Moparts

Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve?

Posted By: squirrel

Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 03:00 PM

Hi, just curious when you use a bronze gear on a billet roller cam, and a bronze sleeve to support the gear, what is supposed to keep them from wearing against each other?
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 03:36 PM

If 'sleeve' is referring to the intermediate shaft bushing.....

In my humble opinion, the bottom of the gear and top of the bushing wear together poorly.

That's not to say it doesn't work LOL. No, It works just great. Change the oil often, you won't have any problems.

I have heard of the parts being machined to accept a bearing (torrington washer) to stop the wear.

Although I already pressed on a bronze gear for my latest build, I'm thinking about pressing it right back off again
and trying Melonized.............
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by squirrel
Hi, just curious when you use a bronze gear on a billet roller cam, and a bronze sleeve to support the gear, what is supposed to keep them from wearing against each other?

Oil up
I ran one(Milidon gear on a Pioneer bushing) on my old pump gas car with no wear problems for over 3000 miles and hundreds of 1/4 and 1/8 mile races shruggy
I recently had a Mopar brand oil pump drive with bronze gear wobble horribly in the block, It was bad enough to make the distributor move around when running or on the starter shock scope Bad parts are out there so make sure yours is not one of them scope
Posted By: squirrel

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 04:10 PM

that's the problem, I have been changing the oil often, and the gold colored sparkly things are disheartening. At least I think I know where it's coming from.
Posted By: rickseeman

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 04:54 PM

They make those plastic drive gears but I'm not ready for that.
Posted By: squirrel

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 05:20 PM

I haven't seen them for sale, but I haven't looked everywhere yet. I know there are plastic gears for Chevys (they were OEM on some engines). I'm working on a 426 Hemi.

I was pondering adding a thin hard steel shim between the two soft parts, so they won't want to gall.
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 06:43 PM

Shim. There used to be a shim kit sold that was used to adjust clearance/end play on the shaft to reduce erratic timing. Although I never saw wear there being an issue on anything I had. Maybe need to check and make sure that the distributor shaft is not loading the gear against the bushing for some odd reason.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 06:56 PM

I have used a torrington bear washer between the gear and bushing. They are .030 thick and I machine the bottom of the gear that amount.

You are absolutely correct about the wear ... they are "similar" metals so due to the laws of physics or metallurgy or whatever, wear is guaranteed. Not many folks realize this and I've seen loads of used bronze gears for sale at swap meets that would still be in the engines if they'd only done this simple mod.
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by squirrel
that's the problem, I have been changing the oil often, and the gold colored sparkly things are disheartening. At least I think I know where it's coming from.



Understood and yes, I agree it is easily observed. If you take a minute and pull the intermediate shaft out
and have a look at the bottom You'll probably also notice the parts marking each other up.

This seems to do no harm, but it is far from optimum.

There are so many other things to be concerned with that this often goes overlooked even though many of us are aware.
Posted By: squirrel

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 08:06 PM

I guess the wear on the gear teeth just seems to be more important! Also the shaft wears, from the debris, I imagine.

At least the rest of the valvetrain still looks nice after 1000 miles.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 08:09 PM

Does your bushing have oil grooves on the top flange?

So do....... some don’t.
Posted By: justinp61

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by squirrel
I haven't seen them for sale, but I haven't looked everywhere yet. I know there are plastic gears for Chevys (they were OEM on some engines). I'm working on a 426 Hemi.

I was pondering adding a thin hard steel shim between the two soft parts, so they won't want to gall.



I used a valve spring shim for a motorcycle on my small block build and in two years have never had any shiny brass in my oil or filter. IIRC it was .014' and I didn't cut anything.
Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 08:26 PM

I haven't seen issue with the bushing to gear wear on my small block. I was surprised on my last inspection to discover that the bronze bushing in the block was totally smoked. I replaced it and added a small hole to the galley plug to give the area a direct shot of oil. I have no idea if this will help or if you can do this on a big block/Hemi.
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 08:33 PM

I like the idea of the torrington washer between the two parts. A very simple solution to an ongoing annoyance. Thanks
Posted By: squirrel

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/09/19 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by fast68plymouth
Does your bushing have oil grooves on the top flange?

So do....... some don’t.


Yes, it does.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/12/19 05:40 AM

I have noticed shiny particles in the oil drained from my vacuum pump puke tank every time I drain it, twice a day at the races on my new motor so I decided to look at the gear, it was a new Mopar brand and it is making metal since start up evidently rant
This motor has a set of Jesel paired shaft rocker arm set up on the 440-1 heads so I don't want it failing, I reused the one out of the old motor that has 5 + years of racing on it with no issues or evidence of wear on it yet luck
I'll watch it carefully now and hope it doesn't start wearing against this camshaft luck
Posted By: fuseable

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/12/19 07:34 PM

I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run.

Attached picture DSCN0112.JPG
Posted By: squirrel

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/15/19 04:37 AM

thanks, that looks like a great solution for that issue.

Of course, it doesn't solve the issue of the gear wearing against the camshaft. I might give the coated steel gear a try, and keep an eye on it.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/15/19 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by fuseable
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run.


Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!!
Posted By: BradH

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/16/19 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by fuseable
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run.


Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!!

Bet it would cost me more than $10 to have someone machine my gear to use the $.25 washer, since I don't have the equipment to do it myself.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/16/19 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by fuseable
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run.


Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!!

Bet it would cost me more than $10 to have someone machine my gear to use the $.25 washer, since I don't have the equipment to do it myself.


Maybe you need to make some friends !!! smile
Posted By: BradH

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/16/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by fuseable
I am using a .005 stainless shim between the gear and bushing. I started thinking about a shim and posted here , another member replied and has been doing this for some time and has not had any issues using one. I cannot remember the other member. I put one in in Feb. I haven't had the gear out to check it yet. My last Milodon bronze gear (prior to .005 shim) and the bushing where eating each other up. A place called the Shim Shack made up the shims for me, cost was not to bad, as I remember I had 6 run.


Well, I submitted a request for a quote and they came back at $10. each.. Not money well spent in my opinion when a 25 cent Torrington washer will do !!!

Bet it would cost me more than $10 to have someone machine my gear to use the $.25 washer, since I don't have the equipment to do it myself.


Maybe you need to make some friends !!! smile

I hear ya'. I lost my access to a Smithy when I moved my stuff out of a shared shop when my wife & I bought our house 20 years ago. Never thought I'd need to use it often enough to justify buying one for myself, and don't think that's really changed. It's only times like this where it would be handy to have it right there to knock out simple mods.
Posted By: second 70

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/17/19 04:26 PM

I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too.

Attached picture FEC56E11-DCB0-4EA0-BE07-BF94B2D67DF4.jpeg
Posted By: BANDIT

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/17/19 04:41 PM

Where do you get the 25 cent Torrington washer from? Jim
Posted By: 6PakBee

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/17/19 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by BANDIT
Where do you get the 25 cent Torrington washer from? Jim


Jim, I was wondering that also. I am also amazed that a Torrington roller thrust washer wouldn't brinnel a soft mating surface like brass. shruggy
Posted By: squirrel

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/17/19 07:15 PM

I think he meant the Torrington washer (the smooth race), not the Torrington thrust bearing (the thing with rollers). The washer is kind of thick for this application, facing the thrust surface of the gear in a lathe would be a good idea if you go that route?
Posted By: BANDIT

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/18/19 03:28 PM

I have a Smithy, so the machining isn’t a problem, was just wondering where to get washer. McMaster-Carr I guess is good as place as any to start. My Indy block actually had too much distance between bushing face and distributor mount surface, I took a little off of the bottom of the distributor to keep gear from moving so much. Jim
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/18/19 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by squirrel
I think he meant the Torrington washer (the smooth race), not the Torrington thrust bearing (the thing with rollers). The washer is kind of thick for this application, facing the thrust surface of the gear in a lathe would be a good idea if you go that route?


Exactly. The washer is .030 thick and smooth enough to run a bearing on so is sure as hell won't harm either the gear or the bushing. I buy them at local bearing supply shops - an "off the shelf" item.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/18/19 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by second 70
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too.


The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!!
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/18/19 09:08 PM

Do you have a brand and part number for those good washers? help
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/18/19 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by second 70
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too.


The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!!
iagree That gear is worn out scope
Posted By: second 70

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/19/19 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by second 70
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too.


The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!!
iagree That gear is worn out scope


I totally agree.This was my first time using one and was surprised how fast it wore out. It only had 3,000 street miles on it. I added a collar now and check it much more often.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/19/19 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by second 70
Originally Posted by Cab_Burge
Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by second 70
I checked this one that I changed out a few years ago and it has wear with a lip on bottom of gear but also the shaft is worn too.


The lip and shaft are the least of your worries ... look at the wear on the gear !!!!
iagree That gear is worn out scope


I totally agree.This was my first time using one and was surprised how fast it wore out. It only had 3,000 street miles on it. I added a collar now and check it much more often.

Has restricting the gear movement w/ the collar showed reduction in wear?
Posted By: second 70

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/19/19 04:33 PM

Sorry Brad I haven't put enough miles on it yet to find out.
Mike
Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/20/19 01:21 PM

I replaced the gear and bushing last week.They were in there for 7 years,,over 50k miles and were plain wore out! Todd has them in stock. No spacers or bearings and the bushing has the oil grooves. up
Posted By: second 70

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/24/19 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by hemi-itis
I replaced the gear and bushing last week.They were in there for 7 years,,over 50k miles and were plain wore out! Todd has them in stock. No spacers or bearings and the bushing has the oil grooves. up


Al can the new bushing be installed with engine in car and cam still installed?
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/25/19 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by second 70
Originally Posted by hemi-itis
I replaced the gear and bushing last week.They were in there for 7 years,,over 50k miles and were plain wore out! Todd has them in stock. No spacers or bearings and the bushing has the oil grooves. up


Al can the new bushing be installed with engine in car and cam still installed?


Absolutely.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Bronze drive gear and bronze sleeve? - 07/25/19 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Stanton
Originally Posted by second 70
Originally Posted by hemi-itis
I replaced the gear and bushing last week.They were in there for 7 years,,over 50k miles and were plain wore out! Todd has them in stock. No spacers or bearings and the bushing has the oil grooves. up


Al can the new bushing be installed with engine in car and cam still installed?


Absolutely.

There should be a thread from the last 4 to 6 months that talked about what tools can be used to remove & install the tower bushing.
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