Dart SB Mopar Blocks

I spent a couple hours with Richard Maskin yesterday and asked about a small Block Mopar block, right now there is NO possibility of doing one????? Maybe the new company that owns Dart will have to put feelers out there to see????

If I owned Dart I'd do a cast iron low deck big block with 440 mains. I'd design the block to be run at 4.50 bore x 4.25 stroke. I'd also invest in a few matching low deck intakes. Then I'd sit back and take orders.

I wouldn't invest a dime into making SB parts.

The small blocks would sell more than the big blocks I believe.

Bob Book would disagree with you.

With turbos and such, a 400ish inch SB will compete with most everything under the big bore space hemi and the 481X stuff.

On small tires, the SB would be easier to tune, lighter and take up much less space in the engine bay.

Won't happen though. I suspect the Ritter is close enough that 1-2 more iterations and the block would work. Look how much farther ahead the Ritter block is than the Dart, which is just an idea right now.

With the supply of Magnum blocks out there in yards, I'd guess it'll be another decade before there is a business case the aftermarket can make work.

Who knows, by that time us small block guys may largely have gone Gen III leaving a tinier space for aftermarket LA blocks.

Comparing a magnum block to a race block is like comparing an anchor to a pillow. It's rediculous.

personally I think it's more like comparing a cast iron block to a plastic mock up block..

As much as I like the G3 Hemi, reality is if there was availability of new race blocks at a competitive price to the Factory BGE block, the small block is going to be the 1st choice for a max effort build.
it's narrow, more after market parts, Cams , rocker systems more used aftermarket parts. better header to chassis fit. Weight is about the same as the G3 but lets face it there are more proven combinations for the SBM.

Our problem is number one guys are cheap. Not just Mopar guys but most racers. Number two the factory stock LA block is strong enough to run 9.50’s-10.0’s at 3000 pounds and most aren’t even pushing them to that point. Why spend 5000.00 for a block for cars running slower than they are already capable of.

Yep, making money VS. making horsepower, can't debate that one.
Business vs. "Passion".

By now everyone knows a small block mopar can run it's @$$ off.
Often times harder than most anything else comparable.

But, try selling parts for them + comparable parts for other Mopar engines for 20+ years or so. I found out real quick, Big block parts far outsell small block parts. Doesn't matter what the commodity is. Even Gen 2 426 hemi parts outsell small block. At one time i believed it might change over time....but the market has shown me it has not.

As may be. The market will decide though, not some dude who can't/won't spell properly but uses cute similes.

Exactly.
Trick Flow is coming to market with Small block heads and intake. I doubt they figured wrong.
Bunch of small block haters on here sometimes

I've got a NOS Siamese 59 degree (Siamese 340 replacement) sitting at home next to my tractor doing me no good. It will go up for sale pretty soon, I just need to set aside few hours to get out there,jockey stuff around, and blow the dust off it. It's been hard to find the time with other projects and the rest of life happening. Need max exposure so, all I can say is keep an eye on eBay.

I’ll give you 200.00 for it.

Some of the fastest Mopar door cars I have seen at our track are smallblocks built with W series heads.

$250 and a standard bore 340 core block.

Cheap skate! I'll give $300, shipped.

Bidding starts at fitty cent.

What exactly did I spell incorrectly? Also, I don't smile, why would I use one in a post?


I stand by what I said. A magnum block is not a race block, nor will it ever be a race block.

I'm it at 500.00 and I'll pay the shipping.

I’m out!!!

Honest question....What is a Saimese 340? Casting from Thailand?

WTH??? That was easy! Ar you REALLY that cheap?

I'll go 6 fitty.

It's like Thai stick, man....

Like that stuff, that's tied to a stick.

It's like that.

https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/s...p;storeId=10001

Lol. I’m a budget racer but I’m not that cheap. I would love to have a Ritter block to back up my R3 but a set of Victor heads may be next on my plate. I just raised slightly over 4000.00 selling a few things and probably will be listing a couple thousand more.

I'm telling you the Ritter blocks I have are nice but haters are going to hate.

As I said when this all came out and Dart was in the process of being sold. Don't hold your breath for them to do a block for a Mopar. It is a great idea and these is a market for it but cant see a group of investors, which is who purchased Dart to even care about undertaking a new design with such a limited market

Yup. The buyers are going to want their ROI up front and making parts with a might sell small volume deal won't do that.

Built it and they will come.

Funny how the guy talking smack about the other guys spelling has spelling errors of his own in the very post he made fun of the other guy.

Starts out as a V16 and they have to cut it in half. That's what I heard.

How about if Dart just made some good iron hemi and wedge blocks? We KNOW that is a good market. Just buy the tooling from Mopar and get to work. Everybody wins! Mopar gets to ignore it and Dart can make some money. We get blocks we can use. Simple but will happen when pigs fly. hey I actually saw a rather large pot belly pig running up the road this afternoon. Not sure who he belonged to but he looked well fed....In my part of the world he will be BBQ before dark running around loose like that>

If the block isn't race ready, per any application and cost less than $1500.00 you won't sell nearly as many as one might think.

I'd rather have unfinished bores, the decks as tall as I can get them, the lifter bores finished about .020 under...stuff like that. Chrysler guys won't pay $3000.00 (or more) for a block and do any finish work. Hell, I want the mains .005 under minimum.

Well then make your make your matching end tables into running usable horsepower and get back to us!

You guys are dreaming if you think Dart is going to make a SB Mopar block. Maskin said as much during the Q&A at EM.
If you want a SB race block, it's Mopar or Ritter, period.
Now the company that has a vested interest in making a block, owns a foundry and is capable, would be Edelbrock...but when Chevy 409 heads take precedence over the Mopar Victor heads and pushed them back years, good luck with that.

Ignoring the facts won't change them.

Zippy we have talk in the pass call me when ready to sell block

Which is why all these there is no viable market arguments come across as BS to me. I would really like to see a sales comparison between that 409 head and their Mopar heads over the last 5 years.

Kevin

I doubt I'll ever meet Maskin but if he asked me for a market analysis I'll tell him that the SB is a dead end, G3 might take off if enough people push on it at the same time, and the BB market has buyers with cash in hand ready to buy blocks today. Given those choice I know where I'd invest.

Sometimes Andy I just don't get you. Plenty of small block guys on here, A bodies only, and Facebook groups. Get out in the world and out of the DYNO room and open your eyes. Countless LA and magnum small block guys racing and winning at the tracks, at least eastern states.

Great post John

Um.... OK

rediculous is spelled ridiculous

A simile is not smile (not even a cute simile is a smile).

Definition for you:
simile noun
sim·​i·​le | \ˈsi-mə-(ˌ)lē

a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses) — compare metaphor

Take 5th grade English much?

No offense to Andy, because I understand his position. Andy has clearly stated he sold off all his small block crap and Andy makes his living selling parts through his articles and books. So Andy has a vested interest in keeping his costs down. It's the same in most other businesses.

If the small block was to start getting more popular, Andy would have to spend a ton of money to get back into the swing of it.

I was talking to a very prominent man in the dirt bike world back when the 4 stroke was running off the 2 stroke. I was writing an online article on the subject, and this mad was gracious enough to set aside a half hour to let me interview him.


About 5 minutes into the discussion (before I even started to record the interview) he said there was no way the he would continue to support the industry of the 2 and 4 strokes were allowed to compete on an equal displacement basis. He said that he has so much money tied up in tooling, parts, technology and everything else that even an adjustment of the displacement would make the 4 stroke uncompetitive enough it wouldn't be worth using the 4 stroke. So I thanked him, scuttled the article and called the guy who I was writing for and told him what happened.

A few weeks later, an article came out stating the same thing. So my point is, once you have so much money tied up in one thing, it makes it monitarily prohibitive to change horses mid stream.

I think that's where Andy is right now, and I don't want to speak for Andy (but I kinda did) so I get his point, to a point.

Um.... OK

rediculous is spelled ridiculous

A simile is not smile (not even a cute simile is a smile).

Definition for you:
simile noun
sim·​i·​le | \ˈsi-mə-(ˌ)lē

a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses) — compare metaphor

Take 5th grade English much? [/quote]



So out of all my posts you find that, and complain. FYI when I type that word in, my iPad corrects tot he wrong spelling.

As for simile and smile, I don't care what you think so I don't really read what you say very close.

So take your Joe Stalin attitude and be miserable.

Again, a magnum block will never be a race block. Maybe you should study the English language and see what the difference between race and production means. They ain't the same. But the sad contingent who think a magnum block is a race block get their feelings hurt quite easily.

I will be in touch, thanks Dwayne.

Um.... OK

rediculous is spelled ridiculous

A simile is not smile (not even a cute simile is a smile).

Definition for you:
simile noun
sim·​i·​le | \ˈsi-mə-(ˌ)lē

a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses) — compare metaphor

Take 5th grade English much? [/quote]

So we have a new spelling tsar? I assume you'll take over the grammar duties also?

Ohhh Boy I’m in trouble. A spelling and grammar Nazi, my worst dreams come true.

And a pseudo cheap skate!!! What's the world coming to? I'm amazed at some of the word corrects this iPad makes. I usually catch them but every now and then it's gets past me.

The Ritter block is a good piece especially the later ones. Brett has a program for the Victor heads and they make good power. Our block does not leak and is hanging in. On the third shake down lap it went 5.57 and the following night we went to a 5.80 race and went 5.63, taking timing out to slow it down. My point is there is already a block and heads available for the SB that are capable of making over 900hp.

Ray

The issue is (and you have to think back to the Bob Book record setting small block MoPar thread) that I'm not sure the Ritter block I capable of being "THAT" block for a competitive Comp Eliminator deal.

I've never had my hands on a Ritter block so I don't know all the detail of them. I do know that block is much better than anything else out there.

And I don't see why if Book and Ritter got together that couldn't make the Rotter block capable of Comp type stuff.

Clearly, the later iterations of his block work and work well. I just don't know if in its current configuration the Ritter block can be considered a platform for what Bob Book is looking for.

With the ritter block people have such a bad image in their heads of all the early ones that needed thousands of dollars in weird machining operations, leaky blocks, no help making it right... that went on for years that they just can't believe the issues have really been solved. Just like the 4.7 dodge/jeep engines, the first 10 years are so problematic that by the time they finally went and fixed the issues in 08 nobody would buy it so it got discoed after a couple of years. Seems that if ritter sold his tooling to dart or ritter would get them selling.

As for the genIII blocks, the BGE block can take 1000HP and is cheap, that covers %99.9 of the GenIII guys needs, a race block needs so many different things for different classes and builders nobody would be able to decide what universal features it would need. BGE Heads are readily available and affordable to supply 800NA hp and can take some decent boost and the eddy heads give you a tiny bit more for a lot more $$$ and the thitec heads after that for even more serious HP that there just dont seem to be a big need for more stuff in that department. People dont seem to get that the BGE heads are better than a W2 ever was and the stock rockers are better than common LA and BB aftermarket rockers. People are stuck in the mind set they need aftermarket heads and roller rockers to go fast. On the other hand what I dont understand is how come we cant get a cheap set of plain steel headers for basic common swaps, oil pans, and no affordable decent intakes for carbs?

don't you think we should just drop all this till after winter and just go snowmobiling for now? I was told that was one of your favorite pastimes?

If a person ordered a Ritter block today, how would they know the one that got shipped is the latest and greatest variation?

I know of a Ritter block being currently built in the north east to compete in comp eliminator. Unless you put some HUGE Power adders on a Ritter block I think it will perform. I've purchased one (the new version I dont think there's any old left for sale)Mine is at QMP in CA. I know the cylinder walls are thicker than a siamese R-3. Mine hasnt needed an funky machine work to make work. W'ere using 60mm babbit cam bearings as we were a little afraid to go large enough for the 60mm roller bearings.
If you want to make big HP in a SB the Ritter block is the only thing available. With the changes at Dart I'm not holding my breath.
If you want to be a key board pecker knock your self out !
I'm headed back to my shop.

If find it FUNNY that the Gen3 guys continue to think they know what is best for us guys running the older stuff. But yet most of us are going faster than they are with the newer stuff. LOL. Some of you guys should just stick in the Gen3 area and keep buying and selling your stuff over and over again because it doesn't mate up. Sure a few NA Gen3 guys have their act together but most of the other guys are pissing in the wind. LMAO. The Gen3 stuff my look cool at the car shows and get an owwww and ahhhh at the car cruises but at the track old stuff shines.

To be clear by old stuff do you mean you or smallblocks?

Boff of us. Lol 😂

Big Blocks are for towing your small block race cars to the track.. and I'm still on the fence about a Max effort Gen 3 when it comes to the naturally aspirated application.. haven't been impressed with anything that didn't have cubic money involved

it's going to take few more years yet, as more people take the G3 plunge the more development will trickle down, the G3 guys haven't had 20+ years of Nascar and to some extent Pro-stock development to influence G3 builds ,
yes the knowledge is there but taking that knowledge and applying it to real world G3 builds will take some time, effort and investment, each engine platform reacts differently, the trick will be to find what these G3s like that is different than G2s BBM and SBMs I'd love to see what Brett could do with a G3 if money were no object.
So for now you small blocks guys keep on knocking down those ET's
I've had more Big block friends go small block in the last 10 years than I've had small block guys go Big block.
That's my $02 worth.

The Facebook Flu is now at moparts...

Buy the weigh I’m having phun runing a smahl blauqe over that tractor motor bigue blauqe I had....

The biggest thing hurting Gen3 development/acceptance on the grassroots level at least is the cost of entry compared to brand x.

There used to be a time when you could go to a boneyard and buy a nice running 440 and 727 out of a low mileage 67 New Yorker for pretty cheap and over the course of a weekend or 2 transplant it into your grandmother's 62 Belvedere and be the terror of the town, attending hotrod class 101.

Fast forward to today, the only way you get a 5.7 for under $1k is if it's blown up. Basically now you get to start with a block and crank shaft or a block and 2 heads because the nice low mileage running one out of that 07 300C is $3K. So much for being the terror of the town in 2 weekends with your grandmothers 83 Cordoba learning anything about a Mopar other than that those LS swaps sure are cool and affordable.

So your alternative at this point if the dark side is not for you is a 5.9 Magnum. Not SBC cheap but compared to the Hemi it is and all kinds of hand me down go faster parts available as you work your way thru Hotrod 101 and beyond.

Kevin

The reason a genIII typically is not that fast is the cars they are running in are 4500# race weight. Guys with factory 6.4s and bolt on stuff are running 12s in those 4500# beasts without ever pulling the intake or valve covers. That is not a fast time for a SB duster but try putting 1500# in your trunk and go racing and see how fast your SB is then.

Don;t get me wrong, I am still a SB guy at heart, I am still building them for me and customers but the demand is certainly slowing down and I wont get to build hot rods for a living if I don't move on. I am very excited about the upcoming trick flow SB head (wish they made it in magnum intake bolt and rocker flavor so I could bolt them on my 410 CID dakota motor but whatever), (also 1/2 my engine builds go into 94 and later dodge trucks so I think they just missed their biggest target market) but I think it is just a little late to the game. Even if it exceeds expectations it wont flow as much as an eagle head. I still just might buy a set and try to drill a magnum bolt pattern and sell my rockers to buy LA rockers, but then my cam will effectively shrink.

Also I just bought a wrecked 60,000 mile 2013 charger RT for $800 with a proven almost 400hp engine, I cant get close to that in a SB for $800, the only problem I have is the swap parts cost so stinking much VS the SB.

One disclaimer I know everyone will harp on me about but I got to be honest, there are no race tracks locally so almost all my builds are street performance oriented and only a handfull get to the tracks. I used to race when I lived in TN so I have some personal knowledge of what worked for me there, one big thing I learned is most guys are not making anywhere near what they think they are. My 400 HP 360 66 dart would keep up with or beat most "600HP" SBC cars. The stuff I have built lately would blow that old car away.

For Ritter to produce a block that would suit Bob Book's needs would require a new set of patterns and new cast developed. The deck height is around 1.5" too tall to start with

Not knowing whats best. Knowing whats available!
Build your junk, I'll build mine junk and i've built both.
There is No new small block stuff out there. Having the victors SB heads are great but what do you put them under?
W9 W8 great heads but outdated tech.
P5 ?????
even the P7 are done, nothing to put them under.
The reasons the G3 are good is availability, strength and a head that has a very efficient combustion chamber.