Dual Sniper setup is here

I need to do a little fab work before we can get this on a running engine but all the major bits are here. Should be interesting to see how it works. This is the first one I've seen.

Should work good, FAST and FI Tech have had 2x4 setups out for awhile.

Do the throttle bodies match or is one of them a slave? Curious if they have two IAC motors, TPS, etc. I run two of the holley 1000CFM throttle bodies on my tunnel ram and I like having the redundant sensors if needed.

I wonder how that would work on a Hemi cross ram?

and i am wondering about all the responses so far, for a 446 with an original max wedge intake.
andy, if anyone can give honest results, you're the man !
looking forward to your outcome[s] !

The front one is a slave on this setup. No IAC and no TPS. Also they removed the internal regulators so you have to run an external regulator. That isn't really a bad idea at this power level anyway. This isn't a Super Sniper so no fuel pressure or oil pressure sensor hookup which is a bit of a bummer.

as the setup contains a slave, my plan was to purchase the 2x4 setup of "???" manufacturer, then get the car sorted out with the main TB, then, switch over to the max wedge intake.
does that make any sense, and can that even be possible ?

Very cool! I'm excited to see the results!

Well now, that's getting pretty fancy

Does to me, Is a O2 sensor part of this package, that would seem to be the fly in the ointment in the an independent TR set-up, as it would be reading cylinders its not feeding, correct?

THe 02 would read one bank or the other, so it would get data from both throttle bodies. I am sure the ECU controls them the same, no adjustment between the two. They share a common plenum anyways.

I am waiting on the 4500 sniper dual setup.

Me too, curious how well it would work on a roots supercharger. I think they'd be awesome on a na tunnel ram, but might have to lie to them about AF on a blower given the distribution issues with roots.

Hi Andy I would like to ask you a question fellow members I would like your opinion and input as well I have built a 512 to into my 63 Savoy with a Indy 440-25 cross ram I went this route because of the NSS rules of intake and carburetor requirements in some of the different associations it’s been well documented here and other cites of potential backfire and explosions of the intake and other potential issues this setup may have. My goals at the time I started has changed and I am more interested in running it at Atco’s 10.00 index and driving it on the street I see a potential benefit in running a dual sniper setup over my current dual 750 eddy carbs any input would be appreciated and welcomed

Sure, if I had that Indy cross ram on an engine I'd put dual Snipers on it. I'd also add the Holley Hyperspark distributor so I had full computer control over both fuel and ignition timing. That is the only way I'd try to run that intake on the street. I don't know how well it will work but I'd think that dual Snipers would give you a fighting chance.

I'm not sure what makes those intakes backfire but it could be fuel puddling and/or vacuum leaks. Does your cross ram have a gasket between the top and bottom half? I had one of those intakes years ago and Indy didn't supply a gasket. So the intake wasn't sealed up in the middle. Not sure why Indy didn't make a gasket for it but perhaps they make one now? The Sniper setup might solve the fuel puddling since you don't have accelerator pumps to squirt fuel in. The amount of cranking fuel can be adjusted and the fuel prime can be turned down or turned off. With the Hyperspark ignition setup you can adjust the ignition timing while cranking which might also help.

that sounds like good advice for me as well, when changing over to my original max wedge intake. in my distant memory, i believe i have heard a story or two about a backfire problem, but i don't remember what the outcome was.

What's this going on? I'm very interested to see how this works out. I'm in the early stages of building a 493 (440) and I just picked up an M1 tunnel ram that I plan on using along with dual snipers and trick flow heads.

It is going on a 505 with Trick Flow heads. The engine made over 700 hp with a single Sniper but was running out of air and fuel so we're interested in finding out what happens with the dual Snipers on there. I have a Weiand tunnel ram for the engine which will be a bit of a choke point since the engine has the 270 heads on it. I was hoping to round up a Indy tunnel ram with the MW ports but no luck yet.

As is usual for these types of projects we hit some snags along the way. We have the engine back on the dyno and ready to make some pulls with the dual Sniper setup so we'll see how it goes. So far we've baselined the engine with both a big QuickFuel carb and a single Sniper setup. The carb + MSD pro billet distributor made 715 hp while the Super Sniper 650 with matching Hyperspark distributor made a best of 710 hp. The Super Sniper is rated at 650 hp and it was really pushed to the limit on this engine with injector duty cycle well past 90%. Basically the injectors are on all the time when the engine is past 6000 rpm.

The Sniper is rated at 800 cfm while the QuickFuel carb is rated at 1050 cfm. The engine was using 920 cfm during the pulls according to the mass air flow setup so I'm a little surprised that the power difference was so small. I'm assuming that the dual Sniper setup will solve the airflow and fuel flow issues but we do have a bit of a curve ball hidden in the test since we're using a standard port Weiand intake on Max Wedge heads. It is a long story but basically I wasn't able to source a Indy tunnel ram with in-line 4150 carb pads. I know they exist but none of my usual contacts were able to come up with one so we modified a Weiand standard port tunnel ram to work.

Be interesting to see how it pans out, but I’d expect that motor to peak pretty early with the Weiand TR on it.
They always have on all the stock stroke stuff I’ve run them on.

Couldn’t just get the Indy TR with a blank top?

I know they don’t get much luv, but the Mod Man intake is available with MW ports and the in line 4150 top.

Just a matter of economics. It isn't my engine and the owner isn't in position to buy a bunch of intakes just for testing. He doesn't want to run a Mod Man on his car so no point in buying one. I've run the Weiand TR before and it does peak pretty early with the long runners but I had one available so we used it. I tried to buy a Indy TR but they never returned my calls so eventually I gave up on that. The Indy TR would probably be the best intake for this engine but I that shipped has sailed as far as the next round of testing is concerned.

OMG I am shocked!

My first rule of dealing with Indy is don't deal with Indy, go through a good dealer.

What intake was used for the single 4bbl testing?

Some of what I’ve seen written by more than one of the true gurus of manifold porting is that they don’t even flow them anymore. They’re more concerned with the csa, taper, length, etc.

That being said, when I was playing around flowing manifolds on a head, and seeing how much they would knock the flow down.......on a std port SR head flowing about 340cfm, a Weiand TR with some minor matching and plenum clean up cost about 30cfm on that SR head.

With the combo of the std port manifold on the MW size TF270 head you not only get the restriction of the small intake runner of the manifold, but the big change in csa/poor transition as the air enters the head.

I’m definitely curious to see how it works out.
Sometimes things that seem like they’d be a big problem in terms of power, aren’t.
And sometimes things that seem trivial make a pretty big difference.

On something in the 850hp range, going from an Indy 440-2 with a 4150/4500 adapter and an 1150 carb to the Indy TR with 2x1050’s is worth about 35hp.

On a 650hp 451, going from a TG4500 with an 1150 on it to the Weiand TR with 2x650 Demons was worth about 30hp.

We used a ported Indy 440-2 intake for the single 4bbl testing. The big QF carb made a little more power than the Sniper up top but the Sniper made more torque down low. Personally I'd run the Sniper on an engine like that even though it gives up 10 hp at WOT since it works better in the range that the engine will be driven.

Any updates?

Had an issue with one of the Snipers so we're waiting for a replacement. Should be back on the dyno in a couple of weeks.

Updates?

Never did get the dual Sniper setup to run. Tried them on a different engine and still had problems. Switched back and forth between carbs and the dual Snipers and the carbs worked but the dual Sniper setup didn't. Came to the preliminary conclusion that the dual Sniper setup is very sensitive to the design of the intake manifold plenum. Currently we're waiting for a new intake manifold and then we'll run another dyno test.

Is that motor cammed so that if it had a single plane single 4150 manifold on it, you’d expect a single Sniper unit to work without any unusual tuning requirements?

It looks like it morphed into a Phord too.

That is correct and I've never had any unusual tuning problems with a single Sniper. The dual Sniper setup that I have doesn't seem to work regardless of what we do. It has been back to Holley for a checkup and we've done everything we know to do. Just waiting to see if a different intake manifold fixes the issues.

Yep. I ran the dual Sniper setup on a 505 Mopar with a tunnel ram and when that didn't work I tried it on a Boss 302 engine with a tunnel ram. We had a blown BB Chevy in the dyno cell a while back and I would've liked to have run the dual Sniper on it. I bet it would've worked just fine. The big eggbeater blower would've solved all of the fuel distribution issues. But it didn't work out to run it on that engine so I'm still waiting for the right opportunity.

I would sure like to see how it will run on a 440-25 Indy crossram

Aspiring to be a professional archer or hunting enthusiast?

It might work okay on the Indy box ram. Be worth a try. If I was racing with an Indy box ram I'd much rather have dual Snipers and a Hyperspark distributor than dual carbs. Not sure if throttle body EFI is legal in the NSS class or not but if it was I'd use it. I think there is a huge tuning advantage with EFI plus you get data logging for free.