got to re think this...SB vs BB

Hmmmmm, with these new bests being thrown out there by NA smallblocks...im starting to rethink it....\

Congrats guys, got to respect doing a lot with a little !! Im starting to get nervous !\

In my best Christopher Walken impression: "Needs... more... nitrous!"

. Hold on not so quick.. in my opinion we are still lacking a Quality Block... I hear there's an aftermarket block that is getting better.. but I think there's a lot to be proven and verified with that

Although we have to congratulate those with new bests keep in mind track and weather conditions. I hear the conditions were great

You say that like it was a bad thing. LOL

I like running in good air and track conditions.

No doubt that the results being seen are impressive. I just don’t see why anyone would wait around for a questionable block for either big or small block when you can get a new, real MOPAR r5p7 block any day of the week for $1500.
Cheap heads capable of 400 cfm, 60 mm cam, deep skirt cross bolted mains, and 6 bolt head retention.
Get an 800 hp n/a 358” running engine with a belt drive, jesel rockers, dry sump, billet crank, etc... for $15000.
Put a stroked crank in it and see what happens!

Not at all but when comparing apples to apples you can’t compare an apple from the desert to one raised in Pa.

I wasn't comparing...........I was admiring.
That's all.
We might see mine shaft air in Mn. a couple times a season.
I hope I am there for it.

They are a decent value for what they are , but you are really limited by the architecture of the engines too.
Big strokes are not possible.
And changes to the package as finished for NASCAR are not cheap.
I would think they would be a good package for Comp. eliminator , and you don't see them there either........I sure haven't.

If i ever were to build another race motor, i would take a hard look at a stroked 6.4 gen3 hemi alky injected. With parts drying up for sb bb, it might be the best option unless you have deep pockets and want over 800 hp.

Time slips don't lie...the results are impressive who cares about the conditions. Lol

I'm impressed !

Top End Dragway in the fall....

I didn’t have my weather station set up last weekend... was a heads up deal so it didn’t matter much. I probably should have just because.... I know a friend set a new best at Famoso Saturday am with a -194 DA. I’m really looking forward to getting my junk fixed and get it to go down the track correctly.

I had my weather station at Irwindale MRM Sat. 2/23

12:44pm 68.5* 29.85"bar 26.8%hum 1065'da
2.10pm 70.3* 29.80" 22.3% 1207'
4.12pm 69.9 29.79" 27.6% 1247'

For us this is good.

The bargains with that platform have dried up. There are some really cheap R6/P8 deals out there, but no one is jumping on them.
A friend looked at doing a A/EA engine based on the R5/P7 platform, but no one was really interested. He sold the parts off, I've got the camshaft sitting here for one of my engines.

They work best in the 390-420 inch displacement, unreliable grenades over 420 , bellhousing can be an issue, there is a Quick time bellhousing for them(8082) which is designed for use a Jerico type bolt pattern , some work and you can get a TKO bolted up...parts are out there, but like the SBM, good blocks are starting to dry up.

FWIW ,
Best approach (in my opinion) to the G3 is get a short block (68226133AA-truck,68223196AB-SRT) for roughly 2900-3300 depending on dealer and what they want for core,the 392SRT short block from Rockauto is $2,910+$500.00 core so total of $3,405.79 with out core FWIW Summit is 4200ish.
Another 3-5k for heads and odds and ends for about 10K you can have a 550/650hp G3 Hemi , all NEW PARTS bracket/street engine obviously it can be done cheaper with used parts ...are there better cost option out there for the other Mopar engine platforms...yes there is but only your pocket book can answer what is the best long/short term option for you, Big HP #s from the G3 NA are out there , it's costly at this point , the development and money investment is about 20 years behind the other engine platforms

Could you give a recipe for a high end G3 and what kind of hp it would put out? 800hp?

I love seeing these NA small blocks fly. They sound nasty, and are totally impressive. What Brett has done with these heads and intakes is just incredible.HOWEVER, how many of these cars race weekly, have 250 runs on them ? ( i truely dont know, it seems to me only a handful are really out there making passes tho) I have a pretty fair idea, but, what is the REAL cost of building one of these ? Whitedart,( and maybe Brett, Andy and????) if you had to put a number to what it cost you, what would be fair and reasonable to throw out there, to ACTUALLY build one of these engines? Lets assume, that someone had to pay for all the block work ( assuming its a Ritter), heads, intake, modifications,pistons,coatings,cams, valvetrain,making parts that WILL fit, hand machining,( not deals with this guy or that gut either, straight up have to pay for stuff) and so on and so forth? Lets throw a real number out there. I am not on here enough to know who else runs one of these combos,other than what I see Brett working on, I kinda watch from another viewpoint so to speak.

Let me be VERY VERY clear, I love this stuff, I am not playing negative nelly here. I simply want to be 100% honest about what one of these would cost, and how much cost for maintenance and repairs, if it was raced in a weekly series, or weekly " quick something" or "index" series. I hope we see 10 more of these combos this year, my point is, its probably way out of line for most. To those that can and do, its great.Its a huge commitment, that only a few can and will make I think.Look forward to the guys who have done this, with real world numbers , time and experience, Congrats to the guys running these numbers, its impressive.Thanks.

I did my R-3 / W-9 about as cheap as you are going to , and it started in the " good old days ' when you could get blocks and stuff.
I stockpiled over a couple years and spread the cost out.
But I have 20k tied up in it if I have a nickel.

I watched one of our Moparts members try to weekly bracket race a well built lt W8 or W9 combo and he sold off everything because of required maintenance and breakage. When you push these combos to the required rpm for power things are going to break. Don’t get greeedy and if you are happy running upper 5’s in the 1/8 you can’t beat them. Another thing the guys struggle with is getting the convertor dialed in. I follow Brett on Facebook and see how many times these convertors are sent back for re-stall changes and these guys are just test n tune guys out making hits. I would like to see these cars try a big bracket race weekend. It’s not going to happen, trust me. I love small blocks especially at my age climbing around these cars doing everything 100% by myself so I’m a middle of the road type of guy because I love big blocks too

John and All Rights the converter statement is not completely true if you were looking for the last few hundreds they become very critical for the average guy not all that important Brett Miller struggles with his converter because he is doing something that is not common he has a very small motor and a heavy car that runs low eights that he foot breaks not an easy converter to build..

. my opinion good air bad air good track bad track a new best is a new best
. As you can see as mentioned above. Our killer air on the weather station was still close to a thousand feet . And yeah they actually prepped Irwindale. Also for the first time drag the surface

Now we have radial prep.. this is our new drag... we are so excited.. I have been racing at Irwindale since the day it opened and the only thing they've ever had was the good old fashioned broom so yes track conditions for us or excellent

I have an online link that I check often to see the conditions others are racing in as I would often be able to figure out how my car would be running in those conditions. I have to be able to do this because some some of the races I race at have one time trial for four days of racing. Some of these races start at 8am and go past 2am the next day. The air out there went from -200 or so up to 1100 but the killer humidity that we struggle to dial never affected you guys and when I oh see Facebook videos with guys in hoodies all day that’s a good thing too. Fast is fast but like me I said in one of these big block small block posts you have to compare 🍎 to apples 🍏. Now which post was this again as you are confusing this oldman. Lol 😂

I have often thought the same thing at times concerning weather track conditions Tailwinds and things like that what I will say is I haven't found the online. Weather stations very close at all for our local tracks.. it is nothing for them to be close to a thousand feet off at times.. course at the track sometimes from weather station to weather station there can be a bunch of change as well

I can remember being at Firebird raceway in Chandler, AZ when the first hand held weather station and ET predictors first came out back in around 1987 or so, a bunch of NHRA stock class racers where waiting in the staging lanes and most of them had them in their hands, one of them made a comment about the current D.A. and every one else looked down at theirs and it ended up varying from 1900 Ft. to 1300 Ft. in a ten foot circle
The couple I was helping got really upset that they all didn't match, I told them don't sweat the petty details, use yours for you tuning
Just like a tire gauge or timing light, don't loaded your good one out and don't worry about other racers numbers with their tire pressure or total timing with their timing light
I have seen a 4 MPH increase at LVMS with a tail wind blowing straight down the track instead of from across the track from early morning to early afternoon, from 123.+ MPH to 127.+ MPH

I just eclipsed the 180 pass on my mill.... 162 of those passes were 2 years ago when we finished 3rd in the NHRA Hot Rod Heritage Series out here on the west coast. My deal, with the help of Brian at IMM who screwed it together, was a fairly fast bracket car. It pretty much went 9.4’s to 9.9s depending on what tracks we went to. It was dynoed with his in house 1050, but I ended up putting a Braswell 4825 (4150 style). Last year I just didn’t get out... but as the car was sitting on stands in the garage, I started tinkering. I’ve had a mild build Lofgren 904 sitting here for over 20 years that we ran behind our iron head 360 (still have it.. back up plan). I had Lenny build a converter for it, pulled the 727 and swapped the Griner brake in the 904 in favor of my Pro Trans piece. I have another complete W8 mill and that one the 598 intake had been crudely adapted for a 4500 carb. I made some spacers, ground on it a bit to open the plenum up some and blend the 1” spacer. I then sent our old 1050 dominator to Thumper for some updates and got it running. First pass out of the box with things fairly soft it went on the bumper. I stayed in it and luckily didn’t unload the slicks. We got the car tamed some and left the track with a new best of 1.24 60, 5.91.... not too bad for a fridged Tucson with uncorrected baro of 26.8. DA was 3600 to 4000.... which isn’t too bad for that track.

Last weekend I decided to hit Irwindale for the first time... entered the 10.5 class just for kicks. I knew I was outgunned, but it was a chance to run there. Got a best of 5.79/117 shifting into 3rd still wheels up. I think we could get into the 5.6s if we get the car to go down the track... unfortunately we wheel stood hard and did some damage.... if I were smart, I’d fix it, and put the bracket package back together... too be continued...

I guess I don’t consider mine “fast” considering what a lot of these engines in the W8/9 circles do, but we have fun

Fixed your new PB Jay

Agreed!! Performance is Performance regardless of conditions.

How many cubic inches is your combo?

340! Says so right on the rear quarters!

Mine is a 9.20 deck R3 4” stroke 4.18 bore w/t one of Brett Miller’s top ends.... puts it right at 439. Along with brother Tubtar, I merely walked into parts and ordered a new R3 block... the end of an era!

I was going to wait until 200+ passes to inspect, but after last weekends “grand slam” I’ll probably tear into it. It’s really led an easy life until this past December

Who cares if its bigblock or smallblock as long as its Mopar I love it !! Ron

Not 800Hp, bet it's 2-3 day a week daily driver.
Clayton’s 426 1st version (*)
Hellcat block= $1400 from Steve White Motors (NEW)
Molnor 4.05 Crank =$ 930 +105 for ring (NEW)
Hemitronix VVT delete $550 (NEW)
Manley Rods 6.125 2-inch pin $650 (NEW)
Howards Cams Camshafts 786965-13 +$370 (NEW)
Lift: .625 In .600 Ex Dur@50 Intake 231 Ex 237
Lode Separation 113, IC 109 installed at 106
6.1 Intake and fuel rails $650 (Used)
Smith Bro Pushrods =$135 (NEW)
Diamond Pistons & rings =$ 840 (4.09 Bore 13+ CC dome) (NEW)
ARP Bolts, Head studs & mains $340+$160 (NEW)
PAC Titanium retainers =$225 (NEW)
PAC-1205X Valve Springs=$340 (NEW)
Manley valves (2.08/1.625) (New) = total $650
Clayton did his own port work on the heads.
Oil Pump Melling $165 (NEW)

(*) Total for above $6960.00 all prices were current 3/10/2017 this total does not include the 5.7 parts engine ($800)
Timing, valve covers and Eagle heads came from a 2012 5.7 that was purchased earlier it was going to be a 392Ci build originally but direction switched to the BGE block build.
Lifters are not included in above price.
The lifters were BBM no name link bar solid rollers I bought off eBay for $55, we removed the link bar, welded a pad on the inside just below the hole for the link bar anchor, drilled hole thru the body and welded pad, counter sunk the outside of the hole in the body ,installed a stainless rivet and machined the “exposed” part of the rivet in to a Keyway…IE Key lifter? Notched the block for the Key and obviously enlarged the stock lifter bore for the .824 dia to .904 dia
Price does not include any machine work, or balancing, in my opinion machine work pricing can turn in to apples to oranges discussion.
2010 Challenger@ 4100 Lbs. with driver this combo went a best of 9.97 @134 at Atco
10.21@ 131Mph was the average time and MPH of the 1st 30 runs put on this engine.
After 1100 miles and the 1st 30 runs with the Hemitronix VVT delete, I tore it down for inspection, I wasn’t happy with how the 1st cam bearing was wearing. Decided on a different approach to eliminate the VVT. Took a cam phaser removed the tone wheel, bought a timing chain set up for the Pre-eagle Hemi, Machined the back of the cam gear to accept the larger DIA of the VVT cam core, machined an Alum spacer to “move the Phaser Tone wheel in to alignment with the cam sensor. Ordered a Custom Grind from Comp cams Based on the Specs of the Howards cam. Car didn’t run any better of faster but we both felt more secure in the longevity of this engine, since the timing chain change another 25 runs and 6400 miles were put on the car.
Wallace Calculator says 710HP for the average 10.31s and a best of 760 based on the 9.97 MPH of 134.
Cam was updated last May to another custom Comp VVT, .654 intake .633 Exhaust 271/271@50 las is .004 intake and .008 exhaust, 6.1 intake was replaced with Drag pak intake and a sonny*S 8500 TB. stock rockers were replaced with Jesels off a Drag pak 6.1 I bought for parts. I sold them to Clayton for $1200. Last time we talked about cost, he figures there’s about 11k total, which includes the Hemitronix $550” experiment”.
Last year was a wash for track time, but this combo has roughly 7500 street miles on it since it was 1st installed back in late March of 2017. 90% of the runs were done on 93oct pump gas, the 9.97 run was on a 100oct tune,

I've done a few other G3 builds but this is the one that I know has some miles on it and the most runs of any other the others I've done, plus it used Eagle heads and still has Eagles on it, we never flowed the heads just simple 60 grit Intake finish some bowl work the exhaust port is high polished finish and uses a Nail head style valve.

Ill just ad one tidbit as to the conditions. We run an NA Smallblock all over the country. We have been as fast(actually a tad faster) back east in those hot humid conditions as we have out west. Two reasons one is the tracks are just better, second and more importantly we see higher barometer readings at all those tracks we have been to. We have been 8.0's in 142 water grains, which is typically triple what we see on a bad day put here. Heck Vegas at its worst is high 30's and typically single digit grains. The difference is we have NO barometer. Ever in California there is not much for barometer. My experience at Irwindale last weekend was about as high as I've seen the barometer outside of Sonoma on a great day or Mission. So just to ad some personal experience to the mix, no conjecture or speculation. We actually run in all those conditions. FWIW the NA 10.5 record is set every year in Bradenton. High barometer and good temps in a coupe week.

As for the smallblocks and how they run, no doubt they run well for sure. Like anything built for maximum all out NA racing they don't come cheap nor are they very long in the tooth. Its just a function of the environment they race in.

i love small blocks