it thou. Its not the way I roll. To me its cheating. I'm N/A all the way. Ya know, it just makes for a more interesting hobby.