Moparts

727 explosion poll

Posted By: dvw

727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 03:26 PM

Since the majority of posters here run a Torqueflite, let's get to the truth. Ok who's really blown one up. I mean drum explosion. No I don't want to hear if you've seen it or heard about it. I want real numbers. Lately fear is being spread. Don't just view this post, vote.
Doug
Posted By: 66er

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 03:39 PM

I saw my buddy's blow up. He had a stock drum, a standard bolt in sprang(not a super or
sprag), and he didn't have a low band applied valve body.
Posted By: CMcAllister

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 03:47 PM

Never blew one up, but I have broken a roller clutch on the starting line in a 904. And I've seen the results of numerous roller clutch failures in Torqueflites and other brands.

Not trying to spread fear or scare anyone. Just trying to tell people it happens, as proven by all the sad pictures floating around, and it's not necessary or unavoidable. Use the right parts, maintain it, drive it right and put a shield on it. And stop thinking people are full of $#!+ because you've been doing it your way for a few years and nothing bad has happened yet.
Posted By: DusterKid

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 04:02 PM

My dad has raced since 1978 I think, he did run a 4 speed for a good many years, but I'd say since the early 80's he's ran a 727. Raced every weekend from April-Oct. My sister started racing in 2000, I started in 2002. All we ever run is 727 with stock internals and a turbo action valve body. We race on 25-40 races a year depending on how many rain outs. We've never had an issue with the 727, but we also shift our cars at 6,000 and don't twist them over 6500. Our cars aren't the fastest typically mid to high 11's in 1/4 with my car high 10's. I know of one guy personally who broke a drum, but the week before he broke the ring and pinion and didn't bother checking the trans. The next pass when he left off the trans brake BANG and it made a big mess. I think as long as your smart about stuff a 727 is pretty stout, just have to be wise in your choices of how you treat them.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 04:11 PM

I ran them for a lot of years running high 9’s to low 10’s with zero special parts in them other than a manual valve body. My buddy usually charged me 150.00-200.00 to freshen them up every 5 years. My sons car now has a CRT 727 only because it came with my black Duster when I bought it. Zero issues
Posted By: n20mstr

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 04:19 PM

I exploded one big time....BUT I can tell you that I should have known it was coming.
Before I had wheelie bars, I was riding out wheelstands pretty high and far. Well eventually it caught up to me. I stood the car up on the bumper, and it was one of those " rear wheels off the track" wheel stand. That's all it took to roll the sprag, the rear tires came off the ground under power. Next pass it BLEW and I mean BAM! ! ! on the starting line. I should have known that it could have rolled the sprag, and should have taken the car home and inspected it before raing again.

IF you race a T flite, you have to be aware of what causes sprag damage and if you think you hurt the sprag….DONT race the car, until you make sure. Im pretty sure its almost always a broken sprag that allows the drum to overspeed and explode.
Posted By: Locomotion

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 04:26 PM

I've blown a 727 or two many, many years ago in a bracket car. I'm happy to say that I have never blown or heard of a drum blow in a 904. Always read that the smaller diameter and lighter weight makes it less prone to breakage. I have broke a few sprags in a 904.
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 06:00 PM

To no one in particular - but every one of the ORC failures I have seen started with an event.

Broke something in the driveline, spun then hooked the tires, bad wheel hop, severe tire shake, and doing dry hops. You can’t damage the ORC in 2nd or third gear by driving the car in any manner.

It always starts by what happened in first gear. At least on a street or drag car.

Trucks can fail the ORC by driveline snap when coming out of park when the truck is loaded on an incline.

The similarities between the car and truck is called roller spit-back.

Using LBA valve bodies will mitigate, and using an aluminum drum will keep the parts from coming through the floor but the first harmful event will generally always be driveline failure, driver error and/or lack of inspection after the event.


So......install your bolt in ORC, aluminum front clutch drum, put a good shield on it, instruct the driver how to launch the car, proper way to do a burnout, and maintain the trans after an event.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Posted By: birdtracker

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 06:35 PM

I have blew one up, going down a country road at 60 mph. Spit the driveshaft out into the ditch, that we never found. Bent the output shaft enough for it to get into the floor and rip a big circle out. Found out the transmission had been in a car that lost the driveshaft. Then I bought it and was never told about it. Birdtracker
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 06:56 PM

Never blew one up.. start spinning.. shift the damn thing.. on and
off the gas is just about a guarantee to blow a sprag.. thats a big
slam into the sprag ramps.. when you spin the sprag you start
to spin the drum 2.2 times faster than the engine RPM.. being
the the 727 is larger in diameter it will only take so many RPMs
and it come apart at ABOUT 13000 rpm.. a 904 drum is smaller
in diameter so it can go to higher RPMs
wave
Posted By: lancer493

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 07:01 PM

Ran a B&M Clutchflite for several years in the mid 70's.A manual clutch and scattershield replaced the torque converter,for those too young to remember them.(poor man's Lenco at the time). Idid use a blanket also,but had know idea what a handgrenade I was sitting next to. The high gear clutch drum was a hemi unit, bigger and heavier than the units used today.(same factory material-bigger bomb).Being only about 24yrs old at the time,trans was always "freshened up" with good appearing, used stock parts.Traditional backyard rebuilds.
The car was a big block Nova,running 9.80's @140. It weighed 3220lbs with me in it.After 75 passes it had to come apart. When I called Vinny at Vitar transmissions,he said it was never intended for cars at that weight. He laughed when I told him it had 75 passes without adjusting 2nd gear band. Said that should have been done every 5-10 passes.
Trans was hard to keep from leaking.From what I've learned now,I am so lucky it never blew up. It had a 50lb flywheel , 5.57 gears, launched at over 7500rpm and crossed at 8500rpm. Young and ignorant! Current T-flite has all the good internals,flexplate sheild and blanket. When I look down at my feet, I realize just how "LUCKY" I was! But I do admit how fun that car was to drive! - Bill
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by lancer493
Ran a B&M Clutchflite for several years in the mid 70's.A manual clutch and scattershield replaced the torque converter,for those too young to remember them.(poor man's Lenco at the time). Idid use a blanket also,but had know idea what a handgrenade I was sitting next to. The high gear clutch drum was a hemi unit, bigger and heavier than the units used today.(same factory material-bigger bomb).Being only about 24yrs old at the time,trans was always "freshened up" with good appearing, used stock parts.Traditional backyard rebuilds.
The car was a big block Nova,running 9.80's @140. It weighed 3220lbs with me in it.After 75 passes it had to come apart. When I called Vinny at Vitar transmissions,he said it was never intended for cars at that weight. He laughed when I told him it had 75 passes without adjusting 2nd gear band. Said that should have been done every 5-10 passes.
Trans was hard to keep from leaking.From what I've learned now,I am so lucky it never blew up. It had a 50lb flywheel , 5.57 gears, launched at over 7500rpm and crossed at 8500rpm. Young and ignorant! Current T-flite has all the good internals,flexplate sheild and blanket. When I look down at my feet, I realize just how "LUCKY" I was! But I do admit how fun that car was to drive! - Bill


I ran one of those also for about 2 years.. I had nothing but troubles
with that whole car so I sold it.. was a 62 Dart with a hemi and that
trans
wave
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 07:28 PM

I had one grenade big time in 2008. It lasted 2 years running mid 9s at 3800 lbs before it let go...and it let go in grand fashion. Made a big mess of my floorpan, headers, and all over the track. Loud boom, fireball out from underneath the car and up the windshield, felt like someone hit my right ankle w/ a hammer. It pushed the CSR shield up into the floor, pushed the floorpan up until it stopped against the brake pedal. Dented and cracked one header, tweaked the driveshaft. Crawled under the car and all you could see was the torque converter, assorted clutches and steels hanging off the input shaft, and then the tailshaft housing. The cooling lines were hanging down w/ a small piece of the case that the fitting screwed into still attached.
There was nothing left of the valvebody, pan, or case. Every bolt I took out of the bellhousing, another small piece fell off, lol.

My first pass that night it spun the tires, I let out of it, shifted to 2nd, then got back in it. Like I always do...never getting back on the throttle in 1st after letting out.
Next pass it blew up as soon as I went WOT.

It was a stock drum w/ a bolt in sprag (not that the type of sprag matters).
Posted By: BradH

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 08:20 PM

Me? No.

Seen it happen to others? Yes, one time down at VMP. It was not pretty for either the car or the driver.

And then I spent the $$$ to put better parts in mine so that hopefully I stay in the "No" vote category. luck
Posted By: JAKE68

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 08:31 PM

First full pass when I put a hemi in my car. We were at a msca event in Canada and broke a ring gear and exploded trans. parts went all the way to grand stands. took an hour clean up the mess then the tow truck when putting the car on blew a hyd. line and dumped fluid again on track and it took another hour to clean up. the other racers where not happy!!! when I went to work on he car later I took the rest of trans out of car without a wrench.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by lancer493
Ran a B&M Clutchflite for several years in the mid 70's.A manual clutch and scattershield replaced the torque converter,for those too young to remember them.(poor man's Lenco at the time). Idid use a blanket also,but had know idea what a handgrenade I was sitting next to. The high gear clutch drum was a hemi unit, bigger and heavier than the units used today.(same factory material-bigger bomb).


You just told my life story which merely illustrates the difference between doing it wrong and getting away with it and doing it right. Never blew one but should have.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/04/19 10:28 PM

A good Friend of mine blew his chevy powered front-engine dragster at norwalk and a piece of it hit a guy in the forehead while sitting in the stands. Not a bad cut but a bleeder and when the guy sitting in front of him turned around he passed out. Shortly after that track personnel came walking around having us sign a track insurance rider. When that thing blew the separated case spun around and luckily an ear caught a moly frame tube (and bent it) as it was going to keep spinning between his legs. The transmission blanket looked like ground up fiberglass and it shredded his Morse cables. I heard that years later a lawsuit was filed.
Posted By: wyoming

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 02:31 AM

I blew one in Vegas at Mopars at the Strip, Id have to look up some invoices to tell you what year for sure but it was the second one, left the line during time trials, broke an 83/4 rear end, tranny blew immediately, bent up the floor boards, bruised my feet, glad the tranny blanket contained most of the force, cost me some bucks. Bought a Dana, rebuilt tranny with aluminium drum, no issues since.
Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 03:54 AM

Never blew one up as hard as I tried but have smoked a few................ whistling
Whatever I broke was upgraded of course!

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Posted By: jlatessa

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 04:31 AM

Hey Pittsburg racer, that accident at Norwalk wasn't 50 years or so ago was it?
I was at a similar incident there late 60s/early 70s

Not pretty, I thought I remembered the person dying, but it was a loooooong time ago.

Joe
Posted By: Roughbird72

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 01:36 PM

Thankfully and mostly to reading posts on Moparts about building, racing and the do/don'ts on 727s I haven't had any any explosions luck
I'm not sure how I didn't roll a sprag or two in my younger days with some of the stupid **** I use to do.
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by jlatessa
Hey Pittsburg racer, that accident at Norwalk wasn't 50 years or so ago was it?
I was at a similar incident there late 60s/early 70s

Not pretty, I thought I remembered the person dying, but it was a loooooong time ago.

Joe






I have been going to Norwalk for a long time but not 50 years (YET). This was back when norwalk was all gravel pits and the left side of the track was a bicycle motocross so in the 1970's somewhere. No one was killed when my buddies (clutchflight) exploded but like I said it was ugly. (one person hurt, one person passed out). This is how Norwalk looked back then.

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Posted By: dart games

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 02:42 PM

blew up one,had oil and parts visit me,i will never trust another,although there in both my cars

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Posted By: moparx

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 03:07 PM

to think of all the neutral drops and J hooks [fast in reverse, then low drive] we did in our younger days, not one transmission blown, but smoked a bunch of clutch packs causing big time slippage or a "no go" condition. but then, my junkyard had a ton of "freebies". biggrin
beer
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 04:29 PM

No drum explosion for me. Have stripped a sprag and broken the aluminum front gear spline teeth. Upgraded all that stuff years ago, with A&A Super sprag, Steel front gear, and billet steel drum.
Posted By: jwb123

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 05:47 PM

I started drag racing in 1974, and have raced 5 to 10 events every year since then. I also build transmission for several of the local racers in my area. I have seen eight 727 transmissions blow up while I was at the track at the event. I have built replacements for two transmissions that blew up when I was not at the event. I have seen four turbo 350 chevy's blow up as well, they break a roller clutch going into 2nd gear. I understand how the 727 works, so I drive it the right way, most likely you will never have an issue, but develop a brain fart and boom they will go off, no hype, buy the drum, it's cheaper than all the stuff it will break if it does go, not to mention the doctor bills if it comes inside. Of those eight blow ups I saw three came inside the vehicle, thankfully no one was seriously hurt, one did need to go to the hospital and walked with a cane for several months. The ones that came in the car all had carbon fiber shields, not blankets.
I did blow up a flywheel on a 79 dart 4-speed car, and that put the fear of god in me, no manual trans car after, that I owned, did not have a blow proof bellhousing.
Posted By: Azzkikrcuda

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 06:27 PM

Never blown one up or ever seen one blow up. I start all my burn outs in first, doesn't matter what gear you start in, its what gear you come out in that hurts parts. twocents
Posted By: A727Tflite

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 06:35 PM

[quote=Azzkikrcuda] I start all my burn outs in first, doesn't matter what gear you start in, its what gear you come out in that hurts parts. twocents [/quote


I’m interested in how you came up with this.

Do you have facts?
Posted By: gsmopar

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/05/19 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by jwb123
I started drag racing in 1974, and have raced 5 to 10 events every year since then. I also build transmission for several of the local racers in my area. I have seen eight 727 transmissions blow up while I was at the track at the event. I have built replacements for two transmissions that blew up when I was not at the event. I have seen four turbo 350 chevy's blow up as well, they break a roller clutch going into 2nd gear. I understand how the 727 works, so I drive it the right way, most likely you will never have an issue, but develop a brain fart and boom they will go off, no hype, buy the drum, it's cheaper than all the stuff it will break if it does go, not to mention the doctor bills if it comes inside. Of those eight blow ups I saw three came inside the vehicle, thankfully no one was seriously hurt, one did need to go to the hospital and walked with a cane for several months. The ones that came in the car all had carbon fiber shields, not blankets.
I did blow up a flywheel on a 79 dart 4-speed car, and that put the fear of god in me, no manual trans car after, that I owned, did not have a blow proof bellhousing.


I've read similar experiences with the carbon fiber shields. It would be nice if NHRA would allow a blanket on the interior of the car. Sure would be easier than burning straps on the headers. up
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 04:33 AM

I also learned of this phenomenon pre internet when a friends Challenger broke a rear gear (8.75) and BOOM!! Stuff went everywhere. Wrapped the floor skin around his lower leg. Wiped out the gauges, small shards stuck in door panels. Needless to say blankets and billet drums became a must.

Cousins car a few years back at Vegas broke the gear (8.75) and shocked the sprag so hard it split the case.
Posted By: quickd100

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 02:26 PM

I ve been lucky. Closest was breaking a rear U-joint just off the starting line. Trashed the driveshaft, tailshaft housing, rolled the overrunning clutch, and even put the fan through my brand new aluminum radiator. I now have a super sprag, billet steel front drum, limiters on the engine and trans.
Posted By: BradH

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 02:49 PM

It's been pretty consistent at about 10% responding "Yes" ...
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by BradH
It's been pretty consistent at about 10% responding "Yes" ...


And 90% of those yeses were due to doing stupid things like pedaling
it when they loose traction
wave
Posted By: NANKET

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 03:08 PM

I build my own 727’s and do them for other racers. Never an explosion and no LBA valve bodies. We talk about the correct way to do burnouts and drive.
Posted By: dvw

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by BradH
It's been pretty consistent at about 10% responding "Yes" ...



I wonder if any of the 1200+ views didn't vote if they blew one up?
Doug
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 06:34 PM

The “fear” being spread is not only a possibility, but also preventable. It’s my recommendation that if you’re going to a track with a 727, have a GOOD drum in it. A sheild or blanket would be great too, but job one is getting that stock drum out of the picture. Biggest deal is that ALL the collateral damage this failure can cause. Eliminate the risk!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by J_BODY
The “fear” being spread is not only a possibility, but also preventable. It’s my recommendation that if you’re going to a track with a 727, have a GOOD drum in it. A sheild or blanket would be great too, but job one is getting that stock drum out of the picture. Biggest deal is that ALL the collateral damage this failure can cause. Eliminate the risk!




I still run a stock drum... if people would learn to drive it properly there
isnt any issue.. that same stock drum has been in there since I first
built the trans.. I have had the trans apart 3 times.. I did break the 8 3/4
once and I checked the sprag.. it was fine but I still replaced it
wave
Posted By: J_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 11:33 PM

How does “learning to drive” play into the rear gear breaking causing the event? Both situations I was present for were seasoned racers. Proper burnout, move to the line, bring up the rpm, green/go/BOOM!! in both of these situations they were foot brake cars so the preload was there. One a high 9 car, the other a 10 sec deal with NOS that wasn’t even used that day. Both 8.75

There is something your stock drum can do that a billet or aluminum can’t. In the event of mayhem you’ll have the chance to see smile

I ran a lightened cross drilled stock drum in the Mirada for many years. I broke a set of gears (8.75 of course) and threw another set in. I was lucky.... to be honest back in the day I didn’t have a clue. Chuck Lofgren was at the track the day my friend blew the floor out of his Challenger. He stopped by and took a look and educated us, matter of fact he pretty much assured us that the gear was broken even though it pushed back and towed back to the pits ok. He was spot on. I still say upgrade that 727 front drum. Cheap insurance. Think of all the bad things that “could” happen that are eliminated by this upgrade.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/06/19 11:50 PM

One thing that some forget to do is when they get to the line they put
the car into neutral and clear the engine then pull it into low without
rolling forward about 5 feet.. the rolling forward sets the sprag and
takes the slack out
wave
Posted By: SportF

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by jwb123
I started drag racing in 1974, and have raced 5 to 10 events every year since then. I also build transmission for several of the local racers in my area. I have seen eight 727 transmissions blow up while I was at the track at the event. I have built replacements for two transmissions that blew up when I was not at the event. I have seen four turbo 350 chevy's blow up as well, they break a roller clutch going into 2nd gear. I understand how the 727 works, so I drive it the right way, most likely you will never have an issue, but develop a brain fart and boom they will go off, no hype, buy the drum, it's cheaper than all the stuff it will break if it does go, not to mention the doctor bills if it comes inside. Of those eight blow ups I saw three came inside the vehicle, thankfully no one was seriously hurt, one did need to go to the hospital and walked with a cane for several months. The ones that came in the car all had carbon fiber shields, not blankets.
I did blow up a flywheel on a 79 dart 4-speed car, and that put the fear of god in me, no manual trans car after, that I owned, did not have a blow proof bellhousing.



"The ones that came in the car all had carbon fiber shields, not blankets" Same deal with a friend, the shield did nothing, and he almost lost his foot. I run a blanket. Run something safety wise.
Posted By: Hemi_Joel

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 02:13 AM

If you rely on a mistake free existence for your safety, you are living dangerously. work
Posted By: farmboy

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 03:48 AM

Pretty sure I rolled a sprag today. Nothing came apart, thanks to an aluminum drum. Brain fart on a previous pass likely caused the problem
Posted By: Tig

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 11:49 AM

Ring and pinion failure caused this, there's enough internet pics and scarey story's out there to make me put the good stuff in. shocked (LBA VB, super sprag and Steel drum) [Linked Image]
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 12:20 PM

I responded to the poll with a no. I have seen what was left of a trans when they blow, but it never happened to me.
Im putting a clutchflite together here in the near future. It will have a good drum etc... I’ve been sold on that for a long time.
What I was thinking after reading through this thread though, is how can you know if the sprag failed without opening up the trans?(or having it open itself up) I had an A&A built 727 in the turbo car. I kept shearing pinions off of the rear end. The last one did some damage to the car( driveshaft whipping around) Anyway, after having that trans out a few times for inspection, I thought it would have been nice to know if the sprag is ok without going in.
Anyway.... since im going to be doing this trans, it would be pretty simple and cheap to install a drum speed sensor in the trans. With EFI, I can set my drum rotation limit to say 500 rpm higher than engine redline. If the drum exceedes that threshold, the ECU can shut down fuel/ ignition.
Good/ Bad/ Ugly? Anybody see a potential problem with doing this?
Posted By: moparacer

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 01:22 PM

I have never blown one up but have seen guys blow them up and seen what was left after guys blew them up and all I have to say is that is enough to put the fear of god in you about blowing one up. If you break something in the drive train you pull the tans and check the sprag....PERIOD.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by TRENDZ
I responded to the poll with a no. I have seen what was left of a trans when they blow, but it never happened to me.
Im putting a clutchflite together here in the near future. It will have a good drum etc... I’ve been sold on that for a long time.
What I was thinking after reading through this thread though, is how can you know if the sprag failed without opening up the trans?(or having it open itself up) I had an A&A built 727 in the turbo car. I kept shearing pinions off of the rear end. The last one did some damage to the car( driveshaft whipping around) Anyway, after having that trans out a few times for inspection, I thought it would have been nice to know if the sprag is ok without going in.
Anyway.... since im going to be doing this trans, it would be pretty simple and cheap to install a drum speed sensor in the trans. With EFI, I can set my drum rotation limit to say 500 rpm higher than engine redline. If the drum exceedes that threshold, the ECU can shut down fuel/ ignition.
Good/ Bad/ Ugly? Anybody see a potential problem with doing this?


The sprag can still let go.. are you talking a 727.. you can figure out the RPM
that it can let go if you use 2.2 times the engine rpm to see if the rpm is
lower than 12500 rpm.. thats basically the rpm that the drum can handle
before centrifugal force lets go and it blows
wave
Posted By: OUTLAWSSAA

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by J_BODY
How does “learning to drive” play into the rear gear breaking causing the event? Both situations I was present for were seasoned racers. Proper burnout, move to the line, bring up the rpm, green/go/BOOM!! in both of these situations they were foot brake cars so the preload was there. One a high 9 car, the other a 10 sec deal with NOS that wasn’t even used that day. Both 8.75

There is something your stock drum can do that a billet or aluminum can’t. In the event of mayhem you’ll have the chance to see smile

I ran a lightened cross drilled stock drum in the Mirada for many years. I broke a set of gears (8.75 of course) and threw another set in. I was lucky.... to be honest back in the day I didn’t have a clue. Chuck Lofgren was at the track the day my friend blew the floor out of his Challenger. He stopped by and took a look and educated us, matter of fact he pretty much assured us that the gear was broken even though it pushed back and towed back to the pits ok. He was spot on. I still say upgrade that 727 front drum. Cheap insurance. Think of all the bad things that “could” happen that are eliminated by this upgrade.


This post makes all the cents in the world. I don't care if you've been running a stock drum for 150yrs. You shouldn't be running a race car with a stock drum. Your playing with fire.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by TRENDZ
I responded to the poll with a no. I have seen what was left of a trans when they blow, but it never happened to me.
Im putting a clutchflite together here in the near future. It will have a good drum etc... I’ve been sold on that for a long time.
What I was thinking after reading through this thread though, is how can you know if the sprag failed without opening up the trans?(or having it open itself up) I had an A&A built 727 in the turbo car. I kept shearing pinions off of the rear end. The last one did some damage to the car( driveshaft whipping around) Anyway, after having that trans out a few times for inspection, I thought it would have been nice to know if the sprag is ok without going in.
Anyway.... since im going to be doing this trans, it would be pretty simple and cheap to install a drum speed sensor in the trans. With EFI, I can set my drum rotation limit to say 500 rpm higher than engine redline. If the drum exceedes that threshold, the ECU can shut down fuel/ ignition.
Good/ Bad/ Ugly? Anybody see a potential problem with doing this?


The only problem with that is it doesn't allow for inertia.

Kevin
Posted By: 6bblFLASH

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 08:30 PM

No never broke one either. Have seen a couple friends blow them apart,,,,,,,,,ugly for sure.
My trans guy and very experienced racer said " if the output drags in one direction and freewheels the other,the sprag is working";
This what I check on a regular basis. So far I still need 2 shoes...........
Posted By: CRT

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/07/19 11:21 PM

In the early 90s the drum in my coronet blew up. It was the last cheetah vb I used. I built 1000s of transmissions and mine was the only one that ever blew up on me.

Attached picture 20171225_091235.jpg
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 12:52 AM

So, if drum speed cuts fuel and ignition, how would drum speed ever exceed its programmed limit?
Even if the sprag is in a failed state, the drum would go 2.45 x engine rpm. But engine rpm is not the fuel/ignition cut determing switch, drum speed is.
Lets say I set max drum speed at 8000 rpm, if the sprag was in a failed state, engine rpm would only get to a little over 3,265 rpm before fuel/ ignition cut. A bit of inertia wouldn’t let it exceed the rpm limit, it would only prolong its deceleration.
Posted By: dvw

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by TRENDZ
So, if drum speed cuts fuel and ignition, how would drum speed ever exceed its programmed limit?
Even if the sprag is in a failed state, the drum would go 2.45 x engine rpm. But engine rpm is not the fuel/ignition cut determing switch, drum speed is.
Lets say I set max drum speed at 8000 rpm, if the sprag was in a failed state, engine rpm would only get to a little over 3,265 rpm before fuel/ ignition cut. A bit of inertia wouldn’t let it exceed the rpm limit, it would only prolong its deceleration.


If the engine was limited 3200 rpm you'd be pretty slow.
Doug
Posted By: dagohman

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 01:07 AM

Ive never had one blow, but my stuff is slow.. grin The last engine was only 7.10 in the 1/8th, the previous was 7.50. I go to the Mopar race at SGMP just about every yr, and dont recall seeing one blow there either
Posted By: dvw

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 01:11 AM

There has been 1750 views to this thread. I'm sure some are double looks, stick shift guys, non Mopar owners, Late model non 727 owners, etc. We've had 20 votes saying the voter personally blew up a drum. My bet is just about anyone who experienced personal failure voted attesting to that fact. Lately there have been many posts of paranoia about 727's. Many of these posters with no personal experience. This was out of line in my opinion. Shields, bolt-in sprags are no more than band aids. If you are worried about a drum explosion skip right past them and buy a good drum. If you have enough power to break the drive train this is probably a good idea. But as the poll shows most 727 trans will lead a happy life when driven correctly.
Doug
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by dvw
Originally Posted by TRENDZ
So, if drum speed cuts fuel and ignition, how would drum speed ever exceed its programmed limit?
Even if the sprag is in a failed state, the drum would go 2.45 x engine rpm. But engine rpm is not the fuel/ignition cut determing switch, drum speed is.
Lets say I set max drum speed at 8000 rpm, if the sprag was in a failed state, engine rpm would only get to a little over 3,265 rpm before fuel/ ignition cut. A bit of inertia wouldn’t let it exceed the rpm limit, it would only prolong its deceleration.


If the engine was limited 3200 rpm you'd be pretty slow.
Doug


Yeah. Thats the idea. How fast would you try to go with a failed sprag?
Posted By: Twostick

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by TRENDZ
So, if drum speed cuts fuel and ignition, how would drum speed ever exceed its programmed limit?
Even if the sprag is in a failed state, the drum would go 2.45 x engine rpm. But engine rpm is not the fuel/ignition cut determing switch, drum speed is.
Lets say I set max drum speed at 8000 rpm, if the sprag was in a failed state, engine rpm would only get to a little over 3,265 rpm before fuel/ ignition cut. A bit of inertia wouldn’t let it exceed the rpm limit, it would only prolong its deceleration.


That drum and everything that is spinning with it at 8000 rpm has more than a little bit of inertia. I don't know how far past 8000 it would accelerate but I think it's going to speed up before it slows down. If you're up on the converter at 5500 when the sprag fails the inertia from the rotating assembly alone will be enough to spin it up past 8000 and it all happens in the blink of an eye.

If you have a wheel come off a car at 60 mph, the first thing it does is pass the car because of the inertia.

Kevin
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 02:27 AM

The wheel passes the car because a 3 wheeled car slows down.😀
If the sprag has failed, the engine could never get to 5500 with my little trick.
If you set a 2 step rev limiter on a car to lets say 5000rpm, how high does inertia take that engine beyond 5000 rpm?
Posted By: moparx

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 02:16 PM

i had a left rear wheel break the center on my wife's 76 chrysler, going down the interstate at 75mph. by the time it exited from under the 1/4 panel, it went straight up in the air !
you shoulda seen the cars behind me dodge that thing. biggrin when it came down, it slingshotted over the guard rail into the woods.
then there was the sparks from the u bolts grinding down on the concrete.
luckily, no one was hurt, and no damage to anyone behind me.
beer
Posted By: BradH

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hemi_Joel
If you rely on a mistake free existence for your safety, you are living dangerously. work

My luck's not that good... never won a lottery, either.
Posted By: 1118Steve

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 04:43 PM

Never blown one up, and have been racing them for fifty years. Have only seen four come apart, and one of those were when we were doing neutral starts back in the late sixties. Don't screw around and do stupid stuff in low gear and you will be fine. Keep after your stuff,, don't do burnouts in low gear, and check it close if you have a drive line failure. But, it makes for good pictures and gets the kids all riled up on this board.......I'd be interested to know of those "it's gonna blow up" crowd have dual street/strip cars, out blowing the street tires off in low gear to impress the kids on Saturday, bolt some slicks on Sunday and the trans comes apart on the first hit because they overturned the sprag screwing around the evening before. You guys can hit the panic button, but I'll just keep doing it the way I've done for 50 years. .
Posted By: 6PKRTSE

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 05:47 PM

I have thousands of passes under my belt over the last 32 years. Never blown one up into pieces even with running some pretty serious 9 second Street cars. I have lost reverse, and second in a couple different cars and different transmissions over the years but nothing major. I always run a huge cooler and do high gear burnouts. My current torqueflite is a CRT with a J.W. SFI Bellhousing added that I bought from my buddy when he went to a Glide. Hoping it holds up to what I am putting to it.
Posted By: justinp61

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 06:26 PM

I've done a bunch of stupid stuff including dropping in reverse at about 100 mph and never blew one up. The only one I've seen blow up was in the Foolish Pleasure RR at Bristol probably 15 years ago. It looked like a bomb went off in it.. My current 727 has a steel drum in it, money well spent IMO.
Posted By: BradH

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by justinp61
... The only one I've seen blow up was in the Foolish Pleasure RR at Bristol probably 15 years ago. It looked like a bomb went off in it.

I'll have to ask Billy Hughes (he owns the Foolish Pleasure RR) about that the next time I see him, since he lives pretty close to me. That car has a BUNCH of passes on it from years of racing, so I'd like to know if that's the only time he grenade one, too.
Posted By: justinp61

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by BradH
Originally Posted by justinp61
... The only one I've seen blow up was in the Foolish Pleasure RR at Bristol probably 15 years ago. It looked like a bomb went off in it.

I'll have to ask Billy Hughes (he owns the Foolish Pleasure RR) about that the next time I see him, since he lives pretty close to me. That car has a BUNCH of passes on it from years of racing, so I'd like to know if that's the only time he grenade one, too.


I did have some photo's of the carnage but that was several computers ago.
Posted By: slantzilla

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/08/19 10:46 PM

I have never blown one up, but I have seen at least 1/2 dozen go up at the track over the years. Everything from a high 13 second 340 car to a low 9 second big block Dart. One let go in front of me at Clay City last year. Why anyone would not spend the money on a drum is beyond me.
Posted By: 68roadrunner

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/09/19 01:56 AM

where is qwkdan when we need him, blowing one up in his shop truck at gateway, not pretty
Posted By: RHB

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/10/19 08:05 PM

No, I have not blown one up. No, I have not witnessed one blowing up (except for one Turbo 400). Yes, I have spoken to car owners and drivers who have. Injuries vary from light discomfort to actually loosing body parts, big medical bills and lost wages. Not to mention repair bills to the car. Reasons for these events happening are also varied. Improper operation, symbiotic drive train component failures. Although this problem maybe more acute in a 727, other manufactures (GM & Ford) are not safe from total transmission explosions either. Truth is, there are many reasons why transmissions fail. Not just the ones mentioned here.
One member here mentioned applying ballistic material to the floor of the car. Why won't this work? If the ballistic material is applied to the inside of the floor the parts are still going to come through the floor! Only this time you will get hit by the parts including the ballistic material. Considering the weight and kenetic energy transmissions store this is not something you want to be hit by. Containing the explosion and the spuewing of parts has to be contained at the source. This is why NHRA/IHRA and other racing sanctions endorse the SFI Foundation's decision that requires the transmission containment system be applied to the transmission case itself.
Posted By: dartman366

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/10/19 11:53 PM

Didn't see it happen but saw the after effects of one puke it's internals while on the jackstands at Norwalk one year,, don't know the story but it sure made a good size pile of shrapnel under the car.
Posted By: moparx

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/11/19 03:00 PM

even when one blows with those carbon fiber covers [i think they are made of that material], there is still a big bang to the floor. why hasn't anyone used something like a 1/4" thick aluminum [1/8-3/16 thick steel] transmission tunnel for added protection ? that wouldn't add but just a few extra pounds, and be a little better on a guy's feet in the process.
beer
Posted By: dvw

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/11/19 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by moparx
even when one blows with those carbon fiber covers [i think they are made of that material], there is still a big bang to the floor. why hasn't anyone used something like a 1/4" thick aluminum [1/8-3/16 thick steel] transmission tunnel for added protection ? that wouldn't add but just a few extra pounds, and be a little better on a guy's feet in the process.
beer

TCI makes aluminum shields. That what I run. Harder to fit as they aren't as snug to the trans.

Doug
Posted By: OUTLAWSSAA

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/11/19 08:22 PM

Those shields will not stop an exploding drum. Ask Don Bruemmer who runs a 67 Plymouth in the NSS Victory series what happened to his feet when his stock drum exploded. It went through the case,then the shield,and finally through the floor into his feet. Sent him to the hospital and off the race track for about a year. Moral of the story. If you race 727 don't use a stock drum.
Posted By: moparx

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/12/19 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by dvw
Originally Posted by moparx
even when one blows with those carbon fiber covers [i think they are made of that material], there is still a big bang to the floor. why hasn't anyone used something like a 1/4" thick aluminum [1/8-3/16 thick steel] transmission tunnel for added protection ? that wouldn't add but just a few extra pounds, and be a little better on a guy's feet in the process.
beer

TCI makes aluminum shields. That what I run. Harder to fit as they aren't as snug to the trans.

Doug


i have one of those TCI shields as well for my 33 humpback panel projects. i liked that because of the extra clearance around the shifter lever arm, which i am going to convert to a pushbutton setup.
beer
Posted By: dvw

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/12/19 06:19 PM



i have one of those TCI shields as well for my 33 humpback panel projects. i liked that because of the extra clearance around the shifter lever arm, which i am going to convert to a pushbutton setup.
beer [/quote]
Mine is a push button, fits fine
Doug
Posted By: 318 Stroker

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/12/19 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by 68roadrunner
where is qwkdan when we need him, blowing one up in his shop truck at gateway, not pretty


I saw the damage. Parts went ripping up all the way through the dashboard. Gave me the a cold chill just looking at it.
Posted By: SportF

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/12/19 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by OUTLAWSSAA
Those shields will not stop an exploding drum. Ask Don Bruemmer who runs a 67 Plymouth in the NSS Victory series what happened to his feet when his stock drum exploded. It went through the case,then the shield,and finally through the floor into his feet. Sent him to the hospital and off the race track for about a year. Moral of the story. If you race 727 don't use a stock drum.



I was there, the shield did nothing, nothing. It was a '65 Plymouth, but not that it matters.


BTW for years now its been a complete waste of my time putting on my helmet, putting on the belts, and using a trans blanket. A complete waste of time. I think I will continue though...…..
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/12/19 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by OUTLAWSSAA
If you race 727 don't use a stock drum.


They won't listen, every anecdotal tale of hundreds of runs on a stock drum reinforces the belief that explosions are rare and not to worry. rolleyes
Posted By: Twostick

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Originally Posted by OUTLAWSSAA
If you race 727 don't use a stock drum.


They won't listen, every anecdotal tale of hundreds of runs on a stock drum reinforces the belief that explosions are rare and not to worry. rolleyes


There is also the mistaken belief that the explosion is somehow just horsepower related when it is strictly a function of RPM x 2.45.

Anything capable of hitting 6000 on the tach, even briefly, can blow up a drum.

Kevin
Posted By: BradH

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by BradH
It's been pretty consistent at about 10% responding "Yes" ...

Looks like it still is, regardless of whether people view it as the result of ignorance or an inappropriate application for an OEM drum.
Posted By: CSK

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 12:39 PM

Not trying to hijack this BUT, I am going to assume the a518,46,47,48 RH,RE have the same drum that explodes in the 727 ?
Posted By: jlatessa

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 01:03 PM

OK, I'm convinced, what drum is recommended for a 727 behind a 465 hp RB with a redline at 6000 RPM?
We DON'T have a rev limiter, or might that be a better (and cheaper) solution?

Thanks, Joe
Posted By: TRENDZ

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 01:51 PM

I would suggest a steel drum available from any sponsors on the board. They are all competitive in price.
An engine rev limiter will have no real effect on drum failure. If anyone took my previous posts that way, I guess I need to clarify.
The drum fails from exceeding its designed rpm limit. The only real way to get to that rpm is with gear multiplication. When the sprag fails, the drum is instantly accelerated because the low gear set in the trans comes into the equation. Low gear ratio is 2.45 :1 . So, engine rpm x 2:45 = drum rpm.
My idea was to add a drum speed sensor. With normal transmission operation, the drum speed should never be higher than engine speed. If drum speed would exceed engine rpm, the engine would be shut down regardless of engine rpm if a drum speed sensor was a limiter input.
Posted By: JACK1440

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 01:56 PM

I upgraded the drum and sprag a few years ago in the thought of safety. I spent thousands on the engine. For a lot less then that I can add some insurance to the tranny. One thought I've always had is I watch guys stage their car and don't bother taking the slack out of the transmission. I wonder if this can't play into it? I've seen some back into the second amber because the over ran it and just slap it in low gear. I don't know, but it always makes me cringe.
Posted By: Twostick

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by JACK1440
I upgraded the drum and sprag a few years ago in the thought of safety. I spent thousands on the engine. For a lot less then that I can add some insurance to the tranny. One thought I've always had is I watch guys stage their car and don't bother taking the slack out of the transmission. I wonder if this can't play into it? I've seen some back into the second amber because the over ran it and just slap it in low gear. I don't know, but it always makes me cringe.


That probably causes a large percentage of failures with non LBA valve bodies.

Kevin
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by JACK1440
I upgraded the drum and sprag a few years ago in the thought of safety. I spent thousands on the engine. For a lot less then that I can add some insurance to the tranny. One thought I've always had is I watch guys stage their car and don't bother taking the slack out of the transmission. I wonder if this can't play into it? I've seen some back into the second amber because the over ran it and just slap it in low gear. I don't know, but it always makes me cringe.


When you go to stage you need to be rolling forward a couple of feet while
in low so you set the sprag.. I wonder why all the old timers didnt have
issues.. back before there was any trick drums the guys use to use just
a stock drum.. for years and years I was told NEVER pedal while in low
gear SHIFT IT FIRST.. get out of low as soon as you can.. it can ONLY blow
when you pedal it in LOW.. also I was told not to put it in neutral to clear
the engine without have a couple of feet or more to roll forward in low..
these old timers still have both feet.. but it was pounded into their heads
not to pedal it in low.. you already lost the race so why break your stuff
wave
Posted By: 383man

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/13/19 03:19 PM

My brother and I have never blown one up or even seen one blow up. He races way more then me but I did race a lot back in the late 70's and early 80's. My brother goes racing at least twice a month and me about twice a year. Ron
Posted By: Roughbird72

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/14/19 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
Originally Posted by OUTLAWSSAA
If you race 727 don't use a stock drum.


They won't listen, every anecdotal tale of hundreds of runs on a stock drum reinforces the belief that explosions are rare and not to worry. rolleyes


Yeh... stock cast drums that are decades old, with who knows how many miles them.
I put a billet steel drum in my 11 second street/strip car ... because I can't get a new foot for $600 twocents
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/14/19 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Roughbird72
Originally Posted by John_Kunkel
[quote=OUTLAWSSAA] If you race 727 don't use a stock drum.


Yeh... stock cast drums that are decades old, with who knows how many miles them.
I put a billet steel drum in my 11 second street/strip car ... because I can't get a new foot for $600 twocents
iagree
You can't see a Dr. in any emergency room now for less than a baziillion dollars now, correct work
AKA aside, I've seen the results of front drum exploding at the track, NOT GOOD tsk
Luckily both drivers where not injured much boogie
Not so on both cars whiney
Posted By: slantzilla

Re: 727 explosion poll - 04/14/19 09:40 PM

The guy who blew the drum on the 13 second car was warned by his trans guy to put a drum in it, an LBA valvebody or at least a blanket on it. He said he couldn't afford it. The drum messed his foot up bad enough he was off work for a month.
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