Stupid questions????

Could someone school me on box racing .. I mean I know nothing and I mean nothing about it ... please explain it to me like a 3 year old .. thanks guys.

I'll take a shot...it's really pretty simple, the term "box" is referring to the delay box (basically a timer) built by numerous manufactures that allows you through practice and learning your body's reaction time combined with your cars reaction time to release the transbrake button on the top bulb instead of footbraking off of the bottom bulb. The advantage is that it allows you to train yourself to leave off of the first flash of yellow on the top bulb rather that "guessing" when yellows go off or come on based on your and your cars reaction to the bottom bulbs, lots of guys are really good footbrake racers but to me it's much easier to train your eyes and body to leave off of the first flash of yellow at the top of the tree. There are now crossover delay boxes that will do the math for you based on you and your opponents et, back when I started using delay boxes we had to carry a calculator to work the difference so I could leave off of the opponents top yellow...hence being able to leave on the first flash of yellow, since most trees are shielded nowadays it doesn't matter, you just leave off your side of the tree and the delay box does the math...NORMALLY...a box racer has a sizeable advantage over a footbrake racer (due to more consistent and better lights) which is why at most tracks they separate the classes. I hope this helps maybe others will chime in...I have grossly oversimplified the process but maybe it helps a little.

Box racing= LGBT
No box= NRA

Just kidding... I’m interested too.

Most of the fast guys in "no box" release the trans. brake button as well. These guys adjust the "delay" with longer throw buttons and blinders and different tire sizes and starting line rpms. The list is very long for the fast cars in "no box" to keep from going red. A "box" is just a timer to react to the top bulb or pro tree. The average human can react in .3XX of a second where a full tree is .500 between yellows and green. A pro tree is .400 (.500 Super Street only) and I believe they made it like .390 for Pro Stock Motorcycle. With, say, a 2,100lb. Super Gas car, with 1,100 hp, on a .400 tree, you are going to go red every time unless you add some delay to when the trans. brake actually releases. You see the light, you let go, the .050 of delay happens and then the trans. brake releases and away you go. Remember folks, a TON of races are decided by .00X or less. Anything you can do to the car or driver to tighten up those packs will result in a LOT of fun turning on those W lights.

On most trees now, both top yellows come on together and then on the fast car's side, there is a delay before the second yellow comes on and the tree continues down. This eliminates the crossover and arithmetic needed to figure the number to use. Essentially, it turns a full tree into a pro tree with both drivers reacting to the flash.

A delay box is electrical and requires use of a transbrake. Release the button on the flash, the box delays release of the brake a preset amount of time. The ET difference if you are the faster car, half a second for the second and third bulbs on a .500 tree, and whatever fine adjustment needed for car and driver reaction times before the tire clears the beam.

Delay boxes were invented to keep from red lighting with a fast car on a pro tree. It's pretty simple. This is part of the thing that makes Comp. Eliminator so cool. No boxes allowed with ultra light and fast cars.

LOL, delay boxes are actually in Wikipedia...there's lots more in there this is just an excerpt... "Delay Box" is a common slang term used in drag racing to describe an on-board timer which is a Transmission Brake Delay Timer. A transbrake forces the race car to remain stationary at the starting line, in gear, regardless of how much engine power is applied. When the visual signal is given to start the race, the driver triggers the delay box to begin timing (precisely counting down). If the driver does not interrupt this timing device, the car is launched down the race track at the instant the timer expires (counts to zero). Delay box use was very controversial in the 1980s and 1990s, as it removed a portion of the advantages more experienced racers had. There was a period where technologists added and concealed homemade circuitry inside a delay box that violated some racing associations rules. Racing associations have imposed strict limits on delay boxes today, with manufacturers having to submit to an approval process, which has drastically reduced the number of makers of these." Some interesting history in there

Division 1 bracket racing in the 80's were interesting to say the least. "Who's cheating" was the topic of conversation. Then you had sensors that caught the flash of the tree, caught the light beams from the timing beams down track, Matty boxes, wheel speed and ground speed sensors, micro processors, slew rate controls, etc, etc.

X2

It's a way for people with more money than talent to win races.

I think that kind of goes both ways. Like your comment. Drag racing is generally a roll of the dice. Any opponent, in any class, at any time, can completely WHACK!!! your a$$.

Do you really believe that
I know a lot of rich racers that haven't won a race in their entire career, it does take talent, practice and patience to learn on how to adjust the box to the driver and car
I know other wealthy racers, male and female, that took time to learn to race and drive with no boxes that won a lot of races, especially heads up, no break out racing That type of racing takes a lot money, work and talent

Within their respective catagories, yes it takes talent. But most people look at the reaction times of a box vs no box racer, and sees closer rt's with a box racer. I drive a stick, and believe that I will win on my own merit.

Cool, this thread got interesting, I was a poor boy bracket racer from 1977 until 2010, foot brake racing my 4 speed GTX then in order...a 69 Barracuda, a 137" slingshot front engine dragster, and my first rear engine dragster in 1989...all footbrake, winning was sporadic at best, in 1990 I built my first transbrake car, no delay box, got my arsh whipped on a regular basis by delay box cars, put a delay box in the car in 1992, still got my arsh whipped, it wasn't until 1993 that I started figuring it out, ran 3 more rear engine dragsters until 2010, 3 gold cards, 2 Wally's, 1 track championship, numerous big money wins, pretty much paid for my habit from 1996 until 2010 when I quit. Now...box vs no box, I don't care whether you are either...nowadays it takes (and back then) AT LEAST 3 things to win, the ability to cut a light, the ability to drive the stripe and a car you trust to know what it's going to do and this applies to either box or no box, both require TALENT, in my opinion...to some degree...money does not factor in, I've seen some of the best bracket racers win driving absolute bailing wired together junk and high dollar show cars...keep in mind most of the best bracket racers and/or S/C S/G S/S racers are racing somewhere almost every weekend...practice, practice, practice...

Could someone explain multiple hits with a delay box? I know you can react off of your opponent’s first amber light and your own amber light.
How does the delay box choose which ever was the quicker of the reaction times?

Excellent question...it's somewhat of a crapshoot...the delay box will take the quicker or "shorter" timer...it's a "seat of the pants" thing for the driver...if you feel you "missed" the first release of the button you can re-press the button and re-release it...trick is knowing for sure you "missed" the first release. Most guys I know only used it for a absolutely known first miss...it was a known sure fire way to go RED...lots of guys use a "bump-down" with a pre-set amount in the "bump-down" if they think they missed it the first time...also really sad to bump down your way into being red.

Sure does sound like you don't race, and have never set up and run a delay box car.

Well plenty of people here who know little replying here to a type of racing they obviously know nothing about. The internet go figure....

Yeah, like the guys who thing you can put a throttle stop and timer in the car and make it run what you want like dialing a telephone number. Just like that.

Whoops...didn't mean to spin the lid off that can of worms.

I am by no means an expert, my best E.T. is 12.34 and It was some of the best times of my life when I was bracket racing.
But I remember seeing a television program about drag racing years ago, and they were discussing delay boxes and one point that was brought up was that the human body is more consistent to reacting to something, say the top bulb, then it was to anticipating something, as the green bulb.

When they started giving the reaction time around 1984, the electronics revolution began. There is really no policing it any more, I'm sure the new cars with launch control and traction control could have a feature that would allow it to run 12.000 every time.

Many years ago I heard a fairly high up NHRA person say that the gorilla in the room was the transbrake. Outlaw those and the rest of this stuff is useless. He was probably right. He still works for them and has a fairly high position in the company.

Every divisional or national event I've ever been to I see the NHRA plugging into random racers ignition systems. They police it, believe me! The digital ignitions like the 7530T have a limp mode in them that only NHRA can reset. Barring some MSD employee or electronics wizard. If you try to cheat with that box, the car won't run and then NHRA will want to know why the car won't run. There are some shake/spin, on and off the throttle situations that will put these into limp mode. The crank trigger pick up came loose on my buddy's T/S car and the box sensed something being manipulated and went into limp mode. This is how we found out that NHRA and ONLY NHRA could reset it. It's really quite the feat to work on a car and work on a car and get it to repeat. It's amazing how fast some of these cars are and will repeat within .010. It comes from a lot of hard work and experience. If you get caught cheating, it won't be the NHRA doing the "policing". Get with guys who know how to race and learn from them. Better yet, go to a bracket race and sit at the finish line and watch all the shenanigans going on down there. 6-7 times out of 10 you have to look at the scoreboard to see who won.

I approach racing like this .
I run no box through choice . if box was allowed I would go there .
Better not bring a knife to a gun fight

Tex

I will add that I believe he does not even have a race car or may have never even driven one down the track

A box is just a tool, nothing more, nothing less. If your car is inconsistent or you can't hit the tree with a shovel, all a box will do for you is drain your wallet.

Well all I can say is wow... thank you to most of the responses.. I hit the tree pretty good as of late I really think I need more seat time with this comb but it’s getting upgraded this year so going to be different again next year. So I was debating running a box because I’m going to put a t-brake in this year .. just interested in knowing more about box racing and most of the guys I hang out with are no box guys .. thanks John

LOL, yeah, I was wondering when you were going to come back and see the monster you created...Good luck with whatever you decide and you are correct about seat time...either footbraking or delay box, there is no substitute for seat time

Its simply a different game running box over no box. The BIGGEST thing you will find if you decide to make the switch is that the MOV in Box racing is usually much much tighter than in no box. I have done both and the MOV numbers in box are simply much closer on an average basis. Also you will generally find faster cars in box than no box, which adds another variable especially if you are one of the faster no box guys. You wont win a lot of rounds in box racing being "sloppy" on the tree and not keeping it close up top. Just as when you ad a stop and try running .90 stuff the margins just get that much closer on an average basis. You have to be good at both ends to turn on win lights.

Talked to a buddy yesterday who is a novice Slant racer. He's made a total of 20 passes so far. His lights are all over the place, because he hasn't made many passes. He got canned by a Box car in Clay City. Box guy had an .049 light. Buddy decides he needs a box now and bought a used one off E-bay to run with 4 wheel line locs. He told me he'd never be able to cut good lights footbraking.

I told him the biggest flaw in his theory is he's already convinced himself he can't do it, followed closely by thinking a box will fix his issues.

I'm not a Box racer. But I have been fairly successful foot braking in No Box. The principles are the same. Cut a decent light, determine your finish line strategy, and see what happens. Even in No box the lights are getting tighter and tighter. Not uncommon to see .0X lights and.1X packages. My average light was .030 this year. Only 6 of them beyond .05 all year. Still plenty of room for improvement but getting closer. A brake won't help you at the stripe. There are a lot of racers pretty good at the tree. The other end separates to good from the best.
Doug

I'm a 'box' racer at the starting line and a 'foot braker' at the finish line.

Around here the three main classes are essentially: line lock, trans brake and delay box. The trans brake just allows a driver to rev the engine above the torque converter stall speed without pushing the front tires through the lights, if you feel the need. The delay box just allows the driver to react to an earlier bulb if you think that will help you.

If anyone out there thinks some kind of device will make them a good racer, forget it. Whatever class you choose to run will have everyone using the same rules. If you know what you're doing you should be able to have success in any class. A couple of good topics that could be started are How to cut consistent lights and How to tune and run the car to produce consistent ET's. Once you've got those figured out, driving the stripe gets a LOT easier.

Possibly not so much today but most of your GOOD older box racers were once GOOD foot brake racers. Lol they won without and they win with. Box is just another tool in the toolbox that tightens up your package. You still have to be consistent and have a good car.

Everyone starts with no box. That's how it works. Add a trans. brake? On a good 10.00 or 9 sec.car? I was good for about two races, then the five foot long button happened. Then the long, plastic button on the steering wheel was cooked into a "J" while the wheel basked in the sun on the dash at Famoso. It's tough to leave on the last amber and not go red. And then the work begins...

FWIW I started my son in Super Pro(box). Didn't see the point of starting him anywhere else since his goal was to run fast and eventually get into S/C. We approached it the same way we did with sports. I played college basketball and he had offers to play college baseball. So we took the same approach to racing. We "played up" in the beginning.

Having started in Pro for me and only spending two years there before I moved on I saw no practical reason to start him there. When he was young and had had an affinity for baseball and was a very good player we moved him up with older kids at 9. He played with the 12 year olds. It was a very rough start for him then but it paid off well in the following years. He was forced to get better as he like his father has a competitive streak. Same thing in HS, he decided to try a new position for him as the Varsity team only had one returning catcher left. Same hard start but by the 5th game of the year he was the starter as a freshman. So throwing him to the S/P "wolves" so to speak made the most sense to us. Same thing happened his first year he took a lot of lumps and learned a lot of valuable lessons and got schooled plenty. We tossed him into the big dollar stuff right away. No softballs for him. But he approached it just like baseball. Learn something every pass in the car. He spent a lot of time with me at the finish line watching what was going on and learning the sport. Year two he began winning more and more rounds. By the end of year two he has three wins under his belt. I only see more good things for him. He has been paid compliments for his driving ability for friends of mine who I have the utmost respect for in the racing community. I think starting him off and tasking the same approach we used with sports has paid off. Before he got in the dragster last year he had never raced ANYTHING. Had he entered the points here this year he would have finished 3rd and been in the ROC at the ET Finals. So I think we have made the correct choice. Now everything is apart and the car is getting a remake in hopes he can carry this only to run S/C maybe the end of next year.

Sorry for the long post but proud of what the kid has accomplished. I think approaching this stuff analytically and frame of mind go along way.

The only thing I have to add here are the lessons I have learned racing my daughter in Jr. Dragsters the past 4 years. Racing Jrs is as pure foot brake bracket racing as it gets. She is a very consistent driver and cuts lights like I have never seen. In the past 4 years she has stacked up 8 .000 lights, as well as a slew of .00x and .0xx lights. The trick to being consistent is STAGING, STAGING and STAGING. You can not cut consistent lights NO MATTER WHAT without being consistent in the stage.

I know Jr racing is not Big Car racing, but it is the purest from of bracket racing. She can cut a light and drive the line. She has placed top 5 the past 4 years with culminating in the Championship this year at Numidia. We have won well over 30 events in total over 4 years and placed in the semis and quarter finals twice as many times. Whenever she is having issues on the tree it is always the stage. What has worked best for us is using a properly configured PortaTree to stay "warm" when not racing. You need to have it configured with the proper rollout which is very important if you want to cut good lights in the car.

Just my .02 from the past years coaching a very good and respected driver....

There are some great comments here, but the common thread is "how to cut a better light". In the old days there was a fantastic magazine called Bracket Racing USA (BRUSA). It dealt solely with bracket racing, and offered tons of excellent advice for beginners, which I was at the time. Important factors like staging exactly the same every time, running the exact same air pressure every run, making sure to hit your shift points on a run, and "leaving with the same RPM" all stuck with me. This magazine taught me to keep a log book for all my runs. It also taught me that purchasing a practice tree is cheaper than taking your car to the track to tune your launch practices. I used to attempt make 100 wins on the practice tree every night. I would track my wins vs. losses. I found that as I got better on the tree, my only losses were a very rare slow light, and mostly they were due to going red. Funny thing...in the beginning I tried to cut a .500 light (that's .000 to you young guns). That caused me to go red a lot. It showed in my practice results as well as my actual racing. The practice tree that I used came pre-set to give a win at .530 (.030 today). I found that if I tried to cut a .015 light, I would still go green if I was a bit early, and if I was a bit late, I was still better than .030. .030 lights win lots of rounds. The best advice I could give anyone on here...get a practice tree. I'll be lurking to see what else pops up here.

On your deal with them little bitty front tires, they will punish the driver every time they stage different
Lots of variables on the car and driver that need a lot of attention and work to make a good driver good

Man Al! That's great thinking and parenting by the way. You did Dad right and it shows in your family. Steven's been sending it! To the machine shop...
Practice tree is great but those buttons are nothing like what you have in a car and can throw you for a loop. I guess you could get a full size tree and actually suit up and practice in the car if you had the correct tree distance.
A few JR's I've seen actually have to have a little disc around the outside of the wheel. The spoke rims are so close to the ground that the beam breaks when it's rolling in, turning on the top light, then it goes out because the little thing goes under the beam. Really confuses the kids sometimes. So, yeah, staging is ultra important no matter the size of the front tire.

Dave, you can reset a 7530t box by hooking it to 12 volts for 12 hours. By then the weekend is shot, as you said, a loose crank trigger sensor can cause it to go into limp-in. Ask me how I know.

Thank God we were at a Div. race and one of Cookies buddy's had it happen to him so we found out. But we still missed a qualifier. Didn't know about the leaving it on thing. Good info!

Well Cab, all I can tell you is that a 1/16 of an inch is the difference between a good light and a bad one. When you are living on the edge of the red light it can make the difference. She will roll into the beams and just light the stage light (not flicker but solid). She tries not to go deeper as that will cause variance in the stage. I've see her on numerous occasions go back to back identical reaction times. The quality of the light begins with the stage, no two ways about it. I can tell what kind of a light she will have just by how she stages the car. If she does go in deeper, she will lift her foot off the pedal to compensate.

It is ALL about consistency. On the starting line with the car and your mindset.

As for practice trees, it is like hitting a baseball of a tee. Players never enjoy it but its all about muscle memory. You do not need to be in your car suited up and have a full size tree to reap the benefits. Any ole practice tree or app on your phone will work just fine. Its about teaching and working the muscles used in letting go of the button. Would setting in your car fully dressed with a full size tree and your car staged exactly how it would be on the track be beneficial, I am sure it would be especially mentally to the driver. But its not necessary. Just teaching yourself and your muscles involved to react to a flash is what you are after. Don't look for a .000 every time either. What is truly important is grouping numbers together. That is teaching you to react consistently to the flash. Nothing can be done if you CANNOT group your reaction times together consistently over a small margin. FWIW both my son and I can usually be around a .005-.007 grouping. In otherwords not varying more than .005-.007 from best to worst.

Once you can get a tight grouping its just putting it into practice on the track. Does it mean you will be .005, nope. But you can adjust the car to help get it to react quicker. Be it an adjustable switch, delay box, tire pressure, launch rpm etc. Then it is time to make the car consistent. That is one I think MANY people don't work hard enough on this area at all. Not to mention you need to learn to be a jr meteorologist especially if running division stuff or multi day big dollar bracket races where they don't run times runs daily. The there is the whole driving line strategy part and knowing your opponents...On and on....

Lots of good comments here from both sides of the fence.

Somebody mentioned that it takes the money out of the equation, but I disagree. Most of the hitters in box racing have multiple cars and multiple entries at multiple races every weekend. Not that there aren't no-boxers doing the same, but my observation has been far more box racers have the means to do so. More cars/entries means more shots at the tree, which means more practice. Look at the NHRA sportsman national champions over the last few years and see how many of them run 2 cars at national events. From Super Comp on down to Stock...

Also, more $$ means a faster car, which in ET racing the faster car still has 2 advantages: 1. the opponent has the 1st chance to redlight, and 2. Coming from behind makes it easier to judge the stripe. Easy? NO! Easier, yes...lol

A box only gives you an obvious advantage if you are the only one that has it. Don't think that just because you get a box that you will win races. It comes down to practice, consistency, and even some LUCK.

I agree fully. You can't go for the throat by setting up for a tight light if your spread is wide. Leaving off the bottom is even tougher to keep the grouping tight.
Doug

A practice tree can be beneficial. I have one of the Biondo full size units. Set it up in the shop in front of my car. Made a jumper harness to allow me to use the switch in the car instead of the little button that the came with the practice tree. That way you're using the same switch, hand position, etc. as when you are racing. Also allows you to experiment with different switches, hand positions or what ever. And you verify switch function.

We had kids coming out of Juniors jumping right into .90 cars. A kid with 8 or 9 years experience and 17 year old, video game tuned up hand-eye coordination could embarrass an old man if he wasn't on his game.

Definitely advantageous to start them young. Should be a law against it or something...