BB bellt drive, who makes them besides Jesel?Update

I looked on summits site for our BB belt drives but could only find Jesels, who else besides them makes them
I'm putting together a pump gas street and strip motor roller cam motor for myself and I'm having problems with trying to use Cloyes (SP?) brand timing sets with the nine keyway crank gears and better timing chains
Any one else on here having the same problems with the cam bolts hitting the stock timing covers ?

I think Jessel is the only current manufacture of belt drives for a BB - on the cam bolts are you using the ARP 12 points? - I have used header bolts in the past and touched the face up with a belt sander. Only time I had an issue was when using the cam button retainer plate. With the cloyes it seams the gear is thicker

Racemaster Belt Drives

Belt Drive

There is someone selling them in the classifieds here

WOW $1,500. I think we are in the wrong business

Summit sells the Jesel set up for $1325
I agree on that price not being competive
I wonder if there is a whole sell warehouse (AKA W.D.) that sells their products at less than "List price' ?
Please post anything you know about this company and their products

The guy that used to do my motors at Opel Engineering told me that a customer brought one in for his motor. He said by the time he got done modifying everything to get it to fit he could've went and bought the Jessel and been ahead.

My price on the Jesel drive used to be around $800 but maybe the price has gone up. I haven't bought anything from them in a bit so I'm not sure if I'm still set up as a WD or not. Back when I was building more engines I was set up with a WD discount for a lot of parts. That really helped keep the prices down.

If the Australian piece has a belt tensioner, that would
be worth it over the Jesel, in my opinion.

I have the Jesel on my Hemi and it has a idler which I guess would be called a tensioner. I think I got mine from Marsh.

Raised cam Jesel Belt Drives have a tensioner.


What about Pro Gear timing chains?
http://www.progearweb.com/

I use the stamp steel Milodon front cover and it don't hit.

Actually
Mike Fielder who runs Australian Muscle Parts called me this week. He made the ones we sold a few years back. He has made numerous changes like making the cover billet instead of a casting. They should be available pretty soon ( a few weeks) and he said he would send pics and pricing which I can post when I get them.
Todd

Guys can get you a better deal than $1,300. I paid $1,100 for mine. If this is strictly because it's expensive, I wouldn't skimp on it. My .02

I ran an old Australian Muscle Parts belt drive. I felt like I was the R&D guy for him. I finally quit emailing and just made it work. Would like to see his come back just for some competition. As for the idler it is on ALL the raised cam BB Mopar Jesel. If you are patient they can be located from time to time, I will warn you if you buy a used one and it needs a belt or seals may as well buy new. They are quite proud of their stuff

That link is to an Australian website. It could be $1500 Australian Dollars which is less than $1100 US dollars.

The raised cam deal has the idler, mostly I suspect because there isn't a correct length belt that lets them use the same upper and lower as the standard. The funny thing is, the belts say DO NOT BACK BEND LOL..Which is exactly what an idler does.

Anyone remember the RINO jesel belt..? The belt to beat all belts. Put one on, cranked up the motor, and at idle SNAP!!!CLATTER CLATTER SCREECH HALT.

Those babies got may racers sideways with jesel.

Ive run my Australian one for over 10 years now. Only had to replace the cam seal once & a new belt for peace of mind. Id buy another no problem.

Rebel.....is that block a raise cam block? Reason I'm asking is you use the belt tensioner.

no, thats how they come standard.

The Aussie Belt drives ALL have idlers. Jesel is just the raised cam stuff

I have one on my small block........I bought it used , then started buying parts.
Yeah......if I do another motor with one , it will be new in box , from the manufacturer or distributor.
The set up I bought had the plate for a low deck small block , so I bought the backing plate too.
I didn't save a more than maybe 150.00 , but I got a solid understanding of how they want to go together and work. LOL

I decided to buy a new Mildon gear drive for this motor, it should be here by Friday, I hope
I've installed and race them as well as KB and Donovan gear drives, this current motor will have a little over 850 Lbs. over the nose and around 300 Lbs. seat pressure
Thanks to all of you for your help

Not a single thing wrong with that gear drive.

I have used them twice. They work ok a tad fiddly on install IMO but work fine. 850 on the nose is not a big deal. Try 1300+

Not this week, maybe next week
My new Intercomp valve spring tester does go up to 1400 Lbs.

was talking to Mike from 'Strayln Muscle parts today, said he is almost ready to release the new version of his belt driove for BBM's. we had a good talk & the new unit is going to have big improvements over the original. He's hoping the production will start in the next few months & hopefully priced better than the Jesel. He tells me Todd will probably be one of his dealers. watch this space

Thanks for the heads up

He send me a pic of his new Ford unit, said his new Mopar one will look similar.

Have never ran a belt drive but will be on my next engine. With that said is there a benefit with the idler. I know many of you have lots of experience with this stuff so I figured I will get the straight scoop.

Looks great overall. Do you know if it will it accept a cover for some street use?

The only reason to run the Idler from those pics is because there is not a belt that is an exact fit, the pulley takes up the slack. This single idler method also can change timing, that is why the cam pulley is adjustable, it compensates for any tightening or loosening of the belt. Its not a bad design, it has been proven on tens of thousands of accurate 3 axis milling machines to drive the spindle. Tim

Thanks for the answer

Going to be completely honest, what are the advantages of the belt drive? Will you really see the horsepower per dollar?

There are a lot of advantages for a serious race engine. Not so sure that power is one of them.

I building a rather serious street car engine. I've looked at them, just hard to justify the expense. Especially since no one can give me any proven reasons.

Jesel belt drives, just like Jesel rocker arms are used on serious race engines. You can put them on a street car just for show, but they are designed for hardcore applications. Anytime I build an engine that is going to get beat on hard I use a belt drive. It is a good way to solve a bunch of issues at the front of the engine.

100’s if not 1000’s of 8 second passes with my Mopar big blocks running roller timing chains with zero issues. Some get caught up in tricks, some don’t. Spend YOUR money wisely.

I've used a Jesel belt drive on one motor so far, I wasn't really impressed with it hence the choice on the gear drive for this current street motor.
To bad Cloyes has now goofed up all the better BB Mopar timing sets
Setting up a single idler gear drive can be a pain but it way better than breaking a timing chain in two or three years of street use or a belt

This engine will produce 950 to 1000 hp. Its pump gas brother made 864 with a bad carb and undersized headers. So were arent talking mild bracket car. I just cant see the justification of the dollars.

If I was building a 1000 hp big block I'd step up to the good parts including a belt drive, Jesel rocker arms, premium rotating assembly and premium valve springs. The 514 race engine I had was set up that way and it worked great for many years. They cost more to build when use the premium parts but once you build one that way you'll understand why engine builders prefer to use the good stuff.

The RPM and valve spring pressures have a lot to do with my decision making, my next all out race motor will get the Jesel belt drive I have sitting on the shelf now, that 555 C.I. Koleno block with a set of B1-MC heads and either a set of Jesel 1.7 ratio paired rocker steel arm set up or a set of T&D set up like the Jesel set up in steel also. The last time I talked to the current parts tech at Jesel a year and 1/2 ago told me they don't make or sell any BB Mopar paired shaft rocker set ups for Indy 440-1 in steel, he didn't have a answer when I told him the part # for the current set of 1.55 ratio steel rocker arm paired shaft set up I have on my other back up bracket motor with those heads that came with the steel Jesel paired shaft rocker arm set up
T&D does offer them and will make them when you place the order

For me has nothing to do with tricks.
The shop doing my machine work and assembly likes them not a deal killer where they would turn the work away if I don't want the belt drive(its not a money deal for them either as like my crank and rods I will have the set up).
If I'm not comfortable with this shops methods and recommendations then I should go elsewhere. Not the shops words but mine. I have decided in the past to take work to a different shop when I did not like what I was hearing.
Lastly I have not had much luck with any of the current timing sets. And that is in low hp (500-600 hp) set ups. So why would I think it will be better in a high hp set up.
I do appreciate everyone's comments. We have a great board where lots of people contribute good imformation

I do really appreciate the information. I've never been given any data on them, other than the expense. I've heard the argument about harmonics, but if that was a big concern the gear drive would be a disaster. I don't believe that we cheated out on any of the parts with this build, it has titanium valves and t&d rocker gear. Another concern with the belt, as this will be a driven car, how dirt and grime will affect belt wear.

I have to confess.........the show and tell factor was a powerful motivator for me.
It is a stout street motor and gets used with a heavy foot and a strong disregard for traffic laws.
It will finally see some track time this season.
I tried to do it on the cheap , buying used.
Mine is a Ritter on an R block.......there wasn't much cheap about this deal anyway.
Should have just sprung for the new one , because at the end of the trail I wasn't far from that price.

If I was building a killer SB engine I'd use a belt drive too just so I could use a belt drive distributor. I hate that rear mount distributor in the SB. I don't even like the 45 degree distributor in a BB. When I was building race engines I always put a belt drive distributor on just because it was so much nicer to work with.

I belt drive is always a good idea, for those who want the best and plan to actually try an make their car run as hard a possible. If you are a guy who screws or has stuff screwed together plugs it into the car and just runs it then by all means just use a timing chain. If you want the best use the best. If not then don't. I love those ads where people say "the best of the best" used to build. Then see things like timing chains, shelf pistons and eagle cranks. If you want the ultimate in adjustability and less variations in cam timing with BIG springs then use a belt. If you want rock solid timing that will not bounce around, then run a belt drive distributor, if not then don't. It really is just that simple.

i like the looks of the tensioner pulley, if you have a block that has been align honed more than once the crank to cam distance can be a challenge getting a timing chain the right length

Dead right there. my block got line bored so i bought a seal that was 0.040 bigger on the outside diameter & had my Housing machined to match the new centerlines. Too easy.

I could't afford it when I first built my motor but added one and a belt distributor at a freshen up. Trust me if you can afford it, its worth it...
BBM uses the same belt as a BBC fyi

I hope they don’t cheap out on the bushing or bearing in that small tensioner wheel. I’ve seen what can happen if and when that thing siezes up at the high speed it will be going.

That is what I have noticed in my street strip car. WHat was once solid timing is not anymore.

Will my engine be all top of the line. No but better than average. Yes anything can fail but I fell better putting a Callies crank and Oliver rods in my KB than I would eagle or 440 Source. Not bashing either as I have ran them with success. Everything has its place.

Nothing I've read here has been informative as to why. All I'm seeing is that if you want to show how big your "wallet" is, it's the part to buy. A $20 hooker in a $1000 dress is still the same beast. I see a few guys here that assume that if you don't own one you are just running cheap junk. I assure you we didn't build a n/a 864 hp pump gas engine on cheap parts. The parts were selected very carefully, but not on the premises that just because it cost more, that it must be the best part. That's the way the government and unions work, and we don't cotton to that mindset.

If someone could give me back to back test proving hp or reliably/ longevity that would be something completely different, just not pure opinion.

A belt drive can isolate damaging harmonics.

Years ago my buddy had a small block chevy 9 second vega. He started cracking blocks on a regular basis. Ended up That harmonics were being transmitted to the cam causing bad stuff to happen. Don't know if he was running a gear drive or chain at that time.

The belt drive totally solved the problem.

Thought its been covered. Better harmonics and less deflection of cam timming with BIG springs. Now if you are a typical bracket racer, or a plug and play racer then by all means stick to a chain and save your money.

Do your own testing. Get your good ole timing chain and bolt it to a decently sized camshaft. Measure for yourself the deflection then use a belt and do the same. It aint rocket science.

When I added the belt I also went from SS valves to Ti. since those changes I have not broke a valve spring. prior to I had broken 3 different springs all around 80 passes even though they tested ok. Therefore I can't personally give you a back to back justification. Like its been mentioned the belt distributor is much more accurate especially coupled with the larger cap.

You have already made it pretty clear you don't want one This post was made to see what options were available besides Jesel...

Your logic is like your timing........could stand a little advancing.
All I'm seeing is resentment because someone bought something you didn't.
You make assumptions about the decisions of others with less information than Stevie Wonder would have after reading this thread.........there were replies that explained the " why " of a belt in this thread if you would have taken the time to read them.
Show and tell was part of my decision.....I copped to it.
What I didn't explain because I figured it was obvious is that with the standard babbitt cam bearing journals , I am relegated to running a smaller diameter billet with my cam. i.e. greater possibility of transferring harmonics to the valve train and increased spark scatter through the general sloppiness of a chain after use.
I still drive the oil pump off the back of the cam , and that is not ideal , but it is what I have.
If I had your money , I would have just wrote a check and had the cam journals punched out for a 60 m.m. billet , had the lifter bores bushed instead of using the fixture and figuring out how to drill as small a hole as possible with the M.P. kit , bought a new belt drive and probably paid someone to put it all together.
I don't think I would have made stupid assumptions about what others did or why they did it.

If you can't find anyone to give you the answer you want then I'm sure a shop will be happy to run a series of dyno tests for you.

Looking forward as always to see the ET’s and weights of all these tricked out engines. Fancy timing belt, distributors, fat cams, vacuum pumps, etc, etc. I’m so excited I don’t think I will be able to sleep. I’m getting bored to death with dyno stories. Lol 😂

Belt drive ended up last here, but scored high in the fact that it was easiest to service.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0510-camshaft-drive-comparison/

Machinist in town here has a 7 second car that had a fixed idler gear drive and he tried a belt drive to see what the hype was and his car lost a little 60 ft time. Put the gear drive back in and the car ran like it used to. His thought was the belt was stretching on launch and changing the timing.

WHOPPS

But wait a minute.........
Centerline 101 103 105 107
Peak HP 633.5 633.0 644.6 645.3
Peak TQ 590.6 594.2 594.3 591.9
Average HP 510.1 510.7 512.7 511.9
Average TQ 551.1 551.9 553.3 552.4

So ease of cam centerline adjustments are worth something ?
Now , try a belt driven distributor.
Truth be told , the differences appear to be small.
But the slack jawed pointing I see when I open my hood on cruise night are worth something.
I don't have dyno numbers , and I don't have a time slip yet.
So I will have to be satisfied with those little amusements.

So a belt drive with an idler would solve that issue?

Rubber belt would still stretch either way. All the idler would do is keep the belt from flapping around.

The wear on the belt and gears on the dyno and the slop of the belt stretching while moving the cam on the dyno got me concerned
That being said I will use the Jesel belt drive I have now with their distributor drive on my next all out N/A race motor with a crank trigger

So $1800 for a couple of extra horses going with a Jesel belt drive according to the chart.

A couple less horsepower than the chain. Lol 😂

The advantage of a belt drive is removing the harmonic transfer between the crank and the valve train - also a belt will outlast a chain - every chain I have had stretches after a season - belt will last around five years before changing it out for maintenance. I agree there is no real HP gain going belt drive just more accuracy of cam timing and stability.

Has there been a proven study with actual data to reflect the difference?

You mean besides every high end race motor from NASCAR to Pro Stock , to Competition Eliminator to etc. etc.
Because we all know what a bunch of camp followers those people tend to be.
What do you think ?

To each their own. Use whatever your budget allows or your preference is. The OP asked about belt drives and what was out there. If you are uncomfortable using expensive parts you feel are not necessary then don't do it.

Amazing to me how many here will gladly share their thoughts that don't pertain to the questions at hand. Yet will happily take the opportunity to belittle, or take pot shots at anyone who does not use what they use. Yet often those same folks have never tried the parts they are belittling. I compare it to my kids when they were young and said they did not like a certain food yet had never tried it, so how can they have a qualified opinion on the subject. Just food for thought..

Some of us say that we are open minded but really are we. When I post something I love seeing both pro’s and con’s. Especially if I can save a buck or two. Many get wrapped up and join the me too crowd to be cool and look like a real racer. Some in this post even admitted to it. I’m going to point this question to Al. If we didn’t post the results that we have had with lesser, cheaper products would we we helping or not helping those on the fence that are also curious. And I think that most of these posts would dry up in a day or two and the original poster would end up getting less info.

Differences between building all out/max effort pieces VS bracket pieces. Everything has a place, OP asked about belt drives. Not are they better than chains or gear drives. But about belts and whast out there. He seems to be having an issue with Cloyes chains as well.

As I say each design has its place and function. Im not going to waste money on a belt when a chain will work just fine. Lower open spring pressures, street/strip type stuff why bother, but that was not the question. This became a pissing match over some people perceptions about those who use a Belt from what I see, from those who have never run one. You wanna run a timing chain on an engine like mine by all means go for it. Don't think you will find many people recommending them with spring pressures of 1400+ open, and as much on the seat as most have in their bracket cars over the nose. The question was about belt drives. I have used both of the available brands, Jesel and Australian Muscle Parts versions, as well as chains and gear drives. I prefer the Jesel over the rest. But I also understand they have their place and are not meant for all. I hope the Australian Muscle Parts one will be better than last time and come in at a lesser price. They will have their place just like every other cam drive choice out there.

well said Al, I kinda notice this post wondered off from its original direction. I had reopened it after talking with Mike from 'Straylin Muscle parts & I forwarded the pics he sent me, just so Cab who started this would be in the loop for whats going to be available, but yeah, this post went down hill a bit from there. Just glad we have sensible folk like you to steer this thread back to where it should have been in the first place.

Rebel, I really hope the newest version of the Aussie belt drive works out. I felt like a guinea pig last time for the design. In the end it worked fine but a lot of back and fourth and parts replacement to get there. I am sure the new one will have all that worked out and once done I had no issues with he one we ran.

Same here Al. I wish it had come with instructions re:torque figures etc... but once we had a handle on it, it worked out fine. Mike will hopefully e-mail me when they're ready, i'll post back on here when i hear.

I hope it comes with a cover option for street strip use.