Building a HP 440 with Factory Manifolds

Looking for advice - if I insist on using the factory manifolds in my 440 / B - body, does it make sense to consider stoker kits or aluminum heads? Or would that be a waste of money?

Not a waste of money at all. I run a low deck 512 in my B body car. It has ported Edelbrock heads and HP cast iron manifolds. The trick is getting the right cam ground for the engine. You don't want a lot of overlap with the manifolds.

Another thing to consider is going with EFI. EFI also works great with less overlap so the two work well together. You can build a really smooth quiet engine that will pull like a freight train. Make it 500 inches with ported aluminum heads, cast iron manifolds and EFI.

Cool stands for the front! And the look that car has is just mean! Polish all the trim and leave it old paint and rock it! You build some really nice cars!

I really like that car. Nothing to add about the manifolds, though.

I think it makes sense. But that's just me.

Trick stuff Andy. what is the OD of the ex pipes?

I use 3 inch pipes coming off the manifolds. We custom built them since nobody sold this stuff back in the 90's when I built this car. These days someone might have 3 inch head pipes.

The exhaust manofilds can benefit from a combination of porting and extrude honing the intake.There are many upgrades that have been proven by the F.A.S.T. and Ralphs SUPERCARSERIES.Take some of those tricks and appy as you con.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj_p3GitRcs

TTI has 3" headpipes for the b-body manifolds. I have some. Nice thick flanges.

You will need the manifold casting numbers to get the correct pipes.

I would suggest defining exactly what the goals for the build are, then determine if all the parameters can be met within the budget....... Without using headers.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking it will make just as much power without the headers....... It won't.

I've dynoed quite a few FAST builds, and I can tell you that's really the hard way to try and make power.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking it will make just as much power without the headers....... It won't.
This^^^

Better heads: definitely, more flow without extending cam duration.

What will help, but it's a PITA (if you can fit them at all): 1" thick steel exhaust flange as a spacer between the manifolds and the head (with longer studs). If you can't water-jet etc. you could use 3 X 3/8" common flanges each side.
1. straighter path for gas leaving the port before the turn
2. more volume inside the casting
3. keeps the pulses separated longer before merge
Yes, 6" thick would be better, but...

[quote=AndyF]Not a waste of money at all. I run a low deck 512 in my B body car. It has ported Edelbrock heads and HP cast iron manifolds. The trick is getting the right cam ground for the engine. You don't want a lot of overlap with the manifolds.

Can I ask you for a suggestion for a roller cam with cast iron manifolds (lot of overlap)...
My 451 with 3.23 rear end street tires 1967 Charger run 109.26 12.87 with stock Magnum cam and I wish go roller cam with manifolds
Thanks
https://youtu.be/tt-x-_3jjmE

I have a 67 Charger with a 451 low deck. Unported Stealth heads SD intake and 74 magnum exhaust manifolds and TTI head pipes.

The cam is a comp 308 roller

The car has ladder bars with 4500 stall and 4.1 gears.

It ran 12.0 @ 111 mph

I didn't run it very much in this configuration. I quickly installed a set of hooker competition headers.

It has ran a best of 11.53@116 after a little bit of tuning with headers.

I never drove it on the street so I am not sure what its manners are like. It seems fine in the pits, starts really well.

This was not the best choice but it was what I had.

I hate long tubes headers, but discovered I wasn't a fan of exhaust manifolds either - they really do make it a PITA to reach the plugs. I ended up having a set of shorty headers custom made with 1 7/8" primary tubes and 3" outlets. Couldn't be happier.

The FAST motors I've tested were all serious underachievers when considering the amount of time, effort, and $$$ invested.
That's just the nature of the beast with those things, and a build not required to be legal for the class would certainly be able to bring the numbers up a bit by not having to use the stock heads and intake manifolds.
However, running the non-scavanging exhaust manifolds does impose some limits on the parts choices.

It does not sound like the OP is suggesting or hoping to match header power with manifolds.

My junk is pretty simple. 120 mph at 4150 lb in a car with basically a stock factory suspension. Seems like okay power to me. If it were any faster I'd need a roll bar, and that is not going to happen. It will drive through the neighbor at 1100 rpm in third gear with no problem.

I did choose to purchase a roller cam, but here is what I did not have to purchase: headers, starter, 3" exhaust, converter, gear, tires.

Certainly not the fastest car around, but I wish I had a dollar for every header car I've spanked.

Personally, I would not put headers on a from scratch build unless I was also planning to install a roll bar.

As mentioned, it is a matter of what the OPs goals are.

Thank you, I will check their site.

I hope you're only talking about exhaust manifolds.

Extrude honing has fallen out of favor. The results aren't worth the price. I'm guessing a cost of between $50 and $100 per horsepower. https://boneheadperformance.com/extrude-honing/extrude-hone-pricing/
As famous engine builder Joe Sherman said, "It is a total big waste of money==TOO BAD".

Increasing flow in the cylinder head allows one to use a smaller camshaft for the same power. Getting air into the engine is more difficult than getting it out because less pressure available to push it in than to push it out. So good heads will always help.

Making the engine bigger may not increase the horsepower if the engine is flow-limited, but it does move the torque curve down the rpm scale and thus the vehicle feels much stronger. So for a street driven vehicle, assuming you can get grip, the larger engine will always feel more powerful. Alternately, you can decrease the gear ratio and keep the vehicle feeling the same.

R.

Bsb...

I've always felt your combo is one of the most impressive combos on this board.👍👍

How do you guys get around the plug clearance problem with Edlebrock heads and HP manifolds? Don't the angled plugs get really close to the heat?

You don't. I kept frying the #7 plug boot. It was my own stupid fault for buying Edelbrock heads. I knew there was better heads on the market with straight plugs. In the end this was my solution:





Shorty headers as I didn't want the headache of long tubes. Decided to have them made out of stainless while I was at it.

Edelbrock E Street 84cc heads have straight plugs.

I used the Mopar 452 heads (straight plug version of the Edelbrocks). There is a lot more clearance with the straight plug heads. Previously I had run the angle plug heads and had problems burning up one or two of the spark plug leads so I switched heads.

What you really want from a clearance standpoint is an angle plug head on the driver side and a straight plug head on the pass side. That would work the best for the spark plug wires.

Interesting. Maybe I'll snag one 452 head for the passenger side.

Thanks

dogdays on point, as usual.

Shorties for street = excellent. Equal length highly over-rated for a engine with limited RPM and "warm" cam with moderate OL and wide LSA.

More trouble, more $$$, less efficient than shorties (but better than manifolds and very tight for clearance): fabrication from "weld ells".

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/10hpmanifoldshookersupercompheadersonbigblockangle.php

Spark Plug Clearance Click On Link

I am running the 75cc E Street Heads - I have not seen any issues yet but not a lot of miles with the HP Manifolds

Great replies - thanks everyone keep them coming,,,,

Are the 75cc heads angle-plug? The Edelbrock website shows angle plugs on the E-Street page, and I can't find any other pics of these heads on their website.

Subscribed, as I'm building a HP manifold engine myself...

Clair

Andy, a little off the topic, but where did you get those exhaust gaskets?

Those are motor home gaskets. They extend upwards a few inches to protect the valve cover and valve cover gasket from the heat. I always use them with HP manifolds.

Yes

Fel Pro MS90425 Exhaust Manifold Gaskets With Heat Shields

Ok, I didn’t ask that well- it looks like all the e-sreets are angle plug on the EB website, but some are clearly straight. Is the EB website wrong, and are the 84cc heads actually straight? Angle plugs don’t work with c-body hp’s and I need to go with straight plugs.

Thanks,

Clair

I don't know if the 84cc E Street heads were always straight plug, but they are now...... And there is a foot note in the catalog saying so.
The 75cc version are still angled plugs.

Perfect, thank you! Too bad EB doesn't have that note on their e-street page - kind of important, and was going to cost them a sale. I've been banking on using the Source Stealth heads on my stock-appearing build because they were about the only straight-plug option. The USA-made E-streets also flow a little better OOTB, too.

Thanks again!

Clair

i know that ehrenberg sells those gaskets
Is there another source ?

Summit shows that the Fel-Pro PN is available through them for $10. Autozone can get them for $11.