Valvetrain noise, with vid.

Greetings gents,

Apologies for making my first post a question!

I've just put the top end back on my 505 stroker after it died a sorry death at the hands of the previous engine builder.

It runs a comp cam XE hydraulic roller, (new) erson lifters, (new) smiths custom pushrods (3/8" shaft), (new) full harland sharp 1.5 roller rocker kit in Indy EZ heads.

I've got a noise that sounded like a lifter but that I'm beginning to think might be a pushrod making contact with the head. The preload is set to half a turn from zero lash with 2 threads showing on the adjusters, per Harland Sharps advice. The stripe across the valve tips looks good and the shaft appears to be getting plenty of oil. (oil pressure in general is very good.)

Here's a quick video - the problem seems local to 3 or 5 pot and is especially easy to hear when I blip the gas.

Anyone had problems with clearance for 3/8 pushrods in EZ heads or think it is something different?

I'm going to pull the rockers off tonight and see if I can see any witness marks on the pushrods. Hoping I don't have to pull the heads again to clearance the holes!

Thanks!

J.

Ez heads almost always need clearancing for the intake pushrods when running Hs rockers.

There will be witness marks at or near the top of the intake pushrod tunnel if there is any contact.

When I sell those heads, I relieve that area a bit as part of my normal prep.

Makes sense, it did sound like it was on the intake side. Gah - shortest lived set of head gaskets ever! Thanks for letting me know.

Why isn't there OIL.

You might be able to back the adjusters off and sneak the pushrods out, which would give you a better view of the tunnel to see if there are witness marks or not.......... although that’s not really any easier than pulling the shaft off.

I don’t know if it’s just not showing in the video or what........ but I was wondering about that too.
The only squirt hole in a HS rocker is towards the pushrods........ but I would have expected to see some oozing out between the rockers and spacers.

Looks like the shaft is definitely getting oil - it starts pooling in the valley under the hold downs 30 seconds or so after starting. I know [censored] all about these engines though, is it supposed to be spraying out?

edit - it does ooze between the rockers and spacers too, you can't really see it in the vid.

If it doesn’t burn up pushrods....... you have enough oil.

Just don’t see any in that video.

Thanks again for the help - I'll pull the shafts tonight and look for any blueing on the pushrod cups too.

If the pushrods are rubbing they will have a witness mark on them

How much run time is on the new parts?

Very little - around 15 mins or less.

I’ll be curious to hear what you find.

Took the shaft out just now - pushrods were full of oil, no blueing / wear on the cup at all. The shaft has two identically sized and positioned oil holes top and bottom so doesn't seem like it matters which way it goes.

I'll post up pics tomorrow but there are no witness marks on the pushrods and I find it tricky to tell if there are any in the pushrod holes - the holes have been machined out and it was running 3/8 pushrods and a different brand of roller rockers previously.

Slightly worrying, there was a reddish brown deposit on the valve tips? I'm assuming the roller tips get oil through a hole in the rocker from the needle roller on the shaft?

From the adjusters, it did look like perhaps I could have dialed in more preload on the middle two cylinders where the noise is.

At the moment, I'm thinking clean the pushrod holes and mark them up with engineers blue, then put it back together, set the preload and crank it with the plugs out on the starter. That way I can pull the pushrods again and see where / if there is contact? Should also be able to double check there is good oil flow to the roller tips.

Did you have the cam grooved to oil the rockers full time?
What method are you using to set the rocker arm preload?
Last thing what brand and how old are your hydraulic roller lifters now?

Yeah that was my first thought where's the oil??

There are no feed holes at all on the valve side of a HS rocker.
Everything on that side of the rocker relies on the “oil mist” floating around under the valve cover.

Unless the lifters you have require a specific odd type of preload adjustment, I’d shoot for between 5/8-3/4 turn from zero.

delete

Good luck in tracking that noise down. One thing I found makes it easier to R & R the rocker shafts and line up the pushrods is to use a pair of 8 inch long bolts to position the rocker shafts while you line everything up. You'll have to remove them to refit your shaft studs or bolts of course.

That save me a lot of time when I was messing with my geometry and pushrod issues. I run Manton's Stage 5 - 7/16" pushrods with Custom T&D rockers on my Indy EZ's that were beautifully repaired and prepped by Fast68Plymouth. All my 3/8" pushrods were contacting the intake port casting prior to Dwayne going over them.

Other than some rocker noise you will need to fix the header exhaust leak in order to isolate the noise better every time you blip the throttle I can hear the exhaust noise.

Thanks everyone, very much appreciated! Fast68plymouth, thanks for clarifying the oiling for the roller tips...seems a bit marginal but I guess the sweep is pretty small. I was only running a half turn of preload, so will try dialing that up a little.

Pics here. By the by, the noise I'm trying to track is the noise that sounds like an exhaust leak. (It's not.)

Will report back after I've had a proper check for pushrod contact and tried it with a bit more preload.

Looks like “rust” on those valve tips to me.
Try cleaning it up with some scotchbright.

The “usual” place for contact is right at the top of the pushrod tunnel, at the edge of the flat pad that’s cast there.

This would be when the valves are closed.
The pushrod will move away from that side of the hole, towards the valve cover as the valve opens.
I’ve seen a few occasions where there was contact on the valve cover side of the tunnel at full lift, but it’s not as common, and usually only affects one or two.

All of this is just on the intakes.
I’ve never seen the exhaust have any issues.

It looks like someone did something minor with a sanding roll in that tunnel.
The sanded finish is easier to see the witness marks in compared to the shiny machined finish.
Hard to see from the pic if those dark spots are from contact, or if they just never got hit by the sanding roll.
Might try the scotchbright there to see if it leaves more of a mat finish for future observations.

When the rockers are bolted down, much much side to side play is there, per pair?
My preference is to have at least .010, but less than .030.

If you don’t find evidence of contact, I’d put it back together and run it some.
The XE lobes are usually a bit noisy....... might just be that’s what you’re going to get.

That's incredibly helpful thanks. The 'rust' stuff just wipes off with a finger so no worries there...

I'll pop it back together and take a very close look where you described, if it's at the top, I should be able to see it. Will measure the side play on the rockers too - I haven't done that except just to feel there was some.

Will let you know how it goes, hopefully smoothly. I'm well overdue turning a wheel or two in anger. I'd settle for mild annoyance at this point....

maybe the rocker shafts are in wrong, upside down. Oil ?? I don't see any

Most guys will think they have a lifter noise
when its a small exhaust leak.. believe me it
can happen to all of us.. happened to me and
I worked in the exhaust lab at Chrysler for
35 year and building headers.. it doesnt take
much for a leak.. also make sure your shafts
are on the right way.. there is a UP and front
on them

It sounds dry to me. You may be getting some oil up top but it may not be enough. If those rockers came with stands make sure there’s a relief in the base of the oil feed stand. Ours didn’t and it restricted the oil. Also make sure you’re getting plenty of oil from the cam by priming the pump with the rocker stand off the head. Watch out - oil should shoot out of the feed hole and clear the fender. If it just trickles out the cam bearing may not be installed correctly.

Far more experienced guys than me saying a little oil is enough, but my experience is that there should be WAY more oil than that up there. Running it without covers like that, I would think you should have an absolute mess on your hands in mere seconds. (???). I’ll watch & learn here.

You are getting Some oil but not nearly enough IMO. Could be the vid though, But it should look more like a Flood of oil when you blip the throttle, witch it doesn't. Agreed, look for witness marks on the pushrods.

Gah now I'm paranoid about the oiling again. Will put it back together tonight and take another look. There's definitely oil coming out of the pedestals, pooling on the shaft under the hold downs and oozing out of the side of the rockers. Not as much as I've seen in a few other videos I've looked at though.

The shaft is entirely symmetrical as far as I can see - doesn't look like it should make any difference which way up it goes. Tried calling Harland Sharp now but they close early on Friday.

There is a notch at one end of each shaft.. that
notch has a direction that it should be pointed..
and the holes are pointed down

In addition to what PB said. Theres big holes for the shaft feed and small holes for the rocker feeds. Those little holes are offset from the big ones. You want the offset to be pointed towards the springs/exhaust.


Don't know about the Harland sharp rockers, but most rockers have a groove inside the body of the rocker that travels centered to the oil feed. if you reverse the shafts the feed gets cut off on about half the stroke of the rocker some what possibly limiting oil supply, but not cutting it off completely. Never had one on backwards so never saw it myself.

The HS shafts are symmetrical.
There is no up or down, or front or back.

When you put it back together, start it up and let it idle for a couple minutes.

If you see a trail of oil running along the head out by the valve cover rail toward the back of the motor, and starting to fill in the area in that rear corner....... and then start to crest(or almost crest) the valve cover rail....... then the oil flow is fine imo.
When there isn’t enough up top, the first thing that happens is the pushrods/adjusters run dry and burn up.
Oil typically doesn’t come spraying out of those rockers when you have the factory “through the cam” oiling.

As I mentioned earlier, the only oil hole is at the underside by the adjuster screw.

With any other rocker I can think of, you’d have more oil flying around since they would have another set of holes either on top of the rocker, or feeding the roller.

Very much appreciated! Back together, I can get a 12 thou feeler gauge down the side of all the inlet pushrods up top by the pedestals, the actual clearance must be larger so looks like no contact.

There's beaucoup oil - through the shaft, out the hole by the adjusters and in a good river back down the head. Set the preload an extra 1/8 of a turn which did make a little difference.

The only thing I can see wrong is there's very little side play in the rockers, just a few thou at best. They're not tight and the spacers rotate freely, but i might try and get some slightly thinner shims.

Still a bit ticky, but will take it for a spin tomorrow and see how things go.

Harland Sharp recommends and wants .015 minimum side play at room temps, use a feeler gauge that is accurate to measure yours
I use from 1/8 to a max of 1/2 turn preload on any Mopar hydraulic lifters at room temps
A lot of folks on here forget that the adjuster is on the lifter side of the rocker arm and the ratio of the rocker arms changes how much preload the valve sees
Most adjustable rocker arms use a 3/8x24 thread per inch adjuster screw, which equals .04166 per revolution for that size adjuster screw. The larger 7/16x20 adjuster screw equals .050 per thread revolution
If you do the math on either one 1/4 turn equals either .0105 on the 3/8 size adjuster screw and .0125 on the 7/16 adjuster. Most of the instructions I've read about hydraulic lifter preload says to use from .030 to .000 preload on the Hi Po high rev hydraulics lifter

As long as there is at least “some” side to side free play between the rocker pairs when the motor is at operating temp you’ll be fine.