Engine condition Opinions?

Hey guys, here are some photos of the engine from my 1978 Dodge Ramcharger.It all looks pretty good to me.I have very little money and just want a good running stock-ish motor.If the pistons and bores look ok do you think I can just button it back up with new gaskets and call it good?I will be putting in a Hughes "whiplash" can and converting to Fitech fuel injection.It's getting a new oil pump and water pump for sure.It did not have steel shim head gaskets in it and it has flat top pistons....would this have been stock in 1978?Thanks for your help!

more photos

still more.....

last ones.....

How many miles on the engine.. do you have equipment
to measure the bores.. it might need valve springs
and a valve job

mileage may be 113,000 not completely sure.

Looks like a pretty good ridge at the top of the bores. Are you going to hone it for new rings?

See the tan exhaust valve on the end of the head? They should ALL look like that one....those other cylinders were not getting hot enough, indicating poor compression or not firing for some reason.....I would have serious doubts about just putting this back together and hoping it was good.

Any tips on pulling the main bearing caps?The fsm calls for a C3059 removal tool, but there are none to rent.I punched out all the freeze plugs in the block and it was full of this grey sludge.Maybe I should just pull all the pistons and the cam, then send the crank,block and heads to the machine shop to be checked out.I do want to do this correctly, just don't have thousands of dollars to spend.I have posted a picture of the back of the dampner...it is ruined or salvageable?I did find mention of the "Maltese cross plus X" stamped on the engine pad,in the FSM and will alert the machine shop.

I'd go with numbering rods, pull the motor apart looking everything over carefully, and having a qualified machine shop measure everything, to find out where you're at now.
What's that orange stuff in the valley?
Looks like a pretty big ridge in the bores, also maybe issues with oil consumption & leakage. Dampener rubber ring looks rotted. '78 would have low CR, and I'd definitely bump that to a real 9:1. To me, that increase in efficiency & torque is more important than having a rumpity cam in an SUV.
Compare price to rebuild the heads (valve job, guides/seals/springs) vs aftermarket Stealths/Eddys/etc - last set of Stealths I bought were from an unbuilt project, there are some deals out there. By the same token, every Eddy & Stealth head I've had got some more work done, but some guys are happy with 'em out of the box. Your crank & rods should be OK with little work.

IMO the most affordable way forward is someone else's running engine.

Who cares about all the stamping numbers? in the real world they mean nothing. 2 ways to go. Add the cam and hope for the best, or. Measure and then decide what'll fly and what won't. To me the bore finish doesn't look that great. I'd bet at a minimum it needs a timing chain, maybe bearings and valve springs. Very probable; guides and valve work. And if we're getting picky bore, hone, pistons, rings, rod rebuild crank turn, balance. Now will it run without? Yes. Will it make max power? No. Will it blow up? Maybe. Here's where someone with a LOT of experience can take a look and give a guess. And that all it is, a guess. You can clean it up and add a cam, springs, timing chain, valve springs. If it fails, the cost outlay is minimal. Or you can spend and it will be better. How much better? Depends how bad the current stuff is.
Doug

Why did you open it up? Most I’d have done was throw a chain in it, probably do all gaskets if it was out. You really cant win a game like this. Looks like it needs a basic rebuild and a low comp 440 needs pistons to really do what you want any way. I always tell guys not to mess with a running engine. Most people are way better off adding some oil every so often or a can of restore than doing a tear down without a plan for a full reboot in there.

loosen the bolts & hold em halfway up in the cap then wiggle the assy sideways & up as they loosen & come free. You dont want bolt thread protruding past the cap bolt hole bases so as to not nick the crank journal when the cap comes free. wiggle it back & forth carefully & take more care when you sense it is about to come free (nicking the journal is what you are trying to avoid). get 1/2/4/5 out then lift one end of the crank slightly to get the #3 cap starting to come up then work with it till it gets free. Reminds me that I am going to drill/tap my next one on top for threads so I can slide hammer em out

The main problem with those late model big blocks is that they had very low compression. The pistons were way down in the hole. And that made them very prone to detonation even on the gas you could get then.

And I agree that the pistons and heads look like they have not been burning clean.

Use the money that you would have spent on the FI on the inside of the engine now and get a good carb like the Street Demon. You can always add the FI later if you want. It will be better and cheaper by then.

Its all about measuring, take it apart clean each part, measure each part, compare your measurements to specifications, and then decide to reuse the part as is, have it reconditioned, or replace it. From your picture it looks like a decent rebuildable core engine.

Mopar has always numbered the rods and main caps as long as I have been taking them apart, starting with the mid 1950 Chrysler Fire Power hemi motors
GM didn't though
OP, on your deal that motor is talking to you, it is hollering for some serious help
Your on the correct path on taking it to a good machine shop for measuring the cylinder bores for wear and taper. I would bet a lot of money that the heads need new valve guides and a valve job also, sorry
Good luck on this project, do it right once or regret it forever
BTW, if your going to have it bored look for pistons for the 1972 to 1974 400 magnum motors or look at some decent Hyper quench pistons from Keith Black

Yep...fuel injection is out for this year.I am going to pull the pistons and cam, then send the rest to the machine shop.What they tell me will determine the next steps to take.Any suggestions on a piston/cam combo that is affordable, efficient and will run on pump gas?Remember this is all about low end torque and good manners.

Good for you. In the long run you're making the best choice even to give up the efi for now.

Pulled the pistons last night and cleaned the bores.The ridge isn't as bad as it looks in the pictures.The crank journals look perfect and the rods seem ok although 1 is a bit tight.Will get the taper and wear measured by a machinist today.Do you guys have any other recommendations on what stock pistons would be best for better compression?I am going to try and find the best used set of pistons I can to save money.Thanks!

I know money can be tight, but I'd save up to rebuild the engine correctly. To me, the path your taking with the engine is likely to result in problems and you will be re-doing the engine again shortly after getting it back together.

DO get prices written down by your machine shop before you spend a nickel.
Measure how far down in the bore the pistons are at TDC. They could be 0.185" down. Those latest model RBs ran about 7.2:1 actual compression.

Assume that the valves need to be ground and that probably means new guides. You need at least stock HP springs, but really you need whatever springs your cam manufacturer calls out.

For stock heads the KB step dome pistons like the KB184 work to get squish into the chamber. They are stock replacement weight so no rebalancing. There will probably be an extra step in the machining process but it's worth it.

I've reused quite a few cranks without machine work. I've done the same with stock rods. On cranks the major wear happens on the underside of the rod journal. Check for consistent diameters around the journal.

On rods if you reuse the stockers pay attention as you're torqueing the rod bolts. If the bolt is going to yield you'll pull the average amount for the other bolts but the torque doesn't increase, if a click type the wrench never clicks. Before you spend any money on stock rods, consider the 440Source stock replacement rods for $250.

R.

The head gaskets make me uneasy because I don't think they're stock, meaning someone has been in the engine before.

I finally realized that your working on a 440 pick up truck motor, not a 400
Check on the prices to fix your heads and if it costs you more than $700.00 to $800.00 I would buy a new set of aluminum heads like the 440 Source brand or Eddy E heads for a little more money or maybe some of the other cheaper China import 440 aluminum heads
They will flow better and make more torque and HP and run better on todays pump fuel also
On the piston selection wait until you know which cylinder heads your going to use and the combustion chamber size and metal type, if you use new aluminum heads you can run more compression safely than you can with the same size combustion chambers with a iron head
Check with United machine on their Silvolite cast piston line for your rebuild. I would shoot for less than 9.5 to 1 compression ratio with iron heads and less than 10.5 to 1 with aluminum heads

Maltese cross and X are factory undersize crank

Ive done simple hone,re-ring,bearings, valve job and a good cam on low comp mopars and pont. big blocks and even ran a 150 shot on them from time to time and they lasted 40-60k of fun hard street bashing way back in the 80-s and would even beat a improperly built car from time to time.

What was the good stocker vert, the "J".

They were strong enough to break fresh trannys and rear diffs and the worst I ever did it break a oem timing chain.

I think alot forget what we used to do and had a heck of a good time doing it.

That may be true, but we have different fuels today and different expectations.

Someone's been in there before, no doubt about that.

A set of TRW 2355's would bump up the compression and weigh close enough to stock pistons that you could think about squeeking by without balancing. They would be a good choice if you were looking at an aftermarket closed chambered head. A rumpety cam like that hughes whiplash really has no place in a truck with efi and a low-cr engine.

I thought that was the express purpose for the whiplash cam....to wake up a low compression smog motor like mine?

a couple more photos...it's on a pallet and off to the machine shop.I let you know what they tell me in about a week.Wish me luck!

You have to have the ridge removed if you want to put in a taller CH piston in there, otherwise it might break piston rings.

Yes but in a car with 4.10 gears not a 4x4. The whiplash cams are ground for low vacuum at idle and a rumpety idle for more show than go. Not usually a good choice for an efi system.

I would go through it, if it were mine. The bores look like crap, everything looks sludged up, and it probably needs rings and a valve job at the least. Also, lifters, cam and m,ore compression as mentioned. IMO, you'll be sorry if you don't.

Best advice I can give you is to save your money and build it right the first time.
Save for the following:

Lightweight forged aluminum pistons

H beam rods

Hyd roller cam and lifters

Aluminum heads. Cheap aluminum heads will be better than and cost the same as prepped stock heads.

Aluminum dual plane intake

You will have a very nice reliable 446ci engine that will make decent horsepower

I stopped into the machine shop today and got good and bad news.The block needs to be bored, but everything else is in really great shape.The crank is not undersized as the stamping indicates and the heads have already been done at some point.Valves and springs look new, seats were all good and guides are all within spec.Now I need advice on which pistons to get.1978 stock silv-o-lites, 1967 higher compression 350NP-30's, KB184's or maybe speedpro forged....I don't know.Will get new stock pushrods and the stock rockers look fine.This is all about budget.I want a nice running motor, but not a dog.I need low compression cam advice too!

If you're getting new pistons, get something that is close to zero deck so you will get some compression, at least 9.5:1. The old Silv-o-lite's will work great. That will help and then some type of RV cam to top it off. With new oils today make sure you get oils with zink and or add a lot of it. Flat tappet cams need it and you will kill the cam without it.

Clean EVERYTHING! Use a break-in oil, I know you said budget but this is insurance. Break in the cam and dump the oil. Make sure you keep it clean and change the oil often in the beginning.

KB-237 for pistons

I am leaning towards the Speed Pro L2266F30 set with Hastings moly rings for around $395 @ Summit. I can get a set of 350NP-30 with iron rings @ Falcon Global for $315.Is forged with moly rings overkill on a stock low budget rebuilt motor?

What would the specs on a proper RV type cam be for a motor with around 9 to 1 compression? Sorry for my ignorance on cam selection.Falcon has this cam for $85 ...any good?

yes overkill, this is a low RPM truck torque build. I would suggest some eBay cast cheapies/moly rings or kb hypers (which are way better but more $$) and you need more compression which the KB's would give you & you likely could get quench if you go with some aftermarket closed chamber heads & carefull measureing & as said heads are gonna be the big expense on this as rebuilding a set of iron stockers can approach a set of aluminum aftermarket ones (stealths) tho you might be able to get by with a valve job (odds ain't good) & are they flat tho with composition head gaskets you can have a bit of warp & they lower your already low SCR as opposed to the OE steel shim thin head gaskets. I would get some plasma moly rings (& cast pistons off of eBay) & after the shop bores/hones, you do a quick hone with a Brush Research Manufacturing dingle berry hone for moly rings and your bore size or have them do it (its worth it).

I think those are the flat top no valve relief pistons that have a really short compression height. Look into wisco pro tru street. Comes with moly rings and the price will be close to the 2266 with rings.

here: wiseco summit

Won't be zero deck but a lot closer than the 2266's.

I hate being the buzzkill on this post but...........

Those speed pro pistons are absolutely horrible. They are extremely heavy and won’t do your old “maybe they will be ok with those heavy pistons stock connecting rods” . I’ve been doing this long enough to know that you really need to consider spending some money to build the 440 correctly.

Here are some bare minimums that I would consider mandatory:

Purchase lightweight forged pistons/ KB 237 piston would be a decent option as well to save money.

Have the stock rods resized with new ARP bolts.

Have the rotating assembly balanced.

If you change pistons, it really should be re-balanced. And new rod bolts and resizing the rods is also a very good idea. There goes a few hundred dollars.

How far out of spec are the cylinder bores? Keeping in mind that the budget is the prime motivator, why not just re-ring it?

If the cylinders aren't a train wreck, you might think about a hone job and throwing some new rings in along with new bearings and calling it good.

Way back when, we used to do that all the time. I remember knurling pistons that were way out of spec for the cylinders. It worked well in low speed applications. You can get several years out of a cheapy job like that if the pistons don't flop around in the cylinders too much. And of course, they make rings just for this.

It might be best to either do a full-on economy assembly or a full-on re-build. Not something in between.

Budget I just wanna drive my truck a bit this year!The guy said it was just inside .007 spec is .005 to .007 I guess.I would love to do exactly as you say Dave.I will call them Monday morning.
i can save a bunch of money by using Enginetech bearings as opposed to Clevite 77...thoughts?

I forgot...here is a couple of videos of the actual engine running and the truck driving.Keep in mind there is a broken header tube , so a bad leak.Listen and tell me what you think.Thanks 1st run after sitting for years https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsCII5P99vc after tuneup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjkuQH5NZc0 driving around https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVF3z5sacmo

Skip the EFI, put the money inside the engine.

Good oil, proper clearances, and low RPM doesn't require premium parts to live.

Dave, what do you think of this Howard's grind?

As stated the 2266 piston is terrible. They will be at least.060 -.080 in the hole. With an iron open chamber head thats a bad combo. No compression no quench. It'll run but it won't be efficient. You should try to get a piston with a 2.060- 2.065 compression hgt. Get your short block together then pic your cam. Do it right or you may pay later. Ask me how I know..

That is certainly a mild cam. Why not just us a stock, original cam? There are a lot of them lying around and they have proven themselves to be very reliable.

Well you bastards talked me into it, I have decided to invest in the bottom end of this motor. I am going to get a set of Wiseco Pro Tru pistons and moly rings #PTS531A3. Only $92.77 more than the stock 350np's @ $411. I am also going to buy the 440 Source rods at $250 and use Clevite 77 bearings. I've already got a Melling HV oil pump. What other suggestions do you have to spend my money on this bottom end? I will use mls head gaskets to reduce the CR a bit and probably use the Howards RV cam with all stock valve train parts.I am not going to put another dollar into the heads,intake ect.Please feel free to tell me what I am forgetting/missing...many thanks!

I am going to get the Summit SUM-6400 cam and lifter kit as it is better than stock and you can't beat the price at $117.My question is how should I install the cam for my application...straight up or advanced?Also, it is a cast crank motor...what should I do about balancing?I don't have the rods yet, but when they arrive I will weigh both new and old assemblies and post up the difference.Also any thoughts on what I should do about a distributor and the ignition timing.Thanks in advance for your help!

stock weight 1940 grams

I would install the cam so the intake lobe centers at max lift are from 109 to 106 after top dead center(what ever you can get ) , that will advance the cam from 3 to 6 crankshaft degrees and increase the bottom end HP and torque as well as giving up some power above 5000 RPM
On the ignition I would recurve the stock distributor if it has mechanical advance built in it so it has between 14 to 18 degrees at idle and no more then 36 degree total advanced revved up high enough to make sure the mechanical advance is maxed out
Mr gasket sells the advance springs so you can change them to make the advance come in sooner, another help on low RPM power

Thank you Mr.Cab, any thoughts on balancing?

I would have it done by a good shop
There are two different weights involve in rotating assembly, the individual and total weights of each reciprocating and rotating parts and the rotational weights of the components, this is probably not the correct terms to describe what I mean but if you don't own or have access to a good automotive balancing machine have a good shop balance the rotating assembly for you

Finally got all my stuff back from the machine shop, but I have 2 stupid questions.Is the rear most cam bearing supposed to have 1 oil hole or 3?The 1 oil hole in it is not aligned perfectly either...I am not to happy.I can't look at a set locally as no one has one in stock.Also, the block came back with nothing done to the chamfer at the top of the bores.You can actually feel a ridge at the very top.The block was not decked so it was like this from the factory.The Don Taylor book mentions that you can do this your self.Thoughts?

cam bearings only need a 1/16" dia lube hole so if you have that much area left from how they clocked em you are fine but it would make me wonder about their meticulousness cuz that operation is a no brainer. any more than that is a waste of precious psi & the as produced cam bearing drilled hole is much bigger than 1/16" (the 2 that feed the heads-1/8" needed).