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Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet

Posted By: Lifsgrt

Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/17/19 10:38 PM

Anybody here using the Pipemax app, or other software to build headers? I have a coupke recommendations from Koeffel's Place, but since it is an endurance application and kind of odd I'd like to run the numbers. Mr_P_Body Mike offered a while back, but I didn't have the numbers I needed at the time and he hasn't been on here in several weeks, hope he is ok.
If you can and care to help, please let me know. Thanks, Jerry -numbers below

volumetric efficiency if known -unknown, but estimating 105%? Your guess is probably better than mine.
bore 4.500
stroke 3.915
rod length 6.7"
compression 14.9:1
peak hp rpm - hasn't run, say 7500+-
valve diameter 2.40 Ti Int, 1.78 Ex
valve stem diameter .3142"
valve lift .879 Int @1.75, .850. Ex @ 1.70 T&D rockers
duration @ .050 282 Int, 303 Ex
LSA 114
degreed center line 112
flow of the heads
Lift.  L/D    Int.   
.500  .208.   357    
.600. .250.   394   
.700. .292.   425   
.800. .333.   443   
.900. .375.   454    
1.0.  .417.   456
Lift.  L/D.   Ex
.500.  .281.  243
.600.  .337.  274
.700.  .393.  299
.800.  .449.  312
.900.  .506.  319
1.0.   .562.  336
exhaust port length of head- 2 7/8" measured as far into the port as I can get a tape measure past the valve stem to the far side of the pocket, to the bottom of the port exit as installed.
Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 12:01 AM

I'm thinking the RPM will be more like 8000+ Jerry. What do Pete and Chuck say? They would know. It looks like a great combo.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 01:03 AM

I have your info, but can't make it small enough to post. What measures do you need?
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 01:20 AM

Here ya go. Didn't know your ex centerline length, so 3.2 is the default.

Attached picture Scan_20190117 (3).png
Attached picture Scan_20190117 (4).png
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 04:02 AM

Hey Tom, they said I'm overthinking it...they gave me some sizes and lengths and set build them and they would be fine.
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 04:12 AM

Thanks Mopar Dave, really appreciate your time. Is that Pipemax software or something else? Hope those hp numbers are a little pessimistic, I was hoping for 950hp+ with good tq numbers. I should know sometime this year! The numbers are about the same as Koeffel's team provided...guess they've done this before!
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 04:19 AM

Mopar Dave, couple more questions. What constitutes a "tuned" collector? I am considering a merge collector into a straight exit (non-megaphone) vs a formed straight collector. Also, do you kmow if the collector has to be straight, or is it only the length and diameter that is critical? I want to do side exhaust old school NASCAR style to help deflect some air around by rear wheel openings with the tips just behind the door openings. Trying to break a 237.3+ mph record. Thanks.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 05:10 AM

Someone here knows more about that than I, but merge collectors need to be tuned to your combo on a dyno. I tried some $600 merge collectors once without dyno tuning and found nothing on my slip. Those things sure are not cheap. oh yeah pipemax
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 07:35 AM

Thanks, I was tracking the same about having to be tuned significantly to your combo. Man, they are cool looking though (when you are under the car to see them)!
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 08:46 AM

How about using a set of boom pipes off of a NASCAR cup car? scope
I wouldn't run them both out the same side though like NASCAR does tsk whistling grin
I still haven't got to go watch at Bonneiville yet work Let me know if your going and maybe I can come watch for a couple of days luck
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 03:07 PM

I think I've said this before but this is a nice build and I appreciate you sharing everything. Also, I think you choose a good builder, one of the worst things you can do is veer off the course of what the 'team' your working with is guiding you on IMO. I'd trust what they told you to spec dimensionally for tubes. I also think given the parts you are listing that, the power will be well above 1000HP. I'm really eager to see the plumbing on these...If they are class legal you may do better with a fender exit collector.
Posted By: jwb123

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 06:03 PM

I have built several headers using pipemax software, it works really well. If you have the room and take the time, I see improvements by building the step headers. I like fenderwell style headers because it makes stuff easy to work on, so I just choose a longer harmonic, and again it always makes good power. I personally have had good luck on my drag car with the old style Hedman 4 into 2 into 1 style collectors which make more low rpm rang torque. My racing buddies made fun of my old school collectors so I tried some of the merge style and the car slowed down. I would think on a land speed car you would want just a good 4 into 1 standard style collector. And on the projected HP numbers, most of the engines I build come up at the average HP number generated by pipemax. I also use performance trends engine software and it hits within 10% error when I dyno the engines.
Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 06:12 PM

Originally Posted By jwb123
I have built several headers using pipemax software, it works really well. If you have the room and take the time, I see improvements by building the step headers. I like fenderwell style headers because it makes stuff easy to work on, so I just choose a longer harmonic, and again it always makes good power. I personally have had good luck on my drag car with the old style Hedman 4 into 2 into 1 style collectors which make more low rpm rang torque. My racing buddies made fun of my old school collectors so I tried some of the merge style and the car slowed down. I would think on a land speed car you would want just a good 4 into 1 standard style collector. And on the projected HP numbers, most of the engines I build come up at the average HP number generated by pipemax. I also use performance trends engine software and it hits within 10% error when I dyno the engines.

I agree that pipe is a good tool but, I haven't reviewed the inputs to know that it is giving an appropriate 'output' but at a glance I noticed it recommended 2" initially...that is too small!...also I noticed AT A GLANCE that it is only predicting a peak of 925ish HP and that is IMO, not accurate.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 06:36 PM

If you input a larger volumetric efficiency number you will get bigger hp numbers, but then how accurate is that? If we only knew the correct VE numbers to input to start I think the output numbers would be more accurate. junk in junk out.
Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 07:19 PM

I agree with most everything said here. You will make over 1000HP easily, just up in the RPM range, 8000 and above. Volumetric efficiency is everything and I don't have my dyno sheets available right now but would be willing to share what my stuff has done in the past. The guys that are building your engine are top drawer from everyone I know that build high end engines so listen to them as pointed out. I would think for a land speed application that merge collectors would be a waste of money but you also know people that would know. Most of us on this site are drag racers and that's a totally different dynamic than having a few miles to get up to speed. I'm thinking with the right tune up, you will break records.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 07:37 PM

I’ve never used that program, but I’d try tweaking the inputs of VE and peak rpm until the predicted flow requirements get closer to the actual head flow.
The current read out is only looking for a head flow capacity that’s 50cfm lower than what’s available.

Based on the old superflow formulas, a 499 with heads that flow in the 440 range should be able to peak in the 8400-8800 range.

Using the 387cfm number the program spit out puts the estimated peak at 7400-7800.
Posted By: jwb123

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 08:25 PM

garbage in garbage out. If you have the head flow numbers, pipemax has a calculator to predict volumetric efficiency. which helps get the numbers closer. I mainly use it to predict header tube length as the program calculates the resonance of the gasses, which plays a big part in tuning the headers to the cam and intake to make them work together. 1000 hp is around 2 hp per cubic inch for the combo mentioned, you have to have all your ducks in a row to make that level of power. Again all the computer programs made are just tools to help you get the combo close. Then time on a dyno gets it better, then the race track tuning gets it as good as it can get. I personally have never made 2 HP per cubic inch with out some dyno time and changing a few parts and playing with cam timing.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 08:28 PM

Like I said........ never used the program....... but the head flow numbers are in the first post.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 11:28 PM

If I use your max flow number(454) PM shows 124.37VE and 1138hp/848.9tq.
If I use 425/.700"lift PM shows 118VE and 1065hp/812tq
If I use 394/.600 lift PM shows 111.24VE and 987hp/758tq
Looks like pipe diameter is 2" with the 394 flow and 2.146 with 454 flow number.
Hope that helps. If ya have a specific VE number let me know. Only takes a minute.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/18/19 11:47 PM

Just noticed at the bottom of your page ex port length. I don't see well any more. I'll rerun some numbers later and see if they change with the longer port. I don't expect them to change much. They didn't on my head.
Posted By: Dave Hall

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/19/19 02:51 AM

At only 7,200 rpm. you really aren't getting into where a finely tuned header will make that much difference. I would build a nice set of 2-1/4 to 2-1/2 step. You could even do like funny car double wall to keep the heat out of the car. You can make 240mph with a 2.95 rear ratio, (tranny 1.00 I presume) 33" tire, according to Wallace. Doesn't the car weigh more than 4,000 lbs.? At your level of play, drag coefficient is really where it's at. More hp on the salt will create more tire spin if it's fighting a brick wall.
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/19/19 04:07 AM

Ran your numbers again with(394 flow)= 111.24 VE and 8000rpm.
1071hp/765tq calling for a 2.182-2.307" tube 25.9-28.9 long.
HP/CI=2.51
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/19/19 04:44 PM

Hey Dave, does the program show the same numbers if you change the rpm to 8000 or 8500? Might need to turn the pump faster to make hp. Thanks
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/20/19 09:28 AM

Hey guys,thanks for all the feedback, I really appreciate it. I've decided to go with a two-step 2 1/4" to 2 3/8" with a 4" collector. The AlterKtion (to get rid of torsion bars and free space for the dry sump pump) should arrive next week, so I can get going on the headers. I hope to get the headers and dry sump together and stop by Best Machine on the way home to hear this beast sing! Then we'll know what it makes! Today is day 17 of the build, I've replaced inner and outer rockers, trans crossmember, and all four frame rails so far. Floor is obviously still out, and I got one wheelhouse out today with fresh one mocked in place. Finally getting something done on it! Thanks again!
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/20/19 09:31 AM

What car year and body style are you going to run on the salt flats?
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/20/19 11:11 PM

OK, using 8500rpm target with same 111.24 VE/394 flow gets you 2.236-2.361 tube size 25.2-28.2 length. Collector length 13.8 or 6.9. Collector Dia 4.204-4.704 AVG HP 1156/769 TQ, HP/CI 2.321
Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 02:12 AM

I'm going to guess 1080-1100HP@8200RPM.
Posted By: 440GTX

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 05:58 AM

I run 2 1/4 to 2 3/8s with a 4 inch merge collector on my 632 600-13 xxx headed motor
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 08:55 AM

Hey Cab, I'm planning to make Speed Week in August, touch base with me before to confirm. Definitely something a car guy should do before he pops the 'chute!
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 08:57 AM

I'd certainly be happy with that Tom!
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 08:59 AM

Hey Dave, can you hang that 8500rpm data or send it to me? I would like to se ethe rest of the numbers. It looked like you were describing a two step header, thanks.
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 09:00 AM

440GTX, what power and torque is that monster making?
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 04:56 PM

here ya go

Attached picture 499 exhaust (2).png
Posted By: 440GTX

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By Lifsgrt
440GTX, what power and torque is that monster making?


1240 hp and 920 ft pounds of torque
Posted By: n20mstr

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/21/19 08:20 PM

Originally Posted By 440GTX
Originally Posted By Lifsgrt
440GTX, what power and torque is that monster making?


1240 hp and 920 ft pounds of torque



SHOW OFF!!


I was going to respond to this, but im not LOL



Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/22/19 03:55 AM

Hey Cab, building a 1969 Daytona clone for the task. I'm in Buckley, WA, come on up and have a look!
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/22/19 03:57 AM

That's certainly stout 440GTX, thanks. How did you determine what type merge collector to go with, or did you just pick what you wanted? Do you have comparison with non-merge collectors by chance?
Posted By: 440GTX

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/22/19 04:32 AM

I always run a merge chuck from best machine helped me with the tubing size and talked to couple of other guy pretty much came up with the same thing
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/22/19 09:05 AM

Thanks again Dave!
Posted By: mopar dave

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 01/22/19 03:18 PM

thumbs
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/11/19 04:35 AM

Finished my first set of headers a while back. 2 1/4" to 2 3/8" with 4" collectors. Just sent them to Jet Hot for coating!

Attached picture 0301191026.jpg
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/11/19 04:41 AM

Right side. This one removes with only removing a couple of the plugs. Driver's side requires removing steering column and starter, plus a couple plugs. At least I don't have to move the engine!

Attached picture 0222191650.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/11/19 04:49 AM

If you do a couple of things to them you will save them from cracking..
cut each tube where they are tied together and drill one of the 2 holes
on each tube a little bigger(doesnt matter what size hole).. that way they
can grow with the heat( they will expand so they need to slide a bit)
or they worp .. looks good.. I built a ton of headers at Chrysler
EDIT
this is a set I built for my W-9.. totally equal on all tubes
wave

Attached picture W9_4.jpg
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/12/19 01:36 AM

Mr P Body, you're saying cut the flange between the tubes?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/12/19 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Lifsgrt
Mr P Body, you're saying cut the flange between the tubes?


Yes I am.. after you trim them up nicely then drill one bolt hole a little
larger per tube
wave
Posted By: Dave Hall

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/12/19 03:00 AM

Mr. P! Check out those flanges he's using. I wouldn't cut them. Elongate the holes and be done. The only time I have cut flanges is for ease of R&R. Nice job Lifsgrt!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/12/19 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Hall
Mr. P! Check out those flanges he's using. I wouldn't cut them. Elongate the holes and be done. The only time I have cut flanges is for ease of R&R. Nice job Lifsgrt!


Still gonna need to cut them.. they may worp in those areas or not..
but if you cut them that guarantees that they move.. just needs the
bigger hole in each tube
wave
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/12/19 05:19 AM

Do you think the collectors need to be that long for that motor and the racing your doing?
What are your plans for the operating range in RPM for that motor off of the push car?
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/31/19 07:32 PM

Thanks Dave!
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/31/19 07:35 PM

Hey Cab, I had not cut the collectors in these pics and they were still 18" long. I cut them at 13.4" from the ends of the tubes based on Pipemax data and other input I received prior to shipping them to Jet Hot for coating. It will be interesting to see how much steam this engine makes with my first effort at headers!
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 03/23/20 05:14 PM

Hey guys, update on my 498" Bonneville bullet using THE Block. I cut the collectors to 13.4" and had them Jet Hot coated. Finally got it on the dyno at Best Machine. This endurance build with a single Quick Fuel Dominator made 947hp at 7400rpm and 690tq at 6800rpm through my first time built 2 1/4"-2 3/8"-4" collector stepped headers that fit inside the frame rails of my Daytona clone. I now wish I'd have gone with the recommendation of a 4 1/2" collector. Engine ran better with a 4" to 5" adaptor on the collector. I tried 4" extensions at 54" long in hopes of getting the exhaust out from under yhe car for speed runs and it killed 35 hp. Will try 5" extensions and see if that works.
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 03/26/20 06:29 AM

Dyno info.

Thanks again for the input, I appreciate it. Got the flanges, collectors, and other tubing bits and pieces from http://www.spdexhaust.com/ They have custom flanges that fit these Brodix B1 MC heads very well.

Attached picture Dyno Chart 498 Sept 2019.jpg
Attached picture Dyno sheet Sept 2019 498.jpg
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 03/26/20 11:59 PM

I enjoyed this topic! wave
Posted By: Hemi Allstate

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 03/27/20 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by 440Jim
I enjoyed this topic! wave



iagree Cool project and goals ! beer

Mark
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 03/27/20 02:47 AM

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the car ran faster with longer collector extension instead of a lot shorter one scope
All the 4 speed cars I drag raced ran quicker and faster with longer collectors, which wasn't suppose to work up shruggy work
Take a set along and test them if and when you can up twocents
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 04/10/20 08:55 PM

Will definitely check that out, thanks!
Posted By: Spode

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 04/11/20 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by 440Jim
I enjoyed this topic! wave
Posted By: n20mstr

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 04/11/20 01:16 PM


how long are the primary tubes ?
Posted By: Lifsgrt

Re: Headers for my 499" B1MC headed Bonneville bullet - 05/31/20 03:10 AM

2 1/4" x 9"
2 3/8"× 17"
4" collector 13.4" long. In retrospect I should've went with a 4 1/2" colle tor.

Also, after engine shop spec d a 1250 Dominator, I spoke with BRE and sent them my 1150 Dominator for modification. Bob Book thinks that will work better. With the new 1250 QF, peak tq was 690 @ 6800-6900, peak hp was 947 @ 7400-7500, which Bob and others think should be further apart.
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