Dart Small Block Mopar Blocks

Bob Book (of carburetor fame) is trying to talk Dick Maskin into building SBM race blocks.

This is the thread on Facebook where he is asking for comments:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/36255983...c&ref=notif

If you are asking "why does Bob care", he builds engines for Australian Pro Stock racers who use small blocks. He is at horsepower levels above the capacity of the R3/R4 blocks and wants something that will last.

If you are interested go to Facebook and add your $.02. If not never mind.

I know Kent Ritter is supply the blocks for the Australian guys right now so I'm guessing you haven't looked at that option.
I bought two new Ritters and one is in the process of being finished right now, just waiting on parts.

Why bother!
You will have a solid bottom end with nothing for the top!
Unless you can start casting W8 or something better.
But your still stuck with outdated tech.
P5 top with a tallblock would be beneficial But a very limited market.
Matt

If I was starting with new stuff. I would go Gen III.

Me to if I was 25 years old. Trouble with the gen3 stuff is a lot of it isn’t interchangeable so you better really study up before you buy

The new edlebrock Head has shown to make some nice power so there are heads available

I'd be curious to see the R4/R3, SBM, bolt-water-oil patterns laid over each other to see if there is any way to put it all in one box. You could always cast multiple lifter blanks and machine them as necessary for each customer. How much difference is there in the camshaft height between the two engines?

Not as bad as you think.
VVT is one and Hellcat heads are another.
Pretty straight forward.
I've been pushing the G3 stuff for a long time. Good parts excellent heads and most importantly you can get the stuff right now.
But in all honesty I think this stuff has a shelf life also.
Matt

Surprised that no one is building the aluminum Ernie Elliot blocks into killer drag motors.
You can actually put your hands on them, and p7 heads can out do a W8.

Some of these engine and even the W8, W9 engines require a lot of rpm and top shelf parts to stay together. Rpm brings expense and is ok for the test n tune crowd but for the weekly racer unless you run slower 9’s with limited rpm become to costly.

I'd like to read the thread and check it out, but unfortunately it's a closed group and I don't want to join it to just read one thing.

IMO kinda funny, Chevy guys who want to make power use the big block 550+ cu in. Small blocks can play IF you have your 4 stages of no2. Like one other post says, cubic inches rule, that means big block. Unless the rules require a small block, to me it's a waste of time and money. This crap that big blocks don't stay together, tell that to the Top Fuel-Funny Car guys.

I reread this post 5 times trying to figure it out. Are you saying big blocks DON'T blow up???

Hardly ever, especially the ones in Top Fuel dragsters and funny cars.

If he would do it to be legal for Stock/Super Stock, it would make for a lot more potential customers - guys who typically are willing to spend a little money for good stuff.

Personally, I won't ever build another serious engine using an old OE block. I could build or use a light car, use a ~430 or so 2HP/CI small block, in a good block, and do what I want to do.

Someone has to say it in every single small block thread. Must have been your turn.

I have an R block and assembly I will probably never build and the R3 in my black Duster. If they were available next year I would order one as I would like to build a Victor headed engine and lean on it. I’m to afraid to do much more grinding on my 360-1 heads.

Have you guys seen Bob's power levels? 400" 3hp/cube N/A
Doug

It's damn impressive and probably down a bit because the blocks are at their limit.

It was idiotic to kill Pro Stock Truck. Make the trucks closer to pounds per cubic inch of the cars, and let the small block pick up 42 CID and Pro Stock car and truck would have been too close in ET.

Or let the trucks run nitrous.

I'll answer both yours and the one below.
Realistically if you want a fast, all out engine, why start with a sb? ANYTHING CAN BE BROKEN, but how long would those SB stay together? If they did all would have one. I'd start with the BAE, blown or turbo, should be in the 2-4000 hp range easily.
HP for dollar spent.
Just my opinion

Not everyone wants to run in the 6s. I'd like to have 170MPH horsepower in a light door car and don't believe I have to hang an extra 200~300# up front or spend 30k to do it. Just need some decent parts and about 850-900HP without worrying about running over the crank. My stuff didn't break, but it was old school and was about at the safe limit for what I was doing. Real question - if Monday morning, Maskin said "Let's build R blocks." how long would it be before someone could make a phone call and have one within a reasonable amount of time?

Bob does their motors for Aussie PS and says he won't use. Ritter block. So who's using them in APS?

Ozzy Pro Stock is using a completely different block. I think someone would have a better chance at getting Indy or KB to cast a block. Dick maskins first name says it all from what I've Been Told.. but I don't know him nor have I ever spoke to him

12 different posters on here and everyone can't even agree if they should be cast at all let alone what configuration! Surprised nobody has complained about the cost even though there hasn't been any form of pricing what so ever for said suggested blocks... Book engines start at $89,000 and go up from there, who on here is gonna shell out even half of that for one??? Book builds record setting engines in super stock, comp eliminator, and Ausie pro stock. Most of those guys have pretty much unlimited budgets, maybe not the super stock guys, but look at the upper end of super stock. $150,000+ AH Hemis and COPO Camaros, cobra Jets, and Hellcats. Record setting Comp eliminator cars are double that. Most on here would want a tall deck block which is not what Book wants as short deck motors make more power as he has proven time and time again. He would like to have blocks cast so he can continue building, developing, and selling these engines but there needs to be enough serious interest and commitment to buy to make it worthwhile to cast the blocks. I have no idea how many would need to be cast to make it worthwhile for whomever has it done, but it would be safe to say more than 12. Sure you could have a one off cast block made at a lot of foundries around the country, but the cost would be very very high. I believe Wayne county had a few done back in the 90s, cast somewhere in Ohio, but they had mopar backing to do it. There are so many different variations that guys want, it probably will never happen, if it does, where are the good race heads gonna come from? Edelbrock??? Mopar hasn't made any W9s in 15+ years...

Real question - if Monday morning, Maskin said "Let's build R blocks." how long would it be before someone could make a phone call and have one within a reasonable amount of time? [/quote]

realistically about a year.

realistically about a year. [/quote]


I would bet 3 years unless they had old molds handed to them.

If some one made a good quality 48 degree block that would go from 4" to 4.250 and was 9.350 deck that could be as short as 9" they would sale a bunch..i see people paying 3000 to 5000 for R3 blocks now.

I personally think the Ritter blocks would be a good option now. However they are so tarred by all the problems the first ones had many people will not consider them.

I have no dog in this fight, I have three R3 blocks that will take care of my needs deep unto the future.

I shared the Facebook post because I thought it would be of interest to many in the group.

We need a good reasonable 340 based block that can be used for street and race. They would sell the best. All out race block would not sell as good, my 2cents

I agree. I believe thats a much bigger field of people.

I would bet 3 years unless they had old molds handed to them. [/quote]


10-15 years ago yes ,
with todays rapid sand casting proto typing, Molds for cores could take as little as 2 weeks depending on how many core molds you need, most engine blocks are 14-18 core molds.
With 3d mapping you could take a stock 340 or R3 Block map it out create the molds...max 2 weeks to make the molds....it just takes someone with money and the willingness to take the chance.

Last year when my cousin and I shopped around our G3 block, with our molds we had quotes for delivery in as little as 9 months. at $950K-1m up front I could get 500-600 blocks over 1 year......what are the chances we could sell that many in a year?

No one has belly ached about the price because dart has a reputation of making decent stuff at a fair price.

I agreee it needs to be a copy of an R3, or even an X block with roller cam provisions, KISS. Make it sturdy and let the high dollar guys spend the money doing the fancy upgrades. You won't sell many trying to sell just to the big dollar guys, only so many people can afford $6000 blocks, if you build a $3000 block there is a whole lot bigger market.

I paid $1200.00 in 1994, for a new P5249447 R1 9.560. FYI.

not to be a smarty pants but what would that be in 2018 dollars.

About $2030.00🙃

I'LL TAKE 2 PLEASE.

For the high comp eliminator stuff it would be a very different configuration. He'd want it with around a 8.2" D/H etc.

Bob's initial posts from FB are copied and posted below:

I'm having discussions with Richard Maskin about the possibility of Dart starting to produce SBM blocks but he isn't convinced the market exists. I need all the feedback I can get to determine is it's a viable project for Dart to pursue in the future. I have my own specific needs but in order for it to be profitable he'd have to sell ALOT of blocks. Fire away......

Would anyone with serious interest in SBM blocks from Dart please E-Mail me all you contact info @ bookracing@aol.com so I can start to determine i f the market is big enough to justify their getting involved. Please include quantity and description of block/blocks that you're interested in. PLEASE FOLLOW THROUGH!! This may be our last best chance to ever have a quality foundation for the SBM!!

Mason Baxter shared a link.
Yesterday at 07:21
!!!!!!!! ATTENTION EVERYONE !!!!!!!

Send you in your request for R3 Blocks to bookracing@ aol.com

This is not a pre order list but a list to show Dart we are serious. They are considering reproducing the R3 and R4 blocks !!

I have been hearing for years guys crying about no R3 blocks. Well this our time to step up and let Dart know we are a viable brand.

Send in what you would plan to buy in the next year.

Deck height:
Lifter Angle:
Main Bearing:
Quantity:

Send it to bookracing@aol.com

Anyone whom is genuinely interested, email Bob

That’s right where I paid for my P4876671AD in 2012. It showed 2 in the system, then 1 after I ordered mine. About the time we were dynoing my present mill I tried to order the last one and it kicked it back unavailable.

Well we should be on the dyno very soon with our big port Brett Miller victors and Ritter block so stay tuned I’ll start a post when we’re up and running

Jason

Hope it works out Jason..... that is still to my knowledge the ONLY set of those heads that have been put to use in any degree.

Jay

Good luck on getting those SB's into production from dart who would think in 2018 we will still be searching for blocks........big and small

Just out of intrest,if you google Up creek garage here in Australia and go to our work you can see how a 1909 Grand Prix engine block was created using 3d printing/pattern making etc.There is a video from the 730 report on how it was done.I can find out roughly how much is was to do one a mate has the same problem and knows the owner,it would have been expensive but they had patterns made,so i can be done but obviously it costs.The CSIRO also do printed titanium rapid prototyping,last time i spoke to them it was $750 aussie dollars per kilo for "stuff"u send the cad program.

10-15 years ago yes ,
with todays rapid sand casting proto typing, Molds for cores could take as little as 2 weeks depending on how many core molds you need, most engine blocks are 14-18 core molds.
With 3d mapping you could take a stock 340 or R3 Block map it out create the molds...max 2 weeks to make the molds....it just takes someone with money and the willingness to take the chance.

Last year when my cousin and I shopped around our G3 block, with our molds we had quotes for delivery in as little as 9 months. at $950K-1m up front I could get 500-600 blocks over 1 year......what are the chances we could sell that many in a year? [/quote]

The question is not "Can it be done" it is "can you sell them"
R3 is out dated with the heads that are available.
Now an R3 with P7 or P5 heads! Now you have something that most want and need.
Matt

CSIRO has a Voxeljet printer that prints the sand cores. If you are doing one or two castings, it can be more economical than making patterns. Ex One make a machine that does the same thing. They also make a machine that prints metal parts using a similar process (Metal powder with a binder). The part has to be fired afterwards, and is very similar to a casting once done.
https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/MF/Areas/Metals/Lab22/Delage

CSIRO use an electron beam 3D printer, not sure how they arrive at the $750 a kilo price tag, their machine must be more expensive to run than the SLM printers we have at my work.

Curious, is all this new tech also suitable for heads, meaning maybe, a small run of alum Slant 6 heads?

The Voxeljet printer would be able to do the cores I'd imagine. Someone has to still do the CAD. Not sure at what point (I mean quantity) that making the patterns would be more economical. The cost per item doesn't change with 3D printing the sand cores, so you may find doing it 3 or 4 heads, you may be better off making patterns. I have been meaning to look in to it for myself for some transmission cases.

A short deck might be nice for huge budget builders but again they are a very small part of the potential market. The best volume seller is going to be hands down a std deck height, most bracket and street racers are going big cube strokers because it is so easy even in a stock block and the problem is a stock block can EASY swallow 4.25 inch strokes (440ish CID) then bolt on some 1/2 decent victor-W8-W9... and you will break the block, maybe the decks could be cast with enough extra meat to lop off 1/2 inch if you have unlimited budgets and want or need a short stroke high RPM deal. They would not have to actually machine and sell short deck blocks but the block could be turned into one if so desired by the guys who can afford to actually do those type engines. As for main bearing size do it in std 340 size, a 360 crank can be turned down but not the other way around and the rich guys can figure out a way to run smaller journals (bearing spacers, weld up re-machine) if the rest of the block fits their needs. The only two things I personally would want that a lot of guys may not apreciate is siamese bores and head bolts anchored way down low to spread the clamping load better across the deck but I could live without either, if I got both for $3000 in a "check and run" condition I would buy one in a heart beat.

Another can of worms.

There is certainly a hole in the market, but I've no intention of filling it. I want to do a handful of 904 cases for myself, that a Reid bell bolts too.

Yes an SFI approved case for a 904 would be great!

My next trans is a Reid SFI TH400.
Done with searching for cores.
What would be fantastic is the new 8 speed trans!
Being able to control that would be very beneficial.
Matt

Go Jason Go!

As soon as I get mine back I'll post what I can.

Brett Miller W9/Ritter

Would be nice to see a good block available!