Doesn't look like I'll be back soon...

This is what I found.

Head. 440-1

Stock block...

Looks like Detonation effects damage for sure..? Whats the compression and fuel octane combo?

Weld the head, deck block back at it.

That's a good point! I don't know the exact compression as I went from an 88cc chamber to a 72 cc when I put the -1's on it. It was blue printed at 12.9 originally. I was running 116 Sunoco as it was the same price as 114 at the Sonoma pump. I scored a basically free barrell of VP 110. It sure seemed to like the VP fuel better.
I went over the block with a scotch brite wheel and it just has this little etch. I think I'll run it for the last couple races after getting the head fixed. With some better ⛽️!

I had the same thing happen years ago on a set of original 1962/63 max wedge heads on my old bracket car, them dang Perma Toque gaskets melted a deep groove between the #4 and #6 cylinders on the block and heads
I had them both cast iron welded and had to have a shop, Valley Head service, grind both of them flat on their wet surfacing machine
All the other shops I contacted in SO CA back then said they wouldn't attempt to cut the block or the heads on their surfacing machines
You got really lucky on that block

happened to a buddy of mine and then to us. thats why we use victor reintz or cometic. felpros are not good for us. never had another problem with vr or cometics.

Cometic's this time as I had the Felpro's laying around and never had a problem with them. Until now. Yeah Cab, luck has been good to me with this engine. Although I never really ran it after the problem occurred. Just enough to find out it wasn't ignition related. Plugs actually came out first this time and really told the whole story.

Fel-Pros suck!

Cometics here and zero issues!

Fill the groove with JB weld and hand file flat. Get the head fixed. Use something other than Felpro. Run it. When I was burning up Felpro gaskets, I called them. They told me that their perma-torque and race gaskets both hold to a max of 12:1 compression. At the time, I changed over to the orange gaskets from Dvorjak racing out of Florida. Never had a problem again, until I started cracking 915 castings.

I don't know that they actually suck. They went nearly 5 years and won a division championship. I think I was just a little too hard on the beaver Ward. Yes Cometic is a better product.

17059 Fel-pro Marine gaskets forever at just 12.1.1 and even reused em after a Pettis dyno session years ago..........do you run a wide band to verify/compare plug readings too............

No O2's. Dom, do you know what the compression might be if it was 12.9 with an 88cc and changed to a 72cc chamber? Know any mathematicians?

Lots of math guys on here can answer that but I would think it would jump a bunch........you NEED a wb my man...........

Plug your engine specs. into United Machine(KB) on line compression calculator with both size CC and see the results
Probably around 15.+ to 1

Yep, I get 15.6:1

Thanks guys! Wow! That much? Time for Q16...I've been meaning to do it for awhile now, might as well bite the bullet...Piston to valve is better than .120, time for a .027 gasket and way more cam...

If you're going to Q you better have the carb specked and sized for it.............

I don't know how aggressive you are with your Scotch-Brite wheel but ANY removal of material in this area of the deck lessens the torque applied to the gasket in this critical area. Remember that if the issue reoccurs.
Just an FYI for anybody cleaning deck surfaces in general.

Personally I'll choose a razor blade, solvent and a rag to clean the deck surface. If it shines like new.... you removed material. Scotch-Brite has no business around an engine anyway.

You don't clean up everything with a scotch brite wheel? Of course I'm not aggressive with it, just enough to clean it up. Nothing a little air and a shop vac. won't handle.

Not the first time I've seen this. Usually iron heads at 40-42 degrees timing. It is detonation. I'll bet between cylinders 4/6 or 3/5? More heat there with the paired exhaust ports. No gasket will withstand detonation forever. 15.9-1 needs a decent gasket for sure. The real question is what caused the detonation? How much timing? How much cam timing? How is the oil control in the cylinder? How do the rod bearings look? For what its worth my 572, -1, runs 15-1 on Renegade 114 , Cometics, studs, 32 degrees, 285@.050, 112LCA in at 108. Never an issue. Reused the gaskets 3 times, 450 passes.
Doug

Just FYI ... stochiometric for Q is in the mid 13s while gas is mid 14s so the carb will be lean by almost a full point if you don't rejet for Q.

Do you need a Q16 carb? I have a 1250 Dominator that is set up for Q16 that I've been thinking about selling. Running Q16 requires a lot more than just bigger jets. BLP converted my carb for Q16 and they changed the metering blocks, bleeds, jets and upper jets.

Of course if you are running EFI then you just type in some new numbers and you're locked and loaded for Q!

Yeah I need a new carb, can I afford it? No. Thanks for the offer! What's your opinion on cleaning up gasket surfaces with a red scotch brite wheel? Andy? Rich? It's always worked great for me. Note that this engine has been raced, pretty soft really, going 10.90 for about 5 years with the -1's and some wfo brackets now and then. The entire engine was freshened in 2012. -1's added at the beginning of 2014. It always ran on 114 or 116 until I got that dreaded barrel of 110. I think 15-1 is a little high of an estimate as ootb -1's are SAID to be 72cc and haven't actually been measured.

Get the shortblock OUT and upside down or at least perpendicular (for cleaning debris) so you can LAP that void out. LAP the whole deck surface, not just locally. See what it takes LOCALLY to get a feel for how deep the void is and if it can be removed. I'd get a feel for WHERE the loading 'ring' of whatever gasket you using is in relation to the void. You can probably take about .003" out pretty easily...just takes patience and time.

I'm definitely not taking the engine from the car right now. It only has a couple of races to go to finish the season. I'll fix a bunch of stuff this winter. I will clean up the whole surface using a shop vac and my wheel, I have Cometic's on order and cross my fingers using some Sunoco 116 for now. Hopefully I can get the head fixed in time for Sunday. Taking them apart now.

sometimes "good enough" will get you through.... hope you can fix her up!!

Dave like we talked yesterday for what you have planned just proceed as necessary. Get the head fixed and throw a decent gasket on it and watch it. Is it optimal, no but will it get you buy the rest of the year, likely so. Obviously the 110 was the biggest issue and the piston tops show some detonation. Watch the oil pressure as well as detonation will KILL rod bearings.

As for the carb, I have one sitting at home ready for Q if you need it. Say the word and it will be on its way. Or send me yours, we can make it ready for Q. Just say the word.

Also the dragster is sitting at the house waiting for you if you need it too. Wish I was closer you could use it this weekend. If you need it to finish out the year or at the ET finals its all yours. Also if you need any bits and pieces I am sure we can help. I have a fresh set of heads as well as the carb..

I thought the Cometics needed a very fine finish to seal no scratches like above...............

They can be used with a bit rougher surface than they call for. Since he's trying to finish the year I agree with Al. He will be just fine to finish the year.

Pretty damn nice of Al to offer him a carb or to tune up his.

That Al guy is pretty cool.............

If I need to use a steel gasket with a less than perfect surface I spray on a liberal coat of copper coat, seems to work ok around here even though that is not what the manufacturers call for.

There's no water to worry about at that location. I wouldn't sweat it at all.

Thanks for all the confidence guys! Al, you are the MAN!!! You know what's mine is also yours and when you or Steven want to race my car it's all yours. He's a fricken bada$$ by the way...
Dropped the heads off with Angie tonight and she will tune them up proper. Should have 'em back by Thursday, I gotta get busy. Shout out to Dave's Machine and Mopar Engines West for accommodating my last minute needs.
I was planning on tacking the gaskets up with copper seal keeping my fingers crossed. I will get the engine out this winter and give it a proper freshen up and then probably sell it or maybe the whole shebang. I am dropping in a fresh set of roller lifters and resealing the intake which needed to be done anyway. Should make a little more vacuum. It's amazing to me that this little 493 has been so great. It's a happy camper and I am pretty ashamed of not taking better care of it in the fuel department. I'm glad it wasn't a complete meltdown lesson.

Probably would'nt hurt ya if you pulled a couple degrees of timing out of her also. Thats a lot of compression.

Head is fixed. Now if Summit would just show up...

The engine likes 34 degrees and really hates anything but. 116 from now on.

That will seal fine with a cometic. You are close to pooping in the tall cotton.

Dave I wish I still had pictures to show you what happened to me years ago. I had a .030 440 engine that ran 9.80's 30 plus years ago with a stock block and ported 906 heads. I was going rounds but the car kept slowing every round so I kept bumping my dial slower. I lost in the final on Sunday afternoon and loaded up and when I took a leakdown i could tell there was an issue between cylinder 3 and 5 so I pulled the head. Both my block and head were torched over .125 so after a day of making phone calls found a guy 25 miles away that said to bring it over. The head was no problem but with the engine still in the car I lowered the pistons as much as I could and wrapped the cylinders with keyowool and and fiberglass cloth. He checked it out and said he could do it in the car but asked me how I could machine it. As a Millwright we did stuff like this everyday so I told him I would get it close with a 3 inch grinder and then file it to within .002-.003 and it would seal. He said he would charge me 125.00 to weld both the head and block. I then gave him some nickel stick welding rod we used in the mill. He called the next day (Wednesday) and said it was done so I flew up to get my Duster. When I took a look the whole job was finished and filed flat. He told me he couldn't believe that it could be done so he had to try. He did a great job and when I asked how much I owed he said 100.00 (25.00 less than quoted) for more work. He said hey I learned something and by doing that he would be able to apply it in his trade. I put it back together Thursday after work and raced Friday night. That block is still in a street car today and the heads are in my downstairs garage.

Wow! Quite the ordeal there Pittsburgh! I think the engine will be ok for as little as I'm going to run it. It is in some serious need of some lovin'! This winter I will see what I can do to get after it. It's just the same old story... Build a better watch, then we need a parachute and we took 150lbs. off the nose and on and on...

Stopped by Sonoma Raceway for some of this on the way back from picking up my cylinder heads.

make you wear a chem suit to pump that stuff in Kali yet?

Ten bux a gallon is cheep. I'm paying $90 a pail for Q16

Yep. 9.99 is as high as the pump goes. Good deal I think. My original topic is completely stupid it looks like. Counting the chickens...
I unwrapped my rebuilt 829 lifters and the came in this broken up package with little pieces in all of it.

Is it ok to use this tool on this engine part?

I used this stuff on this and that.

Got the heads torqued down.

I use them a lot on that type of stuff

I'm sitting here enjoying my favorite, ice cold beverage. Still have to screw the plugs in it but I pumped all the fuel out of it and filled it with 116. I added about a gallon and half of distilled water and half a bottle of water wetter. I tightened everything up on top of the manifold and cleaned the carb. I'll wait until tomorrow to fire it and double check what kind of timing I got going on. Last time I set it and phased the dis. It was 34 degrees locked and like I posted before this engine really kind of hates everything but 34.

Sooner than previously anticipated. Runs good. Good oil pressure good vacuum. The timing is still at 34.
https://www.facebook.com/dave.hall.90260/videos/10212403445294963/

That is good. Motor sounds nice and ratty.

Nice to hear it running again.

Taking it to Sacramento tomorrow for the last points race. Nat. Dragster Challenge Wally race.

thought we were going to see if that roloc disc would remove that indy logo

Sac still doomed?

That would be a great tool for that!
As far as I know, still doomed. I haven't been there since March 19 or something.

Here's the car cleaned up and ready to go.

Good luck today Dave.

I had my share of luck. It was pretty cool going 4 rds. after not being in the car for 4 months. Super fun day texting Al all day. My best packs were .023 and .024. I think I secured my spot in the top 5 and will look at the points when they are sorted out over the next couple days. By all of my unofficial accounting I am 4 or 5 which is the accomplishment of the goal I had set when getting this deal back together. I am a little concerned about the oil pressure as the racepak showed oil pressure starting at around 83 pds. when I let go of the button to down around 70lbs. at the 7,200rpm stripe. It was always above where it left at in all previous downloads. I think I might have beat on the bearings a bit as well and was lucky a torched head was the only pitfall. I could have destroyed this thing running that 110 octane fuel and learned a hard lesson. Detonation is NOT your friend. I'll look into pressing some bearings into it before I head towards Vegas.

Ended up 4th in points. Heading to the R O C baby!

VERY nice. What did you end up running after your repairs.

I was dialed 9.46 all day. 1st time trial in the morning went 9.36 at 145. I shift at 1.50 and leave at 4,000 so it is set up soft and shifts while still on the converter.

Good deal now go kick some butt.

Glad you made it with a spot to spare even That 4th round loss has to have been your worst one of the year there See you in Vegas in October!

Can't wait!