505 build opinions Take 2

A few weeks back I started a thread regarding my RB based stroker build asking for "your 2 cents". I am finalizing my purchase list and would like some input on cam choice. I spent some time on the phone with the guys at Hughes Engines and they seemed pretty excited about this specific grind noted below.

I attached a link to the original thread for anyone who wants to get caught up.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post2522684

The build as it sits on paper:

RB based 440 Source 505/512
4.25 stroke
4.350 bore
-17cc dished pistons
440 source main caps
ARP studs

Trick Flow 240 Heads
Trick Flow Single plane intake
Harland Sharp 1.5 Rockers
Hughes Solid Roller Cam:
260/264 .675/.675 lift @110* Installed ADV 4*

The Magic Bench Dyno says 666HP at 5700rpm and 650ftlbs at 4200rpm

Does this seem legit? Thoughts opinions?

Thanks

Looks good! Go with it!

maybe some USA made bcr main caps?

I have no issue with looking at other brand main caps... Like mentioned on the BRC website, my concern was with the possibility of failure of the aluminum pieces vs steel. I guess I need a little more reassurance.

Pete

Should peak a little higher than 5700 with that cam and intake, if using 2” headers.

Your original post was for a street car with AC and creature comforts. That 260/264 cam is more of a bracket race cam. It will make 700 hp on the dyno but I'm not so sure you'll want to drive it on the freeway in overdrive with the AC blowing. It will probably suck enough fuel to make a sheik wince since the extra overlap will be blowing the intake out the exhaust port at cruising speed.

If you want decent fuel economy while cruising down the freeway in overdrive then you'll need to go with a much smaller cam. If you're going to be bracket racing and don't car about using overdrive then the 260/264 will be fine.

Well..... yeh....... but, but, but.........


“Well into the 650-700hp range”........along with A/C with overdrive....... and old school NA stock block RB based stroker....... doesn’t add up too well IMO.

But...... it’s not my car.

Targeting a hp goal for a street cruiser is a bit ambiguous, unless there’s an ET you’re chasing. But then how well the car is set up becomes part of the discussion, especially if the ET goals are kinda lofty.
If it’s a situation where the car might make a few trips down the 1/4 mile each year....... then I’d concentrate on how it will drive the other 99% of the time.

Depending on where it was being tested, that combo would get you well into the 650-700hp range(or more)........ or get you close.

I have 1-70 air in my 9 second streeter...........One window down at 70 mph while freeway cruising w/276-281 @ .050...........

Come by the house and ride in my car.

For me, in my car, that cam is a little large..

Quite a drive from Cally...........

Dewayne and I have had several conversations about the Trick Flow heads and how good the low lift flow is. That great low lift flow is a blessing and a curse. The curse shows up when you put a healthy amount of cam duration into the engine. The heads flow so well at low lift that the intake charge just starts going out the exhaust.

So given that, I'd really be concerned about a 260 duration cam in an engine that is supposed to go down the freeway at 1800 rpm. (Or whatever your cruise rpm is. You can figure it out once you know your OD ratio.)

A 260 duration cam probably will not be very efficient at 1800 rpm with the Trick Flow heads. It is your car and you'll need to decide but as Dwayne pointed out, do you really want 650 hp for the track, or do you want it to run nice and smooth on the freeway at 70 mph?

Just a general observation. Large cams run really, really well in BB Mopars. IMO It's hard to over cam them. I have a .660 roller in a low compression 400 street car with 3.23 gears and an 8" converter. It uses a LOT of gas. It will drive normally and get psychotic at the dip of the loud peddle in any gear. Super fun!

I agree with others here that, depending on your experience with hotter cams on the street, 260*+ might be a bit of a burden in traffic. Now some guys run that duration and bigger, but not everyone would like what that cam will do to the idle, off idle transitions and maybe even cruise. Certainly a matter of personal taste and comfort.

Personally, in my 440 based 500", 250* was about my limit of comfort. I have ran 10 or 12 different cams from 245* to 260*.

And don't forget that the EFI will not like the lope at lower engine speeds. You will need to lock it out and manually set it until the engine smooths out and the O2 can give reliable readings.

And one last thing, with that much power available, it will take some time figuring out the suspension so that you can transfer much of it to the ground. And on the street, it will take a lot of work and experimentation to get 600HP or so to the ground. It can, of course, be done. But it won't be easy. Heck, 600+HP can be a challenge to hook consistently at the track for a street car.

It would be my suggestion that you pull back some on the cam. If you end up putting too small a cam in, you can always stab in a bigger one at some point. But the car will be more flexible and enjoyable with a cam too small than it would be with a cam too large.

In this kind of combo, a guy's first time rarely gets everything right right off. You just hope to get as close as possible without making any big mistakes and dial it in from there.

OP is only a couple of hours from me in OKC.

You had responded to Thumperdart so all good.........

My old pump gas 511 C.I. pump gas 400 stroker motor had a Comp Cams solid roller cam in it that had 260 degrees at .050 on the intake with .420 lobe lift and 266 degrees at .050 on the exhaust with .409 lobe lift ground on a 108 LSA angle installed at 106 to 107 on the intake lobe. I used a set of Harland Sharp 1.65 ratio rockers on it also
That cam was very noisy and rumpity out the exhaust at 1400 to 1800 RPM, so much so that I had some young hot rodders lean out there window going down the road at 30 MPH in town one afternoon and ask me how much it cost to get my cars exhaust to sound that mean
I built that car and motor for street racing, not cruising in 2nd gear at light part throttle cruise that slow
Be careful on the cam duration at .050 and the lobe separation angle if you want it to idle nice and not be running in the rumpity and loping a lot RPM range at lower cruising speeds

My hydr roller is smooth @ 1800 rpm in OD & converter locked up,512ci,255,258 @ .050 cam, I am on the VERY edge for my set up, has taken a lot of tuning to get it happy in all driving conditions.

That is about 10 degrees larger than what I'd recommend for someone who wants to cruise on the freeway in OD but it sounds like you got it working.

I have a 246 cam in my 512 and it is okay on the freeway in 5th if I'm running 70 mph or higher. If I hit slow traffic and have to drop down to 50 or 55mph then I need to downshift to 4th gear.

So freeway cruising in light traffic is one thing, navigating a crowded freeway might be another variable. In Portland the freeways can clog up most any time of day so you always have to be ready to slog your way home. A cam that is too big just makes a bad drive worse...

When I get in a slow down traffic situation, I just flip my lock up switch off & stay in OD, no big deal on my set up.

I'll chime in and agree that the cam Hughes suggested might be a bit on the hairy side for a street car. The racer in me who thinks it would be awesome to have 650 plus hp on tap would equate into a mid-10 second car. Is that a goal, maybe... I really like for it to be able to break out of 11.00, maybe it's unrealistic. Reality is, the car might see the track 2 or 3 times a year and will spend most of its time driving the Oklahoma freeway system at 75 mph and suburban areas to get to and from car shows and cruises.

In the past I've driven a 440 A-body with a 245* cam and a bunch of lift and thought it drove just fine with the exception of it not having any overdrive as that car was a 4:10 geared car with 27 inch tires.

I expect the cruise RPM to fall between 2200 and 2500 rpm which for me is tolerable. Hell, my 2008 6.1 hemi powered Jeep JKU has 5.38 gears and cruises at 2700 rpm.

GY3, I will definitely come for a visit to check out your car and go for a ride... I'd just love to meet a fellow mopar guy. Pretty far and few in the OKC area.

I'm not dead set on this cam choice but I can say it had me smiling ear to ear just thinking about how it might sound sitting at a stop light. IN the end, I do want a reliable car that is somewhat edgy but manageable to drive. I'd like for my wife to be able to hop in the car, turn the key and drive to the store if she so chose to do.

20 years ago I took many drives (75 miles) to the track with my
68 Charger with 12-1 a .280/660 roller, dominator, 5200 stall and 4.30. In the slow lane of course.. Now I understand why the guys at the track said I was nuts.

It's all about how much discomfort you can tolerate vs how important it is getting the very best timeslip. I wouldn't have thought twice about your cam in question back in the day. Now the 50 year old me wants a little more comfort and I'm ok with not being the fastest.

That said, my last ride has a 520 with Indy ez and a 252/587 hyd roller and I thought that was very streetable with 4200 stall and 3.55 gears. It dynoed at 650 hp. I wouldn't have gone on a road trip with it, but had no trouble driving 20 miles to cruise night. Never raced it unfortunately.

Your build sounds a lot like what I am looking for... I'll give hughes another call to see which direction they take me the next time I speak with them.

In the end, it’s just a cam we’re talking about.

If you want to try the one you posted specs for...... try it.

After you’ve had some time with it, you’ll decide if it was the right choice or not.
At that point you’ll have a better feel for what you want.
You have to start somewhere.

As for the “10 second” thing......... that’s really way more about the car than the motor........ unless you have about 200 hp more than you theoretically need....... and plenty of traction.

As mentioned before, a light shot of horsepower on demand (N2O) is, in my opinion, the best way to achieve your goal at the track and still meet the streetability goals you have put out there.

600 streetable, mild mannered HP is pretty easy to build, reliable and not overly expensive. With most fully equipped, ~3,500lbs. all steel cars, this is mid to low 11's.

The NX kit I bought was under $500 for everything and knocks about 1 second and 10mph off with very little effort.

I wanted a NO COMPROMISE street car and, for the most part, that's what I built. The rollcage and spool are exceptions to that.

Nitrous is one way, but a blower doesnt need a bottle refill, and is easier on parts. Once you drive a car that is supercharged, it will make a believer out of you. If it were my ride, i would consider a procharger. It will allow a much smaller cam, less rear gear, and could cruise at very low rpm. 1400? I don't know if there is a compatible fuel injection system that will fit your needs, but that would be great with the supercharger, since we are spending your money,,,

To support Gregs feelings........

I prepped some rpm heads and supplied a hyd roller cam for a 454bbc/procharger build.

A very basic straightforward build.

Dynoed it with the belt and carb hat removed, along with swapping the blow thru carb for a normal one..... about 535hp.
Install belt, carb hat and blow thru carb........ 775hp.

Yep, any way you slice it, a poweradder (of some sort) is going to make his goals more attainable and the car much easier on parts and happier going down the road.

Personally, I want an A-body 'Cuda with turbo 6.1 in the worst way for a street car...

The thought of N20 crossed my mind... I still have the mentality of it being the easy way out to go fast I guess. I've always been an all motor type guy. I know the build noted above with the big cam seems a bit dicey for a street car. I'm complexed by my racing must go fast kid in me while the adult realized I don't really need that to enjoy the car. Especially if I plan on building an all out full effort A-body after this project.

Part of this is driven by my buddy with his 71 502 Chevelle that runs high 10's with AC/PB and all the goodies. That thing runs great on the street. They guy talks a lot of mopar smack and I kinda want to put him in his place.

Ridiculous I know...

Yes I want the car to be a high effort street car, yes I will be required to drive 50 miles or better on the freeway at 75 mph and yes it will be driven in slow moving traffic of the city... I want my unicorn, lol.

Stock B&S + Procharger makes all that high $, high RPM valve gear superfluous. The pumping loss (driving the blower) is really small at low RPM (unlike a Roots) and the milder low overlap cam has much better low RPM/high vacuum manners.
Extra feature: makes the complex, how-close-are-they-to-equal-length, what-RPM-do-they-tune-at headers expensive overkill since the blower flushes the chamber on every rotation without any exhaust signal. Just size the primaries for the power, not the inches.

Find out the cam specs on your buddy's 502 and work from there. What transmission is he using and what does the car weigh? Parts are parts regardless of what brand the car is. If he has a combo that is working then figure out what the parts are and copy them.

What you're talking about can be built but it typically costs a bunch to do the R&D. If you can start with a known good combo and copy it then that saves you a lot of R&D time.

The combo outlined in the opening post is straight forward enough.

Just build it like that and tweak as necessary.

I know he's running Dart heads and with a Comp solid roller with I think 258* duration and around .680/.690 lift. Runs a built 4L60 trans with 2500 stall and 3.73 gears. Race weight 3780. 4 link rear.

The car drives surprisingly well on the street. A little surging at low speed.

I agree. Made in the USA and top quality billet aluminum!!!

EFI can solve the surging at low speeds. The four link probably helps him run 10's, you might have a little trouble get your car to hook up as well. But, it can be done. There are a bunch of compromises to be made such as exhaust noise and stall speed and gearing. Having a known good combo to copy will keep you going in the right direction.

The 260/264 really isn’t that big.
It just seems kinda big to me for around town A/C use and low rpm OD cruising....... but maybe not.

Idle quality with rollers can be a lot milder than the duration @.050 would indicate.

I sold a 264/268 solid roller to a guy with an RPM headed 500.
He had been running a XE294 hyd cam(250/256)..... and was worried about the drivability with the roller.

It was a actually way better with the roller than the big hyd cam.

I used to run a 259/264-108 roller in my 9.7:1 448...... low speed manners were milder than a MP 509 cam.

A true 600 horsepower in a 3500 pound car will be WAY faster than low to mid 11’s.
My 3280 pound 360 doesnt even make 500 and ran 11.20’s in good air when i still had a 727 in it.

That's kinda what I was hoping to hear and I will likely give that cam a shot even if it turns into a science experiment.

The comment regarding the 509 cam... My first build was a 9.5:1 440 with ported 519 heads and the MP 509 cam. I loved that motor. In my 69 Dart with 3.91 gears and 2500 stall. That
car was a blast to drive and sounded like a beast at idle and at 6500 rpm. I would drive that car all over the place with zero issue.

[/quote]

A true 600 horsepower in a 3500 pound car will be WAY faster than low to mid 11’s.
My 3280 pound 360 doesnt even make 500 and ran 11.20’s in good air when i still had a 727 in it. [/quote]



600/3500 = 128MPH which if the chassis is good enough is a 10.49..somewhat better than low 11's........add a small 125 shot to that and its 9.7>9.9's@135+...there is a lot to say for building it mild and adding a small shot to it. I say do what you gotta -do the easiest way. I wanted to run a 9 back in 1990 before I retired from Racing, only got to a 10.7 na, added a small shot, job done.

There are plenty of 600hp 3500-3700lb street cars that won’t run a “ten”.

Wrong gears, wrong suspension, wrong tires, wrong converter, poor driving technique, etc.

And that doesn’t even take into account it may not have a good tune, or have adequate fuel delivery, etc.

Making the 600-700hp is the easy part.
The combo outlined in the opening post will easily do it.

10’s....... also relatively easy....... if no compromises to the gears, converter, tires, fuel system, etc, are involved.

Each “streetability” compromise is a bit of time added to the slip.

If every combo ran exactly what the owner thought it should, there wouldn’t be any of those “help me get my car to ET better” threads(and I wouldn’t get as many phone calls and emails along those same lines).


As an example.....GY3...... 511, cnc ported heads, roller cam...... should be pretty darn close to 600hp.
Car should be in that 3500-3700lb range....... not running 10’s.

this about sums it up .

choose a goal not a HP , then accept what it needs to get there .
my pump gas 440 ran to 10.80s @ 3700lbs with a .520 nett lift solid flat tappet . Daily driver . Drove interstate multiple times .

Tex

Thanks....I think...LOL!

My car is full of compromises for the street as mentioned. Pump gas, Leaf spring suspension, really tight converter, 275 Drag radials, mechanical pump and stock tank, poor weight distribution. Hell, it still has the battery up front in the stock location!

Oddly enough it runs almost exactly (within a tenth) of what Virtual Dyno says it should!

I emphasize all the time it is NOT a racecar! It is, however, very consistent at the track and a real pleasure/comfortable to drive around town.

And thats a nice Mild 532hp/121mph street car that obviously hooks and runs within a few 1/100ths of what it should according to its 3700lbs....If it were 3500 which is what my post was about it would go 10.90's. Your street compromises do not seem to have much effect on its on track performance at all. You probably do have a few more horses under the bonnet that could be used better with a more race orientated set up however without sacrificing the driving too much but why bother when it runs so good.
60 Foot E.T. : 1.55
1/8 Mile E.T. : 7.02
1/8 Mile Trap Speed : 96.89
1/4 Mile E.T. : 11.12
1/4 Mile Trap Speed : 121

If that thing only makes 532hp, someone did something very wrong.

When I had my 260cfm 906 headed, trw piston, 9.8:1 448 in my car, it went 10.70’s@125+, @3670lbs.
555hp right as it came out of the car.

GY3’s 511 motor should be at least 30-40hp more than my old heap.

What I had was the 5300 converter, 4.56’s, and slicks.

The calculators provide a report card on the “overall” combo, but if that combo isn’t optimized, the hp result is flawed.

I didn't say thats all it has, I'm just saying thats how much fwhp it had to pull that car to 121mph@3700lbs or was available with all those street restrictions on that day under those conditions, as I said>

"You probably do have a few more horses under the bonnet that could be used better with a more race orientated set up" ..so if he's@600hp he's losing 60hp or so to exh./electric w-pump etc., etc.

just discussin....and thats exactly what my old 446 SP bottom end junk ran, 10.71@125 with 9.8:1, 260cfm 906's@3350lbs, 4.88's, 32's, 4800 stall...539hp..6600 trap rpm.

Which is what the situation is “most” of the time when we’re talking street cars.

Agreed ....and I see it all the time here with race cars even, most just haven't got their chassis optimized enough, its all big lazy stroker motors with almost street gears and rubbish 60fts', apart from a few that 60 in the 1.26>1.31's@9.90, but then they run those 454 chebby motors to 7500+.....all we do is brkt racing for "fun"

Let me say, too, that I've never had the perfect weekend for everything to gel together. If I have a good air, then track prep isn't there, when track prep is there it's over a hundred degrees and 4000 foot da. In really good weather earlier this year I did manage to squeeze off 102 mile an hour pass in the Eighth Mile!

I tell you what... after much thought and talk with a few folks. I'm gonna run with the cam that Hughes suggested and go from there. I know I can deal with a pretty healthy cam without much issue, I love a loud obnoxious car to boot. If it turns out that the cam makes the car unbearable to drive, like mentioned above... it's an easy fix. Then I have a cam for my next build already sitting on the shelf.

I still plan on running 3.73 gears with a built 518 overdrive trans which should put my freeway rpm around 2350 at 75 mph with a 28 inch tire. I can tolerate that easily.

Sounds like a nice build!!

We’ll be here when you have it done and have been to the track and can post the times.

I have a super nice zex perimeter nitrous kit up to 450HP, purge kit and blow off kit for sale all brand new...for dominator carb...it'd be amazing on your build.

I'm hoping by spring of 2019... I'm doing the bodywork now, I expect to have it painted by November/December. The interior is all done, just needs bolted in. Suspension is powder coated and ready for install, rear axle sitting on the floor waiting to be assembled. Lots of work but I have good help.

Sounds OK to me. The BCR caps with Girdle are a really nice upgrade. Comes with all the hardware too. The 1/2" girdle does require you to rework most oil pickup tubes.
I haven't checked the specs, but guessing the valve springs on the Trick Flow heads would have to be changed to use the Hughes cam?

There we go, puttin on your man shoes and gettin after it......... You will be shredding tires at will with a carb, EFI?..........

Why the downer on EFI?

Cos I build and modify carbs and have for several on here and abroad........Check out my FB page below and you will understand what some never will or refuse to accept...........

For sure some IFR restriction has gotten me great low throttle opening manners with a racy holley before. Most holleys I’ve run were pig rich with the tiny bit of throttle opening you need to keep up with grandma and cellphone soccermom in traffic with a gnarly motor. I would still go efi if I had the cash laying around.

I’m watching all these big block stroker street strip threads pretty carefully this week- good stuff! Lots of heavies have been kind enough to spend some time at the keyboard lately.

I’m building a 512 for a streetrod type truck but my goals are more mild- all I want is to surprise the local mustangs and camaros. It’s great to see all the strokers getting screwed together around here!

I guess most people wouldn't be happy limited to 65 MPH at about 3500 RPM which is what I see with 275/60R15s and 4.10s. A streetable 4200+ converter might feel a bit "slushy" on the street, but doesn't affect steady-throttle cruise RPM and certainly helps the 60-ft times when the chassis is dialed in.

It's all a tradeoff between what you're OK with while driving on the street vs what you want to see on your ET slip. I lean heavily towards the ET slip at the expense of what some people aren't willing to give up putting around on the street.

My requirements don't represent anyone else's. I mention this only because I see people set performance expectations that aren't consistent with their build descriptions and/or self-imposed constraints.

Exactly, when we bought the '71 340 Cuda in 1980 it was a hot street car, 3.55's, 26" Bias tyres, 3500 stall, .484hyd 750DP car, ran 13.3's all original body interior etc. I wanted to go faster and realised it wasn't going to do much more as it was so in went 4.30's, 4200 stall, big solid ft cam, 850DP, race hdrs but the same 26" tyres as at the time there was nothing taller available here, man that was hard work on the few trips down the freeway, 4000rpm@55mph, some would put up with that, I wouldn't, it drove great on the street on short trips but we gave that up as bad job and gave up driving the car to the race meetings from then on, I did the shows and the cruises by then and wanted more, ET was the most important for me and it showed..12.3's which for then was quite quick for a stock 10:1 motor, stock headed 340. You wanna go fast and keep it street-able, use a power adder, but don't expect to get that time slip with 3.23 gears and a near stock converter.

FWIW, my E body weighed 3750+ with me in it the last time it was on the track scale. I haven't been running anything but stock-stroke pump-gas 440s, but the last two engine combinations were good for low 11s and mid 10s respectively. The 11-sec engine made around 540 HP and the 10-sec one cranked about 610 HP the way I ran it on the track, altough there was another 10-15 HP on the dyno while testing some parts not run as installed.

Switching to 3.55s and a 3K converter would have made it easier to drive at highway speeds, but would also have slowed the ET by around 1/2 sec. That's where those stroker bulds are supposed to help by making big torque that doesn't need the extra gear & coverter... but the combination still needs to be "right".

I agree. I'm more concerned with performance than street. I do not have power brakes so the 270@50 solid flat tappet cam works real good in this 511. I use an 8" Dynamic converter refreshed by Lenny at Ultimate along with a 4.30/28" tire combo. 3000rpm at 60mph. Soon to get the 4.10 back in or maybe a 3.73 gear. You would never guess the vert is a 5100. Cruises super nice and trans temp stays at 180* while cruising. DONT skimp on your converter. A good one is about $1000. Super fun short distant car.

I'm getting ready to install my new S60 with 3.23 gears so I'm going the other way!

I thought 3.54 was the highest gear you could get in a Dana?