Suggestions on what to do with my motor? - update

So the oil in my race car is showing babbitt. Time for a rebuild and upgrade. This combo has been together for 15 years. Background:

67 Coronet 3450 lbs with driver. Best run is 9.61 @ 139.2 mph

When dynoed, motor made 786 hp and 706 torque. I want to go faster, and figure I need to be around 840 hp for where I want to be.

Motor is a 2001 mega block. 528 cubic inch. 4.15 stroke and 4.5 inch bore. 14:1 compression. Hooker 5209 2” headers. Indy SR heads that were flowed and reported to be:

Head Flow @ 28inches H2O
Opening Intake Exhaust
.200 158.7 120.1
.300 220.8 170.5
.400 271.3 203.2
.500 301.4 225.7
.600 326.0 247.6
.700 345.4 262.3
.800 354.9 269.0

Cam:
Solid Roller
Lift Intake/Exhaust .706/.676
Duration @ .020 Intake/Exhaust 318/328 (285/290 @ 0.050)
Valve Timing @ 0.050
Intake 36 BTDC 68 ABDC
Exhaust 79 BBDC 31 ATDC
106 deg centerline
Lobe Separation Angle 110 degrees
cam installed @ 106 degrees (straight up)

So what do I do with the motor? I don’t want to change heads right now. Will the heads support 840 hp? I will install a new rotating assembly. Should I go with a 4.25, 4.375 or 4.5 inch stroke (541, 557 or 573 cubic inch)? I seriously doubt the SR heads will support 573 cubic inches, but what if I change heads later?

Thoughts?

For the power you want, and bigger cubes that you might build, I think that the heads and possibly the headers are going to be your choke point. You didn't mention what you are using for an intake system.

I’d just build it as a 572, knowing the heads are holding it back and that you’ll likely need something bigger to get into that 850hp zone.

I did one a few years ago....... it was about 870hp with a 440-2/w-4500 adapter , 1150 carb, 14:1, cnc345 Heads, 1.7 rockers, .782 lift cam.

Over 900hp with a TR.

The intake is an Indy with a 1150 cfm Dominator. I don't know anything about the intake other than its a single Dominator 4 barrel Indy.

How difficult is it to put a 4.5 inch stroke crank in a mega block? Fairly straightforward or is difficult clearance required?

Bigger primaries

It depends on the rod journal size and type of rods used
Stock Mopar rod journals sizes with aluminum rods require grinding, Honda 1.88 rod size with steel rods don't

If you use steel rods and a crank with 2.200 rod journals, it won’t require too much clearancing.

That cam sounds fine for the future if you use 1.60 or more rocker ratio when you upgrade the heads.
0.706 on 1.5 rockers would be 0.777" gross lift with 1.65 rockers and around 0.750" after subtracting lash.
It is similar to the cam I ran in my 540 CID with Indy 440-1 CNC-345 and T&D 1.65 rockers. That combo was a copy of a 860 hp setup.
Indy site says their CNC porting flows 380 cfm. Guy I copied said It made power to 7400 rpm but he shifted it at 7200. Mine was still pulling strong when I shifted at 7300.
So 528-540 CID is enough to meet your power goal (with better heads, IMO)

But if you build 572, you might go to Indy CNC 572-13 heads, or even B1 heads.

What was the RPM for peak HP of your current setup?
As Fast68 said, your SR heads will lower the peak HP and RPM if you build 572 CID.

I've been told by several very good heads up racers that a motor with a large bore and short stroke (less than 4.250) will make more power and accelerate faster than the same size C.I. motor with a smaller bore and a longer stroke
My next all out motor will have a set of B1-MC heads on a Koleno high nickel 4.500 bore size block to start with and a 4.375 stroke fully counter weighted old Sonny Bryant top fuel crank due to the price and availability of them in SO CA back when I started this project That crank was originally a 4.250 stroke crank with standard Mopar rod journals sizes that I had offset ground down to BB Chevy 2.200 size and offset ground to 4.375 stroke. I'm going to use a set of forged steel 7.100 long Molnar H beam steel rods with 2.200 big ends and .990 small ends
I would love to make a similar motor with 4.500 or bigger bore size with a 4.0 stroke crankshaft with the Honda rod journal sizes(1.880?) with a long rod
Do you really want to make a motor that will need to be revved between 6000 to 9000 RPM to make power
I normally don't but this next B1-MC motor will probably be one like that
High RPM, high dollar and high maintenance
I dyno tested a 526 C.I. 440 bracket motor (4.380 bore with a 4.375 stroke crankshaft) that had a set of both Indy SR and 440-1 heads on it , both sets where M.W. intake sizes and both had 2.250 intake sizes, I used the same cam, intake, carb and compression ratio for both tests.
The SR heads flowed 350 CFM at .700 lift and the CNC ported 440-1 heads flowed 370 CFM at .700 on the same flow bench by the same operator, the SR made 775 HP at around 7000 RPM and the better 440-1 heads made right at 845 HP at a little higher RPM(maybe 7200 to 7400 RPM. I sold that motor and gave all the dyno sheets and flow numbers to the new owner or I could give you more accurate info, sorry

My oddball combo. 572, 15-1 (Diamond flat top), 7.100 Molnar rods and crank, Comp RX1718 int lobe/XCX1862 exh lobe (285/292) .471" lobe lift 112 lca in at 108, .800" at the valve w/o lash using a 1.7 T&D rocker, Jessel belt box stock Indy 440-25 cross ram, 2 eddy 750's, hand ported -1 w/2.25 int, 2 1/8" Hooker super comps, GZ vacuum pump. It's been 9.00@150/3350lbs. Shift at 7000. Cam is easy on valve train parts
Doug

A friend had a 572 with the small port b1ba(?) Heads, shifted at 6200, should be geared to go 6400 in the traps. I bet your SR heads on a 572 would do the same. A lot depends on how much$$ you are willing to throw at this motor to go fast. I would start with the biggest short block you can build, up to 572. Next, how much do you want to throw at the topend? If you want serious power, a jump to B1Mc or predator heads would be my choice, with B1mc's being less$ than predators , but still capable of 1050 hp.
There is only about a 50 hp difference between SRs fully ported and 440-1s fully ported, and the best valvetrain for -1s fairly costly, but you can use the same pistons as your SRs. So the crux of the matter is for serious hp increases lots more parts need to be changed. My choice would be a 572 with b1mc heads, the cam you have, new headers.

So peak hp was at 6600 rpm. It was very flat from 6300 to 6600, but they did not run the tests past 6600 rpm. Peak torque was at 5500 rpm.

I will be digesting all the info. Will drop the car off to pull the motor at the end of summer or early fall so I have some time to think about it. I will be at Brodix in a few weeks, so I will have a conversation with them about the B1 heads.

Can I buy bigger off the shelf headers that will fit B1 heads in a stockish 67 B body or are we talking a custom built set?

I think you can make 840 hp with SR head, especially since you're okay with running high compression and a big roller. If it was me I'd put a high quality 4.25 crank in there with 7.10 rods (high quality rods). Figure out the head situation next and then order pistons to get you in the 15:1 range. Maybe figure which gas you're willing to run first. I'd run X16 from VP if available in your area. Send the heads to Dwayne and have him go over them with a goal of 850 hp. Figure out a cam and valvetrain that supports 850 hp. Figure out how you're going to get the compression. If you can do it with a flat top piston or a very small dome then that is the way I'd go. You can get good rings in the 4.500 bore size so I'd go with a metric ring pack and gas ported pistons. Pay the extra money for the fully CNC machining on the pistons to get the weight down. Diamond can do this stuff for you. You'll need a good oil pan to make 850 hp, most likely also need a vacuum pump. The intake needs to be sent out for porting. I'd send it to Wilson but it will cost you at least $1000 for a full competition port job. No idea on your carb, You might need to buy a different carb to hit 850 hp. Maybe send your existing carb to Mark W. and see what he says. He'll most likely want to start fresh with a billet main body and build a 1250+ monster. Are you willing to run a Jesel belt drive? I'd highly recommend it if you don't already have one. A Jesel belt drive distributor is also a good idea at that power level. Everything you can do to get rid of the harmonics on the camshaft will help.

Put new bearings in it and let's go racing

Not ready to take it apart yet. Let's go racing before I tear it apart!

So it is looking like I have a plan. I was going back and forth if I should buy a Bulldog block (sell my existing motor assembled) or reuse my Megablock and now that I sold my heads and intake, I will be reusing my megablock. It only has around 140 runs on it.

Tony Bischoff (BES) will build the motor. It will be a B1 MC head, 572 CI with 15:1 compression with a new cam. Will be targeting 950 hp. If my et calculator is correct, should get me in the 9.0's in my heavy aerodynamic brick..............

I’m sure he’ll build you a nice piece!!

Sounds like a great plan 👍

MY 530 made 915 @ BES, and its a dedicated nitrous motor. IM SURE yours will make over 1000, not 950

So you DO know Tony!

You picked a great builder. With a 572 and a GOOD MC head 1000 should be a no brainer. 1050 is easily attainable with easy on valvetrain parts IMO. I am quite sure he will meet your expectations.

Mark, I like your plan. B1MC and 572 go nicely together.
The 950 hp target is conservative, and you might make more.
From what I have seen, at this level two similar motors might make different power, 950 for one, and 1030 on another.
The little things ($$$) matter at that level, IMO.

And I am spoiled that he is 45 minutes from me..............

Yes I know him...LOL and they think im crazy because I sleep in my truck in the parking lot after driving there..LOL
My motor is 530" has a cam with 119lsa, only has a 1050 carb on it and its 13.7 comp. It was Dyno'd with C23. So think about it, your build will be 42 more cubes,the correct fuel for NA, the correct NA carb, a "NA" cam....1,000+ is a no brainer. Plus my engine stops making power at 7300 because of headers and intake design. Dont forget B1 are 30+ year old technology and having an intake that old don't help. At this time I just cant afford the money to cut the intake up and doctor it up to look like its cast again...that's future plans.
Good luck on your build. its a great place to deal with, the only bad thing you can say about them is they take long. But then again its worth the wait ! ! !
IF you want more info on my build id be happy to share in PM.

Well making progress. Dropped the engine block off yesterday.

The first ports are ported and they will be digitized for CNC porting of the rest of the ports. No pics of the new ports. The chambers are machined but will be redone as not all cleaned up. At 1 inch the intake flowed 470 cfm - of course that number is meaningless as we don't care about 1 inch lift. Intake is 2.400 inch.

Not real happy with the intake machining. Brodix told me that Indy has their fingers in the intake machining.......... But the rest of the stuff looks good! Very surprised how heavy the rockers are.

I like the route you chose. I am betting on a 8.90 to 8.80 at 150 mph with the chassis and converter working well!

We are shooting for 8.80's. Tony Bischoff crossed out 1000 hp and penciled in 1100 hp. LOL!

The first ports are ported and they will be digitized for CNC porting of the rest of the ports.

I don't understand that part. How many different port shapes are there?

I may be wrong but I think he is saying they ported one port and got it to where they were happy and now they are going cnc the rest of the ports after they digitize it.

Looking forward to a track report. If 1100 hp is made it ought to be faster than 8.80!

Correct - They hand ported an intake and an exhaust port and those ports will be digitized to do the rest of the ports.

A true 1000 hp should get me in the high 8.80's per my calculator in good weather. A little north of 1000 hp would suite me just fine. I do not believe that we will get to 1100 hp but who knows with Tony.

I drop my block and rotating assembly to them on Wednesday

Although a Chevy, I have a customer who went 8.84 at 150+ a few weeks ago w/his 572 Chevelle at 3430 lbs on stock suspension and radials and pump gas w/a Thumper 1250, he went 8.80's-90's w/an 1150 I did.......Pettis combo.....

im sure it will go over 1000 !
oh god that intake...lol
heavy as hell and not that good lol

Well motor is in assembly. Won't be long now.............

Im waiting for the dyno session !

Well Id say 1000 is a no brainer. You are certainly in good hands with BES, one of the best. Flow numbers are typical for a really good MC head at 1"

Total output will depend highly on camshaft...but 1050 is very doable with a decent cam (not full kill). Love love the MC heads!!

Good to hear the engine is being assembled. What are the cam specs?
Do you have head flow numbers at other lifts (0.700", 0.800")?
I look forward to the dyno numbers.

Ready for the dyno!

Good luck!

I am looking forward to the dyno results. Not too many 1000+ hp engines posted here.
Can you summarize the final build numbers?
15.x CR, cam specs, head flow numbers, carb, header size

I will when after the dyno run.

Hmm, that's not your run of the mill 500 horse 440. I also noticed you don't have a PH8A Fram oil filter on it.
Good luck with it, hope it's everything you wanted from it.

Oh wait, are you going to put a Street Demon on it?

Did i miss when the dyno session is? Looking forward to this! It is what i should have done many years ago!!

Dyno session not scheduled yet.

June 17 is dyno day..............

Any chassis or driveline upgrades to match the new power level?

Cant wait to hear the results. The little B1 deal was just dynode on this past Monday

why aren't you sharing those results Al

Not much. Biggest worry is the 727 output shaft. Working with Rick Allison on a solution but that is still open.

John Holt redid my fuel tank and added the parachute. They also redid my windshield as it was caving in at 140 mph. The window was in original rubber and the Lexan was cut a tad too small. Now its screwed in.

Well its dyno day! Anyone wanna play a guessing game on HP? I know I did not give the required info.......... I say it best make 1050 and hope at least 1080 hp.

My old MC engine made 1088 and was only 525, so lets start there. Good luck and I am sure you will be happy with what Tony and BES give you.

NICE program and updates!!! 1050 non-oxygenated fuel is my guess

MY 530" made 915, with C23 and has a nitrous friendly 1050 carb and nitrous no NA friendly cam LOL , so I don't see how 1000+ is out of the question. Should go over 1000. I will guess 1100

I don't know much about those B1 MC motors, and without the cam duration guessing peak horsepower is tough.
My guess 1065 hp at 6800 rpm More cam, more rpm, more peak horsepower. Good Luck.

We are running c14 fuel. My headers did not fit so these are a bit bigger than mine.

We will see where it ends up so far 1040 hp at 7100 rpm 830 torque. It likes timing.

If so far peak hp was 7100 rpm, you likely have more cam duration than I was thinking from your older posts....
Look forward to the final tune.

So it met my minimum expectations for power. It likes timing! Gained 60 hp going from 28 to 30 degrees. Kept getting good gains including at 36 degrees - that surprised me. Since we were running C14 fuel, Tony did not want to go higher. Probably would have gained more. My headers would not work (2 1/8 - 2 1/4 step) and the shop headers were larger diameter than mine.

Have 2 problems. Pulling a lot of oil through the vacuum pump. We now think the push rod oiling is spraying oil between the baffle and suction hole. They will make a new baffle tomorrow. The second problem is that at least one row of head studs are too short. 2 to 3 threads are not engaged in the nut. These were pretty expensive Koffel ARP studs specific for the application so that is quite disappointing.

I was not shooting for maximum horsepower. I wanted a balance for reliability and I think we hit the goal. The cam is not super crazy. .847/.825 lift 285/296 duration @ 0.050" 112 lobe separation. Compression is 15.22:1. Heads flowed 460 on the intake @ .850 and exhaust was 318.

Final numbers were 1058 hp @ 7200 rpm and 838 torque @ 6200 rpm. Horsepower falls off pretty quick after 7200 rpm.

Big congrats. Those step headers might well outshine the dyno pipes. You will have one BAD B BODY!!!!

SOunds great, Congrats on going over 1000

The studs you talk about....LOL when I saw that on mine, I called ARP they told me they were the correct length. I told them ...NO they are too short. I just ordered the correct length individually. YOu wonder how they sell a "set:" that has 10? that are a lil too short.

The Intake we are all using flat out sucks....whats it going to take for BRODIX to make an intake that works?? These heads are 30+ year old tech, they were great when people were building 470"? motors with stock blocks. Come on now, we need an update LOL

who made the cam?

What was the length supplied, and what length was needed?
Pic for example:

Nice power numbers!!

Looking at the sheet...... it appears there were some issues with the fuel flow measurements.
Neither the fuel flow or bsfc numbers make any sense.

I have not had time to digest that yet - have barely looked at the dyno sheet and I only have 2 runs printed thus far. They are making headway on the oil getting sucked in by the vacuum pump and they will replace the studs. I do not know the length of the studs - but this is a Koffel stud kit and it should be correct!

The cam is a special grind by comp cams.

I am real pleased that here were zero oil leaks. And I love my valve covers! How many B1 motors do you see with M/T cast valve covers?

The stud iusse is nothing new, it will depend on what block is being used to get full engagement there. Seems the uniformity of that depth varies, had the same problem with my Predator too.

There is a lot of oil in the top of a B1. I have always run a very small restrictor. Also you will likely find the baffle does not accomplish what you want, but hopefully it does. On the dragster we went to the baffled Moroso oil cap after trying a few other things like baffles etc on the cast covers. On sheet melat we move the pickup point and use a star baffle with some wadded wire.

FWIW my 525 liked 36 degrees as does our dragster.

Here is the breather we went with, works great next to no oil, just enough to lube pump and mostly just condensation.
https://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/68788/10002/-1

Thanks for all the feedback. We think we have a fix for the 2 issues.

First, the fuel flow sensor is bad. New one is on order.

As far as stud length, I gave them permission to pull the studs out of the block to fix the nut thread engagement issue. After pulling the studs out of the block, we still have more than 2 x stud diameter so that is quite healthy. Right now we have around 1" thread engagement. I consider this solved.

After further research, they found WAY too much oil on the top end. They found that there are 2 holes in the lifter and one is supposed to be plugged. He said that they normally come plugged, but these did not and they missed it. He said that was basically flooding the valve covers.

So good news and got my fingers crossed that we are past the issues.

Right, depends on the block. This is from my KB aluminum block (used with 440-1 heads). Notice the long coarse thread for extra thread engagement in the aluminum block. His also were made with that "stand off" on the coarse end (about 0.130" long) to gently touch the bottom of the holes. Ken told me the hole depth is more accurate on his blocks than the threaded length. The fine thread end (for the nuts) have the ARP "quick start" rounded end.

It is just a shame that the stud kit for a cast iron block (arranged by Koffel's with ARP?) don't have the best coarse thread length & overall length to work with the B1 heads.
It would be informative to know what N20mstr ordered for his engine.

It’s always something.

Oil control to the heads on B1 engines is important. Are you going to do more dyno pulls after fixing the excess oil flow? It would be interesting if there is a noticeable horsepower increase, or just better control of oil.

My guess was 1065, so if the oil control gives you 5-7 hp I will be real close. LOL

On my B1 deal, im oiling through the pushrods with an Indy Maxx block. I drilled each lifter and then drilled through the rear china wall. that's all plumbed to each lifter, BUT its all restriced with one .050 jet. Works well and I get literally NO oil in my catch can. After 5 passes all that came out is like 10 drops of water.

Ours have been restricted to .029" and not any issues with rockers or springs. In fact the original rockers are still in the 525 with well north of 1000 passes onthem .Only replaced springs between freshen ups once usually at 200-220 laps only to error on the side of caution. They always pulled well when taken off honestly. Never broke one either. Had 1080 open pressure, usually were at 1045-55 when pulled. There is still a take off set on my Camaro now that's street driven and raced on occasion.

Al - how much cam does the motor have? I only have 813 lbs @ max lift.

Tony and Al, do you have any pics of what you did to the oiling system?

Is it me or are THE WATER LINES MIXED-UP!!!??? One side feeds the head first the other feads the block conventionally.

I have pics, but cant get them on here. Its two dist blocks, one in 8 out. Every lifter bore is drilled and tapped for 1/8 pipe thread, they have -3 fittings. they are plumbed with 3/16 brake tubing. The inlet has a single .050 nitrous jet restricting it. works really well so far.

Also I noticed on his engine there are no drains up front. My heads are tapped front and rear for oil drains to get it back to the pan.

I would have tested, raised up the RPM until it was going down on HP more to make sure it hadn't stop gaining HP, I have seen other motor start down at a lower RPM and then go back up after 100 or 200 RPM and gain more power for another 600 to 900 RPM

Cab, don't you think the dyno operator had it covered?
6900 and 7200 rpm horsepower was nearly identical

That is exactly what I'm saying , it went down and back up and down again, I would have liked to see another 200 to 400 rpm higher tests to make sure it wasn't going to come back up again
I have no hands on experience with B! or B1MC motors yet so I'm looking really closely at all the information I can see

If you look close enough you will see that they are not crossed up. The choice of hoses makes it look like they are crossed.

The hp drops off pretty good by 7500 rpm. This dyno sheet shows it better. I only have the 2 dyno sheets - will get the rest when I pick up the motor.

They got the oil control corrected by welding up one of the holes in the lifter. made a tad more power without the top end flooded. Final hp number is 1060 hp. Jim - don't worry - your 1065 guess is within measurement error so you nailed it! LOL!

Awesome numbers! Can't wait to hear about the first track test! That's gonna be a good time!

I still have stock shafts in my 727...nearly 3900 lbs making around 1150 hp or so. Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it grenaded the next time I let go of the button, but so far it's surprised me.

It has peaked at 7200 RPM, you may need to shift above that to get the fastest ET and MPH out of it though
Test ,test and test some more

Yes, I'm sorry i see now. Is this a standard cam core or larger i.e.- 55mm? Is this a standard firing order cam grind? By the dyno sheet it says std 18436572 but you never know.

Its all standard. The block is a 2001 vintage mega block.

So the final dyno numbers changed quite a bit once the oil issue was fixed. The hp went up a tad to 1060, but the peak dropped to 6900 rpm. That surprises me. I don't know the effect on torque as they did not start it low enough.

I hope my B1 motors do as well as yours is

We need a new intake design . The intake on the tall deck does not work well at higher rpm . These heads are 30+ year old technology. Who really has made big power ? It’s always a struggle past 7000 when these engines are 500+ inches . Best machine has pioneered using the Indy intakes on these engines , but we are still at a disadvantage . The intake needs a redesign

To make 1000+ is pretty nice , and at 7.000 this engine will last a while . It’s going to run well in the car . Nice job so far

This post reminds me of the first two B1 motors I knew of, Bob Mazolini had both. The first one was a 417C.I. motor bought from Koffels to use in a Super Stock modified 1964 Plymouth Savoy raced in SS. I don't know the bore and stroke but it was in a KB aluminum block so I',m going to assume a short stroke with a large,4.500?, or so bore. Bob had to learn where to shift it which meant at 8600 RPM, not 8650 or below 8400 RPM to make it run fast. It had a set of Dominator carbs on a tunnel ram. His second motor was smaller and had the laterB1-MC heads on it, it had coolant circulation problems at the rear of one side of the block, it would kill the exhaust valve spring after one run, he blame poor machining or casting on that block for the coolant not circulating around that valve spring seat area.
I don't remember him saying how much power those motors made back then in the 1980 and 1990s, the first one ran way under the index, not sure about the second one

Cab this is what i am talking about. THe engine you mention was under 500 inches AND had a tunnel ram and two carbs on it.....Fast forward to now and we are trying to run 500++ cubes and a single four barrel with the original design B1 cast intake. THe heads underwent a little improvement with the MC and then PSO, but now we still stuck with the original design single cast intake. Clearly it needs a re design. The people that want to go fast and have to use a single 4 cast intake need to do a lot of work to get it to work, especially on tall deck (spacers add to runner length) and 500-600 inch engines

Sorry I have been in the process of moving from Vegas to Ohio. It was 870/825 gross on a 117

As for peak above 7000 my MC made peak at 7800 of 1088. The 572 in our dragster was 7400 at 1030 and was an Original. If you wonder about validity of the number the cuda went 169.78 MPH at 2900lbs, also went 162.12 at 10.90 Our dragster only was let loose once and that was in Salt Lake and went 173 there at 9800' DA and track elevation is 4400' barometer rarely sees 25.6. In Vegas the car went 7.39 at a coasting 162 weighed 1900lbs. Car was likely capable of going low low 7 teens in good air at sea level if not a tick faster. The all out runs always corrected there and based on my experience racing at altitude I have no doubt about the numbers. Kid does not have nor want and advanced Et license so we tried to keep it right 7.50, car now has a bit less engine waiting for a block to get the B1 back in it